[2008] Southcape Resort

[e.bram]

ecwinch: The $750.00 referred to the MF as a wholey owned condo unit. That is what I pay for my condo on Monmouth Beach, NJ. Of course if doesn't include maid service, furnishing etc found in a TS. I only meant it to compare condo units MFs to TSunits MFs. Only a owner governed TS will be able to obtain minimal MFs. Where the owners don't control the board who can say what conflicts of interest can do to the MFs, no matter what the controling entity says .

 

[NEVMSLLC]

You're right Eric. Those numbers are completely unrealistic. Good management can hold the line on fees but as utilities, taxes, payroll and other expenses climb, so do maintenance fees even if the resort had 100% collections. Just a fact of life.

E.bram!! You're now comparing a timeshare resort to a theme park??? When I was young, we had Storyland and Frontiertown on Cape Cod and both are closed now as well. I've lived on Cape Cod all my life and your suggestions about a shortening season here are just not in line with the facts. How do you make this stuff up? Other than the Cap'n Gladcliff, name me one other sold out resort that's failed in New England? Go ahead, I'm waiting . . .

I don't know why Wyndham closed their office but mine's still going strong after 17 years! I'm still selling for one reason only, there's value in owning timeshare!! Nobody knows that better than I do, it's how I make my living.

 

[ecwinch]

ecwinch:
If selling off season TSs is that easy, how come Wyndham in Newport RI closed their sales offices. I guess they were not professional enough?Did not have enough expierence? I am not part of thr problem, only a messenger. The climate in the northeast does not allow for an all season resort operation. I remember 50 years ago Freedomland(Bronx) ande Coney Island(Brooklyn) went belly up because they could not survive the short season. Disneyland in Ca and Fl thrive.

I think it is an oversimplification to suggest that Coney Island is an illustrative example of your position of the challenges of the short season. The factors were more complicated than that. And Coney Island still exists, though in a far different form than from it's heyday.

I am not suggesting that selling the off-season weeks is easy, nor do I profess to be knowledgable about Cape Cod in general. But suggesting that only condos can thrive in short season destinations is not accurate either. In that regard, the Ponzi points systems you have faulted actually provide the solution. Their model is that owners of enough points to secure a unit in that short season pay a greater share of the costs than the guy who only has enough points to get a unit in the off-season.

But this whole sideline is hijacking this thread about the Southcape. If you want to debate the viability of short-season destinations, that might be better served by a new thread on the subject.

 

[e.bram]

My posts are relevent since Southcape is the epitome of a short season inland TS and the viability problems they face not being controlled by the owners. This is necessary for this type for this resort to survive. Conry Island died because the land is more valuable for use for an all year around use such as residential and the associated comercial use. Memorial day to Labor day uses cannot provide the revenue needed to maintain the land value.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

O.K., Cliff, we both didn't hear each other 100% accurately. I recall you saying to me that you were at that meeting, and I recall something about buying a week on eBay for $1.00 but as previously posted we may not have accurately recalled all that was said. It was a rather long conversation and you were on your cell phone on the way to Southcape so you couldn't have been giving me 100% of your attention.

Reread the post. I was referring to Outfield Marketing but if the shoe fits, by all means, wear it!

As for the use of the word "swindle" it's 100% appropriate in the case of Outfield Marketing which owns NEVS along with you (see Post #407)!

OK Sou13, glad to know you weren't libeling me, just Outfield . . . oh, yes, and NEVS.

FYI, I went back and reread all of your posts and here is exactly what you said:

"BTW Cliff Hagberg is one of those Southcape interval owners who found one on eBay for $1! So don't be fooled into thinking that he has Southcape's best interests at heart!"

"As I previously warned, let's not let ourselves be swayed by a smooth-talking salesman (Cliff Hagberg)! "

"From that point on I had to caution myself not to be taken in by a smooth talking salesman, which I perceive Cliff Hagberg to be."

After having read all of your posts, I guess i just assumed that you mean that the swindling, smooth-talking salesman was me . . .

Still think I didn't hear you accurately? BTW, I still think it might be libelous whether it was me or Outfield or NEVS.

 

[Carolinian]

Any resort management that would subject its members to the predatory hard sell intimidating marketing pressure of a points scheme like Festiva is simply not working in its members interest, especially when such a scheme can potentially let the likes of Festiva get control of the resort. It is time for new management. Any developer or subsequent developer that wears out their welcome by keeping control long after they should have relinquished it to the members should be ashamed of themselves and finally get a clue that it is time to let go.

 

[tombo]

Just a fact of life.
I've lived on Cape Cod all my life and your suggestions about a shortening season here are just not in line with the facts. How do you make this stuff up? waiting . . .

.

Hi honey, I 'm back. Miss me? The FACTS about seasonal demand are available in black and white on Interval International.

This is the SOUTHSCAPE'S travel demand index on Interval International. Click on the blue line on the right which says "Travel Demand Index":

http://www.intervalworld.com/web/cs?a=1503&resortCode=SOU&parentResortCode=SOU

Weeks 1-6, worthless, week 7 low demand, week 8 almost worthless,in fact you don't have an above average demand week until week 20. Of course weeks 25 to 34 are the highest demand weeks at Southscape (surprise, surprise). then the demand starts falling until week 43 which is an average demand week. Weeks 44 -52 are more of the pesky low demand weeks you say don't exist. More than half of the year is below average demand weeks at Southscape.

Cliff, how do you make this stuff up? Waiting......

 

[e.bram]

Cliff:
You are right about there being a lot of activity on the Lower Cape by year round residents(retirees and Wood's Hold employees etc).It upholds my point of view.It bodes ill for for TSs since it enhances the value of the real estate so that seasonal activity is no longer feasible. The developments are worth mush more for condos(all year) and less for seasonal use(the area loses it's resort flavor and becomes a residential community). The exception is for oceanfront TSs managed properly since the waterfront location have more of a universal appeal.
My expieence with TSs consists owning 6 weeks and having to pay MFs and SAs comparing the managment of varios TSs. As well as the location of the TS with respect to it's desirability. I managment comercial real estate and has expierenced maintaining the structures and dealing the the financial aspects of operating real estate. Having owned(no matter by whom) units not contributing MFs and SAs id bad, like having a deadbeat tenant, worse than vacant space.

 

[tombo]

I do understand, Eric and I'm answering you again only because I have heard of owner's concerns about sales.

We did have several instances of a situation where I was convinced that there was an actual problem. I called Outfield and learned the sale rep's name. I then contacted other owners who had appointments with this particular sales rep and when I heard the same statements from other owners, it quickly became apparent that there was a problem with this sales rep.

When I contacted Outfield with my results, Outfield's reaction was to immediately terminate this particular sales rep as he was simply lying to people. .

Could the terminated sales rep be Steve Lamantia? Some of what he said is questionable at the least." 50% of RCI & II have already converted their units to points and pretty soon that number will go to 70%". I don't believe those percentages are anywhere close to accurate. There are far more weeks owners in RCI than points owners. He also told this Southscape owner that if they didn't swap their weeks for Festiva points that they wouldn't be able to sell them, because nobody wants them.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html

You say that you are selling many Southscape weeks for $1995 to over $22,000. Somebody apparently wants those weeks and they are very valuable according to your own posts. You say that you take weeks from owners and sell them. Steve says that can't be done. Who is the poor owner to believe? A lie is being told by someone, either you or Steve. Are the weeks valuable and in high demand as you state, or are they worthless and not worth owning as Steve says? If Steve is telling the truth, boy are you in trouble since you own 500 worthless weeks.

Gee E.bram, I guess the buyers for the 31 sales I've had on Cape Cod so far this month haven't read your doom and gloom posts. You might also be surprised to realize that the prices range from $1,995 to $22,000 and that's without a developer and no marketing at all. I take listings from owners wanting to sell their weeks and i actually sell them..

If Lamantia has been terminated, then that leaves a trustee spot open. Here is a great idea. Why don't you fill the empty trustee spot with an owner who has no connection to NEVS, Outfield marketing, or Festiva so someone can look out for the owner's best interests. Let someone be a trustee and have a say in the future of Southscape who actually pays MF's and assessments at Southscape.

If Lamantia is still employed and is still a trustee, you could still appoint an owner to be a trustee that is not associated with NEVS, Outfield, or Festiva anyway as a sign that there is nothing to hide. You could still outvote them 3 to 1, but it would make owners feel like they have some input. By the way, this is not a unique approach. In fact most resorts have more owners with no ties to sales or developers on the board than there are board members with developer/sales affiliations. The shocker to you might be the fact that most boards at sold out resorts are composed entirelly of owners with no ties to any developer or sales organization.

If Lamantia is still using the same lines and still employed as a salesman (and I assume still training the new salesman on how to sell and what to say), then some of your supposed concern for the owner's well being seems to be empty promises. I wouldn't be surprised if the terminated employee was actually terminated for lack of sales rather than lack of ethics.

 

[Fig]

Who is the poor owner to believe? A lie is being told by someone, either you or Steve...If Lamantia is still using the same lines and still employed as a salesman (and I assume still training the new salesman on how to sell and what to say), then some of your supposed concern for the owner's well being seem to be empty promises.

Tombo, great post. It's interesting that Lamantia is even a trustee at all. One former post had him attending a meeting by phone..maybe because he is in TX? What possible interest could he have in serving in any capacity at SC? Because he is a "trustee" you maybe correct in your assumption that he is further up the food chain then say this guy was http://www.enw-asia.com/applicants_open.asp?id=117 and possibly could be training reps. But what is he training them in? Cliff has said that "Outfield is bringing owners up to date on what's happening at the resort and offering owners an additional vacation exchange opportunity by joining Festiva Adventure Club."
Another poster on the Sandcastle board said, "All they tell me is that they are not trying to sell me inventory and that Outfield merely calls people to schedule appointments. They claim there is no relationship between Outfield and either Festiva or New England Vacation Services."

Hmm...what is really going on here? To figure it out, follow the money. Steve is not paid to be a trustee. The first qualification on the Outfield Marketing reps resume is "selling." Does any rep get a penny for "bringing owners up to date?" Cliff claims to reign in bad Outfield Marketing people....but really, pay somebody handsomely to get a deed from someone and pay them nothing (or next to it) for "educating" an owner about the changes at South Cape and gee, you think they might be a little less than factual in their presentations?

 

[e.bram]

tombo:
Worthless weeks? remember he doesn't pay MFs of SAs. When the development goes condo, he'll reap.

 

[tombo]

tombo:
Worthless weeks? remember he doesn't pay MFs of SAs. When the development goes condo, he'll reap.

According to Cliff, he bought the 500 weeks to sell, and according to Cliff they are selling very well and selling for a lot of money. Steve said they are worthless. It is so hard to determine who is telling the truth. I am going to believe Cliff since he still respects me.

Everyone who is going to attend an owners update, please print a copy of the post showing how much Cliff is selling weeks at Southscape for. When the Outfield sales rep tells you that your weeks are worthless unless you convert to Festiva, show him the paper and tell them that the head of NEVS (who employs them to sell Festiva) is currently selling weeks for $20,000 or more. He can't tell you that Cliff is full of Bull because Cliff is Outfields boss. This will shut them up.

 

[Fig]

According to Cliff, he bought the 500 weeks to sell, and according to Cliff they are selling very well and selling for a lot of money. Steve said they are worthless. It is so hard to determine who is telling the truth. I am going to believe Cliff since he still respects me.

Everyone who is going to attend an owners update, please print a copy of the post showing how much Cliff is selling weeks at Southscape for. When the Outfield sales rep tells you that your weeks are worthless unless you convert to Festiva, show him the paper and tell them that the head of NEVS (who employs them to sell Festiva) is currently selling weeks for $20,000 or more. He can't tell you that Cliff is full of Bull because Cliff is Outfields boss. This will shut them up.

Touche', Tombo!

 

[Sou13]

I'm back!

OK Sou13, glad to know you weren't libeling me, just Outfield . . . oh, yes, and NEVS.

FYI, I went back and reread all of your posts and here is exactly what you said:

"BTW Cliff Hagberg is one of those Southcape interval owners who found one on eBay for $1! So don't be fooled into thinking that he has Southcape's best interests at heart!"

"As I previously warned, let's not let ourselves be swayed by a smooth-talking salesman (Cliff Hagberg)! "

"From that point on I had to caution myself not to be taken in by a smooth talking salesman, which I perceive Cliff Hagberg to be."

After having read all of your posts, I guess i just assumed that you mean that the swindling, smooth-talking salesman was me . . .

Still think I didn't hear you accurately? BTW, I still think it might be libelous whether it was me or Outfield or NEVS.

Oh, good, you saved me the trouble of finding those "untruths"!

And while in the case of the reply to Sanford's post about his telephone conversation I may have been referring to Outfield Marketing, now that we have the managing partner of NEVS online it does appear that we're all being taken in by a smooth-talking salesman. And what more proof do we have than the self-proclaimed ability to be so successful at selling timeshares for 20 years?

As for the libelous suggestion, it can't be libelous if it's not "untruth"!

I must have had wax in my ears when I was on the telephone with Cliff Hagberg. I heard something he claims he didn't say. And I'm still confused about IVS and why we need Outfield Marketing if Cliff Hagberg has been so successful at selling timeshares. Oh, that's right, we need Outfield Marketing to convince us to give up our deeds to our timeshares!

And yes, I still think you don't recall our conversation with 100% accuracy. Why don't you try giving me another call? You might even be surprised at who answers!

 

[Sou13]

In Retrospect

Hindsight is 20/20. In retrospect I’m now convinced that after meeting with Greg Hughes and listening to his scare tactics I should have kissed Southcape goodbye and just walked away. So what if I couldn’t use my split week in 2009? Is it worth nearly $1,000 to have to put up with the “changes” at the resort I once loved?

I’ve been looking at Redweek.com and I see summer weeks for rent for $700-900. And looking at the rates and accommodations to rent outright from the resort, I could rent that split week for $700! Depending on which units are to be upheavaled in the fall, I might not have the unit I reserved after all. So what’s the value of owning a week when I have no say in what happens at Southcape?

I finally had a conversation with my son and daughter-in-law about their week at Belgrade Lakes last summer. They told me that it cost them $1000+100 deposit for the dogs. They split the cost with my daughter-in-law's brother and everyone had a great time. No pets at Southcape! That’s one of the reasons my firstborn didn’t join me there last year! That and that it's just not worth the trip!

So what’s there to do at Southcape? It looks as though if you stay there this spring you can’t even use the pool! How long does it take to paint a pool, and what are the owners and exchangers and guests supposed to do until the pool reopens?

Thank you, tombo, for your contributions to this discussion, especially about the need for owners on the board of trustees. Hear! Hear!

I’m so glad that Cliff Hagberg finally took the time to read all my posts. Now if only he’d answer my questions!

 

[tombo]

And I'm still confused about IVS and why we need Outfield Marketing if Cliff Hagberg has been so successful at selling timeshares. Oh, that's right, we need Outfield Marketing to convince us to give up our deeds to our timeshares!

Great point. If Cliff can save resorts by himself through his tried and true marketing program, why does he need Outfield? He is the self proclaimed savior of many resorts who hired him to sell their non paying HOA owned weeks. Now he is still telling us how many weeks he is selling and how much he is selling them for, but he isn't explaining why he needs Outfield to sell weeks at Southscape. Reckon that Festiva/Outfield is paying Cliff to have access to the Southscape owners to sell Festiva points and to allow them to gain ownership of deeded weeks? Do you think Cliff might get a percentage of each Outfield/Festiva sale? I don't know the exact situation, but I can assure you that Cliff didn't hire Outfield to sell Festiva out of altruistic motives and he didn't appoint 2 Outfield Marketing owners as trustees because they were nice guys. Cliff is enriching himself or I feel positive that neither Outfield or Festiva would be involved in Southscape.

Cliffy, why do you have Outfield selling Festiva to owners when you can handle everything yourself? Please enlighten the owners as to what is in it for you.

 

[ecwinch]

Cliff,

I do not mean for this to be argumentative, but there seems to be dearth of happy Southcape owners that are posting on this board. The absence of at least one happy owner posting of TUG would seem to run counter to your previous assertions. I was curious on why you thought that might be, as in most threads you get at least one owner who sees the half-empty glass as half-full. Is it:

- Happy owners do not participate on TUG

- There are happy owners that participate on TUG, but they chose not to post

- There are happy owners that participate on TUG, but are afraid to post as they do not want to be "beat" down by the angry owners

- TUG is only for the vocal minority. Timeshare owners as a group are mostly apathetic, so no conclusion can be drawn by the absence of posts from happy owners

You have previously represented that you have spoken to many owners that are happy with the changes in progress at Southcape. However we have not seen any posts from happy Southcape owners or owners at your other projects. Would it be helpful to ask some or even one of them to post here?

My desire for balance cries out to hear from someone from that group. If any happy NEVS resort owner is out there and has not posted, please do so. I think your opinion would be respectfully heard. At least with me.

Thanks

 

[ecwinch]

Great point. If Cliff can save resorts by himself through his tried and true marketing program, why does he need Outfield?

See Cliff's previous post. Outfield is a co-owner with NEVS of the development rights at Southcape. It is a recipical business relationship.

I think the only dog in that hunt goes back to the original question from way back of why the Southcape member's personal information were provided to Outfield for solicitation of business not directly related to Southcape. FestivaRep's statements that it is an affiliated business is weak at best. Likewise is the argument that Cliff has suggested - to offer them additional ways to use their Southcape ownership.

I know Citi bank got into the same problem with they acquired Travellers Insurance, and Travellers began soliciting Citi bank customers. Putting a brochure in a mailing is one thing, but active solicitation based on personal information you obtain from a non-related business relationship is another.

Toward that end, it would be important for someone to document what Outfield is saying when they attempt to arrange their appointments. Saying upfront that we want to talk to you about Festiva is one thing. Saying we want to update you on changes at Southcape, and then turning that into an in-home sales presentation about Festiva is another thing entirely. Government agencies tend to take a dim view of people entering someone's home under false pretenses.

 

[SCapeOwnersRUS]

It SIMPLY IS NOT RIGHT THAT.....

Nevs Outfield and Festiva are all in cahoots together and to some end that
is not being apparently disclosed...

There is apparent subtrafuge here and it seems as if there MAY be practices and modalities which should be looked into by regulatory and the Attorney General's office of the Commonwealth of Mass. to insure that the deeded homeowners are not being taken advantage of by the interconnected relations of Outfield NEVS and Festiva to the detriment of the deeded owners.

Also is it a possibility that there is an ethics oversight board of the board of realtors that could look into things as well ?

 

[Sou13]

Southcape Annual Reports

I'm looking at the annual reports filed at
http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/co...ReadFromDB=True&UpdateAllowed=&FEIN=042922230 and wondering why reports for 2002-2005 weren't filed until 2005. The report dated Nov. 1, 2005 is dated July 1, 2005!

 

[london]

Many Posts Over Almost 6 Months

I am continually amazed at how some threads can go for months with hundreds of posts.

Another one that I am personally involved in, is the "wanted weeks" thread.

TUG serves all owners with an array of many topics, both general in nature, and the like Southcape that has a limited audience.

The Southcape saga is a long way from being over, it appears.

 

[Sou13]

Southcape owners' advisory group

"Wrong again, Sou13. I haven't left at all. I'm still here." http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=701795#post701795

Referring back to the post that occasioned this reply, it looked as though we were no longer having questions answered.

Meanwhile, as a volunteer to be on the "advisory council" I have been forwarding questions which have been going unanswered. I have been implicated by inuendo of posting "untruths" and "misrepresentations" which can be corrected here, and anyone reading my posts frequently finds me asking to be corrected if I'm mistaken or wrong.

My discomfort with the Outfield Marketing and Festiva Adventure Club has grown even more since learning what we now know about the situation. Membership in Interval International and RCI has always been optional for interval owners, but membership in the Festiva Adventure Club requires Southcape owners to surrender their deeds to the FAC trust, and pay Outfield Marketing at least $3185 for the privilege!

I have yet to be contacted by any happy Southcape owners. Every owner who has contacted me is unhappy and concerned.

 

[Fig]

TUG serves all owners with an array of many topics, both general in nature, and the like Southcape that has a limited audience.

The Southcape saga is a long way from being over, it appears.

London, if I may venture a guess. Perhaps the "Southcape Saga" is of such interest because it appears someone, anyone, with a little bit of cash might be able to walk-in to a HOA, purchase some controlling units, form a limited partnership with a third party high pressure sales organization, appoint a couple of people from that sales organization as "trustees" and give them access to the personal data of long-time paying owners, so that sales reps can literally fly-in under the guise of "communicating changes at the HOA" while actually getting paid over $3,000 to get these owners to surrender their deeds and join another third party vacation club that has been cited by the Attorney General in MO for its sales practices. Maybe people are thinking, could this happen to my HOA? Just a wild guess.

 

[e.bram]

Since the area is becoming a year round area and Southcape is omn a large piece of property rogt on busy comercial Rt 28(very valuable), I believe that the intent is to bankrupt the TS so it can be sold with remaining deeded owners receiving the proceeds. Remember any club members will have ceeded the dees to the points club trust which will also go bankrupt probably delling their deeded rights to the developers. NEVMLLc and its' pwners will prosper.

 

[JackB62]

Southcape Master Deed and other issues

Hello All,

I have skimmed the last few pages and am really glad that I found this message board as I think every Southcape owner who wishes to remain an owner must try to communicate with each other.

We are at a severe disadvantage in our relationship with our own Board and I think this assessment issue is a perfect example of how we are being taken advantage of.

The way I understand the Master Deed it seems that there has been a blatant disregard for many of our legal rights.

Right now I can be listed as an UNHAPPY OWNER. I was at the resort last week and it is looking better than it has in years. However, I don't recall voting for the capital improvements (over $10,000) and I didn't know the work had started already. What happens if half of the owners walk away without paying the SA (as I almost did)and the rest of us are stuck with the bill?

How is the Board, which is supposed to have seven members, have a quorum to vote for the most expensive renovations in it's history? (There are only three members.) Can't they appoint at least one Interval Owner to be represented on the Board?

How do you have an SA with no budget list of what work is specifically being done and what the costs are?

I will be the first to say I am happy to see the resort upgraded from its' poor condition, but as an owner I feel I'm being pushed around and kept in the dark.