[2008] Belaire Golf Resort and Spa

[Jane Doe]

My wife and I have been owners with Belaire for over 4 months and we feel very comfortable with the progress there. We have already booked our our weeks for the Marriot there in Vallarta for our next vacation.
I suggest you see it yourself. If you dont trust it dont buy into it. Why risk trying to cancel later.

And it sounds like many of you have no idea about the 3 month rainy season there that can delay contruction. I know delay sucks but Belaire will be open in 2009

well, I worked there for one week in Feb. 2007 and not much has been done since then. This is the reason that if you tour the property once they don't allow you to tour again, it is the only resort I have heard of anywhere that doesn't permit you to ever come and see it again. So it was supposed to be up and running by Aug. 2007 and finished the spring of 2008. Well, obviously it is still not up and running. Just for comparison, the Riu Palace was started last November and is opening any day. So what is wrong with the time frame on a much much smaller resort?? Riu is about 1000 rooms, Belaire is only supposed to be what 150 or less? Besides read your contract belaire is not going to guarantee you can ever get in, it is on availability. Do you really believe they have not over sold it already. It is only one resort with thousands and thousands of owners now, just look at this bbs, and how many are not on here. Funny, though everything else gets built in the rainy season, as it only rains at night. Icon Vallarta is and was under construction all summer, same with Tres Mares, Penninsula, Aqua (which is also equally far behind), so many other condos like Nitta, Los Agaves, Villa Magna, and the list goes on. None stopped for the season. Can you imagine if everything here stopped just because of a little rain? LOL, 200,000 people out of work instantly just for the rain. Nothing changes here in the summer, it is just fewer tourists, and you drive slower in the construction areas because the roads get bad. So word to the wise, THEY'RE NOT BEHIND BECAUSE OF THE RAIN!!

 

[Jane Doe]

Well, since the post has been reopened I now have the opportunity to provide more facts.

First, I find it quite appauling that some of my earlier posts prior to the closing of this thread were completely removed. That definitely shows that this thread is not an unbiased source of information to those who may think and use TUG as a means for obtaining truthful facts.

So, I will reiterate what I said before in response to the post about Belaire being two years late. Belaire has not even been around for two years so it cannot be two years late. Again, this is another complete lie posted on this thread to try to give Belaire an undeserving bad image. As was discussed in an earlier post, the expectation was completion in September of 2008. Therefore, it will probably be about 6 - 8 months behind the orginal schedule.

Sounds like you work there or own it? Actually Belaire opened 2 years ago this month. Hmmmm, Since I worked there in Feb of 2007 that would make it at the very least, what 18moths??? and still not open?? Plus now, no helicopter pad and all the other pluses everyone was promised. All of your posts are very biased towards Belaire. One person in Vallarta commited suicide because his wife was going to leave him over them being broke, all because he had stayed working there believing in it. They owed him more than 200,000 dollars. Still think you didn't over pay? Plus the "manager" lady was owed 162,000 dollars when she quit. So I am sure they will for sure come through for their customers. I had one sale in the week I was there, funny it was never in the computer.

 

[Jane Doe]

Unfortunately for anyone who hoped to have access to the Registry Collection as a Belaire owner, that is no longer a possibility. After speaking with their representatives we learned that they were not getting the information updates they requested from Belaire.
Thast was confirmed by Jonathan Thomasello in his letter to the Belaire Owners which I previously posted.

As I posted before, they never had their own RC (Registry Collection) book, it was stolen by Nico from the Grand Mayan sales room. It even said GM in it on the outside and on the first page it said Grand Mayan. The week I worked there I saw so many things that were shady I left, one week was more than enough.

 

[Jane Doe]

P.S. Jonathan Thomasello (spelling is wrong I know) is Antonio's son. They have different names because Antonio has changed his several times.

 

[Great Dane]

Look at the section from the letter that was sent by Jonathan to the members concerning the Registry Collection. The complete letter is my post #292. I don't see where it says they will still become and affiliate when when it has the construction completed" as you've stated.

You obviously don't get all the Belaire communications or if you do, you only want to post those that you actually think are bad news. It was confirmed way down in this thread by another poster that checked with The Registry Collection and Belaire's status. What was being referred to in the newsletter communications when they said "it didn't work out they way the hoped" is that Belaire expected that when it paid its developer dues and the member fees for each new member that the members would be able to use the services right away not when the building was completed. Obviously, Belaire cares about their members and their ability to use their membership services so the did what it takes to put something in place.

 

[Great Dane]

Sounds like you work there or own it? Actually Belaire opened 2 years ago this month. Hmmmm, Since I worked there in Feb of 2007 that would make it at the very least, what 18moths??? and still not open?? Plus now, no helicopter pad and all the other pluses everyone was promised. All of your posts are very biased towards Belaire. One person in Vallarta commited suicide because his wife was going to leave him over them being broke, all because he had stayed working there believing in it. They owed him more than 200,000 dollars. Still think you didn't over pay? Plus the "manager" lady was owed 162,000 dollars when she quit. So I am sure they will for sure come through for their customers. I had one sale in the week I was there, funny it was never in the computer.

All of my posts are biased towards Belaire because I have proven all of the other information here biased against Belaire to be false. I am a member and I purchased in early 2007. I checked with the resort and they opened late in December 2006 so as I said they have not been around for 2 years yet. I was never promised there would be a helicopter pad. And if you only worked there for one week and haven't worked there for over a year and a half they I have a hard time believing any of what you say to be true.

 

[Great Dane]

This is the reason that if you tour the property once they don't allow you to tour again, it is the only resort I have heard of anywhere that doesn't permit you to ever come and see it again. Just for comparison, the Riu Palace was started last November and is opening any day. So what is wrong with the time frame on a much much smaller resort?? Riu is about 1000 rooms, Belaire is only supposed to be what 150 or less? Besides read your contract belaire is not going to guarantee you can ever get in, it is on availability. Do you really believe they have not over sold it already. It is only one resort with thousands and thousands of owners now, just look at this bbs, and how many are not on here. Funny, though everything else gets built in the rainy season, as it only rains at night. Icon Vallarta is and was under construction all summer, same with Tres Mares, Penninsula, Aqua (which is also equally far behind), so many other condos like Nitta, Los Agaves, Villa Magna, and the list goes on. None stopped for the season. Can you imagine if everything here stopped just because of a little rain? LOL, 200,000 people out of work instantly just for the rain. Nothing changes here in the summer, it is just fewer tourists, and you drive slower in the construction areas because the roads get bad. So word to the wise, THEY'RE NOT BEHIND BECAUSE OF THE RAIN!!

Again, your so called knowledge is not based on fact. None of the timeshare resorts allow people to take multiple tours. They all have databases of previous tours so that they don't end up paying for people to come on tours that just want the money and gifts but have no intention of purchasing.

Belaire did not stop development during the raining season. I chronicled my three visits to PV this year in an earlier post and the status of construction during each of my visits and it has not ever stopped. Belaire has never made any excuses about being behind because of the rain. Belaire has always kept its members updated on construction progess and other activities of the resort through its news letters. They were forthright in acknowledging they were behind schedule due to having to put the building piers into the ground 120 feet rather then their original plans of 33 feet.

As a comparison, I happened to sit on the plane my last trip down, next to the person in charge of construction of the St. Regis being built in Punta Mita. You will see that they broke ground over two years ago
http://www.puntamita.com.mx/resorts_st_regis.htm
on 120 rooms and the web site indicates they expected and early 2008 opening and as it turns out they will open on November 22, 2008. So, it is behind schedule by roughly 6 months and will have taken longer than Belaire to complete.

First, your information is incorrect. Second, the information proves nothing. The RIU Palace is 484 (not 1000) much smaller rooms than Belaire and yes it was completed in 1 year from the time they broke ground. It is 9 stories the same as Belaire and Belaire will complete in nearly one year from the time it broke ground (Feb 2008) as well.

 

[pammex]

Again, your so called knowledge is not based on fact. None of the timeshare resorts allow people to take multiple tours. They all have databases of previous tours so that they don't end up paying for people to come on tours that just want the money and gifts but have no intention of purchasing.

Belaire did not stop development during the raining season. I chronicled my three visits to PV this year in an earlier post and the status of construction during each of my visits and it has not ever stopped. Belaire has never made any excuses about being behind because of the rain. Belaire has always kept its members updated on construction progess and other activities of the resort through its news letters. They were forthright in acknowledging they were behind schedule due to having to put the building piers into the ground 120 feet rather then their original plans of 33 feet.

As a comparison, I happened to sit on the plane my last trip down, next to the person in charge of construction of the St. Regis being built in Punta Mita. You will see that they broke ground over two years ago
http://www.puntamita.com.mx/resorts_st_regis.htm
on 120 rooms and the web site indicates they expected and early 2008 opening and as it turns out they will open on November 22, 2008. So, it is behind schedule by roughly 6 months and will have taken longer than Belaire to complete.

First, your information is incorrect. Second, the information proves nothing. The RIU Palace is 484 (not 1000) much smaller rooms than Belaire and yes it was completed in 1 year from the time they broke ground. It is 9 stories the same as Belaire and Belaire will complete in nearly one year from the time it broke ground (Feb 2008) as well.

Just a few comments with all due respect......construction continues in Mexico all through rainy season....anywhere from June-Oct. give or take....day or night as well.

I beg to differ on the comment that all resorts disallow multiple tours. That is absolutely false. Many resorts have a 6 month or one year rule for return tours for free gifts and such, but they do allow multiple tours, after the 6 month or one year rule has lapsed! I have yet to find a resort in Mexico that does not allow multiple tours.....I was not even aware that Belair did not allow multiple tours.

Being behind schedule in Mexico is not uncommon..but usually within a short time frame ..say give or take a week, month, or maybe a few months. This long drawn out delay does certainly seem overboard. ( I am confused on the statement that Belair has not been around 2 years, yet many posters have stated they bought in 2007, well we are very close to 2009, so that would be 2 years. yes?

To clarify my humble position I did not join TUG to post just negatives about different areas or resorts but to gain more knowledge positive and negative about all aspects of timeshareing. I too. was a guest once, and as has been stated all guests are welcome. I felt this was and is a great informative site with an immense amount of knowledge and wonderful, informative posters. I believe this site has helped many and will continue to do so. I know I have been helped more times than I can count, so for me a membership was a necessity and I feel honored to be a member, and was more than welcome as a guest as well.

I am pleased that the thread in regards to Belair has been reopened and hope all will continue to abide by the rules so this thread can continue to help others.......obviously any positive results should be posted here as well...

As an afterthought, while on vacation I did post regarding the reopening of Profeco but in a different relocation in Puerto Vallarta for anyone in need of it. I can not recall exactly but think I posted it as a seperate post.

Once again I wish to all involved good luck and to all not involved, ( but wanting to be in Belair) just do your due diligence, proceed with caution and then make your decision.

 

[aliikai2]

Hi Anthony

It is nice that you finally came here to play instead of sending your employees. I love your screen name,of course you are The Big Dog...

All of my posts are biased towards Belaire because I have proven all of the other information here biased against Belaire to be false.

You haven't proven anything as false, you have as the rest of us have expressed your opinions, that isn't proof.

I am a member and I purchased in early 2007. I checked with the resort and they opened late in December 2006 so as I said they have not been around for 2 years yet.

This is almost November 2008, when we toured last year on November 10, 2007 we were promised completion by early 2008, in fact we were told that the units would be ready to use by March or April 2008.

I was never promised there would be a helicopter pad.

We were promised a yacht and in house chefs, how are those things coming ??

And if you only worked there for one week and haven't worked there for over a year and a half they I have a hard time believing any of what you say to be true.

I also have a very hard time believing your postings as truth. We and others will be in PV in the next few months, we may stop by to see how well your doing.

Greg

 

[Blondie]

*on topic posts only

 

[Great Dane]

[Message deleted. If you wish to keep posting, please feel free to post your opinions or your view of the facts. But do not accuse others of lying again or you will likely be permanently banned from posting. Dave M, BBS Moderator]

 

[Great Dane]

*keep things on topic or they will be deleted

 

[Great Dane]

*keep things on topic or they will be deleted

 

[Great Dane]

Belaire Golf Resort and Spa facts

You haven't proven anything as false, you have as the rest of us have expressed your opinions, that isn't proof.
Greg

The people posting on this BBS claim to be here to help with valid information to allow informed decision making. I have shown that the majority of information posted on this thread is simply unsubstantiated opinions, false accusations and complete lies about Belaire Golf Resort and Spa which are not supported by facts. Let me summarize what the true facts are about what has been said. These facts can all be verified by anyone who does a little homework and most of these have been verified by individuals other than myself in postings in this thread. In spite of the evidence, they continue to make more false statements and make more negative comments for which they can offer no proof of their claims.

Tuggers said in Post #50 and 91 - “[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']their (Belaire’s) contract is not registered with the PROFECO office[/FONT].” Calls to PROFECO have proven that the company that owns Belaire Golf Resort and Spa is a member of PROFECO and their contract has been registered and filed with PROFECO. In addition, customers have gone to PROFECO and confirmed that is the case, see post #109. Belaire adheres to the governing rules as has been shown by a few that have decided to rescind their purchase and properly received their money back. Belaire Golf Resort and Spa is also a member of the American Resort Developers Association (ARDA) as can be seen at www.arda.org/apps/mbrshp/directory/index.cfm?dir=corporate&id=1354160.

Tuggers said in Post #50 “[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']the so called owners never had plans to build any hotel there, this is called a hit and run operation.[/FONT]” Through email correspondence in one of the earlier posts it was shown that Belaire Golf Resort and Spa contracted with one of the largest Spanish engineering and architecture firms, IDOM, to design the building. Idom’s own website (www.idom.com) showcased the Belaire project for a period of time and one of their 2008 newsletters has a significant story about the uniqueness of Belaire Golf Resort and Spa. Construction has been underway for over 6 months and can be watched on the live webcam Belaire Golf Resort and Spa has set up on their website (http://www.belairevacationclub.com/belaire/press.html).

Tuggers said in Post 202 and 204 – “Fake web cam, Belaire has sunk to new lows.” Several people that have gone to Puerto Vallarta recently have confirmed that the webcam is indeed showing exactly what is taking place on the site. As an example, see post #310.

Tuggers said in Post 287– “abeit two years late.” Again, not true and the facts support otherwise. You can look at press release of when they first started (www.pvmirror.com/localnews/188-enero-2007.html). It was December 11, 2006 when they first announced plans to begin. This was actually when they began to put up the temporary facilities for the sales room and models. The earliest they ever indicated the resort would be operational was in mid 2008. Even in post 169 it is stated that members were told completion in September 2008. Yes, they are behind this schedule but will only be about 8 months from their plan not two years. That does not make them a bad resort or bad people. All of us bought pre-construction as it states on the contract which comes with all the things that go along with it. Potential benefits for getting in early in exchange for the possibilities of delays.

Tuggers said in Post #318 “access to the Registry collection as a Belaire owner is no longer a possibility.” Belaire has stated it has full intentions to be an affiliate member of The Registry Collection. A call to the Registry Collection confirms this, see post #182.

Tuggers said in Post #43“a Belaire email address that does not work-shocking.” Belaire Golf Resort and Spa has had the same phone number, website and email addresses from the beginning. I have had every email I ever sent responded to. I am not saying their customer support is perfect but then I haven’t found any organization that is. They have sent newsletters to their members on a regular basis. In fact, one was even posted here in post x292 supporting that very point. In addition, those people that indicated they had cancelled successfully via email also disprove your statements.

Let’s look at one additional fact. Who are those making the postings on this thread? To date there are 335 postings. The breakdown is as follows:
Pammex (43 posts) – Claims to live in PV, has mostly negative things to say about resort but it isn’t clear why.
Sappy Sam (41 posts) – Not a Belaire member, cancelled his contract and has made it a point to put down the resort ever since.
KarenG/DaveM/TUG Brian (37 posts) – These are the TUG moderators who have never been to Belaire and know nothing about the resort but have a bias towards the negative viewpoints.
Brucecz (33 posts) – Not a member, didn’t like something in the contract and made it personal crusade to blast anyone who had anything positive to say about Belaire.
Blondie/Fidji (28 posts) – Appear to work for competitors and have no facts but all bad things to say.
Jane Doe/PuertoVallarta Girl (10 posts) – Disgruntled ex-employees who were both there for less than one month.
Others (28 posts) – These are generally 1 or 2 posts each of people who have decided to cancel because of the untruths and accusations those of you have made and so gleefully supported their decision.
mterra/zara/judy23/Mule/Great Dane (70 posts) – Just a few of the names that are actual Belaire members. These may include both positive and negative statements, or in some instances just questions they would like answered.
Miscellaneous (45 posts) Neutral comments or unrelated content.
So, of the 335 postings, 192 represent the opinions of a mere 10 people who have negative things to say but generally have no firsthand about Belaire Golf Resort and Spa or two who cancelled for their own personal reasons and want to make that the same reason everyone else should do as well. If you remove those posts that that are neutral or unrelated and those of the 28 that cancelled because of what they read here then 72% of the posts are from these ten individuals. Again, to verify all you have to do is use the ”Who’s posted?” feature and you will see the proof. So, if you think you are getting an unbiased set of information here please think again.

 

[pammex]

Great Dane......life is not fair....and I do not think any of us can demand the owner of the site to do anything.....

I have no clue who you are....but I must say when I toured Belair I was told many untruths which I posted many, many threads ago, so I do not think posters are lying but just sharing their personal experiences with Belair and what they were told.

A proven fact is Belair is not open, not usable, and way behind schedule. I do not see any way around that fact.

 

[pammex]

Apparently I have had 43 posts....just my experiences with this resort, be they negative or not. I thought my posts were pretty clear on my views and impression.

I believe most people buying timeshares or fractional or full time ownership units in Mexico are adults and savvy buyers research before purchases.

I am not dissuading anyone from Belair, just sharing my experiences and observations and things I was told while at presentation.

I have repeatedly stated the show room units were beautiful, but beyond that what positives can I share............

I guess in 8 months more time when project is completed, we will all know if we made right decisions in our own decisions to purchase, resind or not purchase.

 

[Great Dane]

Great Dane......life is not fair....and I do not think any of us can demand the owner of the site to do anything.....

I have no clue who you are....but I must say when I toured Belair I was told many untruths which I posted many, many threads ago, so I do not think posters are lying but just sharing their personal experiences with Belair and what they were told.

A proven fact is Belair is not open, not usable, and way behind schedule. I do not see any way around that fact.

I have never said that each shouldn't make their own decision and I also indicated in an earlier post that it may not be for everyone. I am just providing my inputs here like everyone else.

But there is also a difference in what is an opinion, an untrue accusation and a fact. Facts can be verified. Opinions are just that. Untrue accusations are lies.

 

[esk444]

If post 335 is not a personal attack towards me then what is????????????????

Again, you are biased in your adherance to the posting rules.

I demand that you be fair!!!!!

Before you demand anything from the moderators, you might want to thank them for the thousands of hours they've spent volunteering to help this site.

 

[Great Dane]

Pursuant to my earlier remarks. For those like Dave M. and Aliikai2 who apparently don't know.

In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. Slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism.
Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience.

Statements are being made on this public bulletin board which effect how the information I am posting is viewed and who I really am. Equally those statements that are made against Belaire as a business are considered in the same light.

 

[esk444]

Pursuant to my earlier remarks. For those like Dave M. and Aliikai2 who apparently don't know.

In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. Slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism.
Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience.

Statements are being made on this public bulletin board which effect how the information I am posting is viewed and who I really am. Equally those statements that are made against Belaire as a business are considered in the same light.

Good luck with that lawsuit. Let us know how your anonymous "Great Dane from California" persona's reputation has been harmed.

 

[brucecz]

Pursuant to my earlier remarks. For those like Dave M. and Aliikai2 who apparently don't know.

Statements are being made on this public bulletin board which effect how the information I am posting is viewed and who I really am. Equally those statements that are made against Belaire as a business are considered in the same light.

If as in your post you seeming state do not want to be viewed who you are not, the best way to cure that is is so very simple.

To cure your perception problem you posted about, you could post under your real name like some of us do.


Bruce

 

[aliikai2]

Hi Big Dog

Please feel free to point out to me what I posted that rises to the level of defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) ??

You certainly appear to be more involved with the Belaire than a regular purchaser?? Are you sure you don't have more invested than your $150K purchase of of your Executive Suite?

Or was it the additional purchase ?

I have visited Belaire Golf Resort and Spa on three occassions this year, the last time being about 3 weeks ago (mid August) and have been treated wonderfully each visit. I have seen many of the same faces with a few new ones, I have seen continuous work occuring on the construction site during each week I was there and have met many other happy owners (both existing and new).

I have since purchased an additional unit since I realize what Belaire has to offer. My plan is to retain one unit and to rent the other and eventually probably sell it.

We see quite a few owners post here regarding their resorts, and a certain amount of pride of ownership does filter through in their posts.

Your posts on the other hand appear to be much more intense, like you are taking our opinions about this resort very personally.

We aren't attacking you, we are merely expressing our opinions and I am sorry if you somehow feel offended.

I can see how if you have 300K invested that you would wish for the resort to be completed, but to come here and try to discredit those posters that have told their stories and shared their opinions, well that just isn't in the spirit of the BBS.

jmho,

Greg

Pursuant to my earlier remarks. For those like Dave M. and Aliikai2 who apparently don't know.

In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. Slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism.
Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience.

Statements are being made on this public bulletin board which effect how the information I am posting is viewed and who I really am. Equally those statements that are made against Belaire as a business are considered in the same light.

 

[SteveHCMM]

I used to think of TUG BBS as a great resource to get information about the resorts from both members and non-members. This thread it seems that (some of the) members imply that I am insignificant becase I am "only" a guest. Gee, thanks, that really makes me want to join.

I don't understand why someone would even post something like "As Ann Landers used to say, "If you throw a stone into a pack of dogs the one who is hit will bark." I can hear yelping all the way up here in New England!" as their whole post. To me that is a waste of time and not beneficial to anyone... Can't we stick to relevant points instead of kindergarten name calling?

Ok, enough of that. Back to the real reason for my post, something relative to the topic...

Belaire now has a blog, hopefully, if everything is on the up and up we will see useful, factual information posted there on a regular basis.
http://belairevacation.blogspot.com/

Happy Friday!
Steve

 

[Great Dane]

*complaining about moderation is also against posting guidelines.

 

[Great Dane]

Your posts on the other hand appear to be much more intense, like you are taking our opinions about this resort very personally.

I can see how if you have 300K invested that you would wish for the resort to be completed, but to come here and try to discredit those posters that have told their stories and shared their opinions, well that just isn't in the spirit of the BBS.
Greg

Yes I do consider it personal as I happen to have pride and interest in supporting my investment here. I have never had a problem with anyone here expressing opinions. I have not discredited anyone's opinions. I have said more than once that if it is not right for someone to own that is their own decision. I do have problems when people make claims that are not based in fact which can be proven to the contrary and make false accusations. Statements that fit the definition I posted, and there are many in this thread, cannot be condoned. In every one of my posts I have tried to point to facts that can be verified.