How do you guys feel about Starwood's MF Increases?

[Troopers]

My Marriott is about $500 less each year for the equivalent resort (WMH and Shadow Ridge in Palm Springs). My DVC points, equivalent to a 1 week vacation during platinum season is also about $600 less than Starwood.

I would be curious to see how WKORV compares to a comparable Maui Marriott week....

In any case, my Starwood MFs are by far the highest!

Katherine

I would expect Starwood MF to be the highest among the major companies...it's the most luxurious IMHO. Although $500 more for the equivalent Marriott seems high. I'm not so sure your DVC is a fair comparison to Starwood.

 

[steve1000]

I own with Starwood at WMH. I also own with Marriott, Hyatt, Four Seasons, Royal Resorts, and Grand Pacific Resorts. They are all luxury properties and all have high MFs - which I knew when I purchased them - and this was acceptable to me because I wanted (and continue to want) a luxury vacation experience. All of my timeshares have delivered the luxury experience I was seeking so I have no complaints on that end.

The Starwood MFs are not the highest - they're second behind Four Seasons. My concern is not about the level of the Starwood MFs. It is that for each of the last 4 years the rate of increase in the Starwood MFs has been considerably higher than every one of the other properties. It is the consistency of the double-digit rate increases that concerns me. If Four Seasons, Hyatt, Marriott and the others can manage their luxury timeshare properties (and Four Seasons is considerably more luxurious than Starwood - while Hyatt is just as luxurious) without consistently increasing MFs by double digits each year - then why can't Starwood? Something is not right IMHO. This is why I would not buy another Starwood timeshare - even though I admittedly enjoy my annual SVO vacations. I simply don't believe that SVO management is as focused on cost containment as each of the other hotel based timeshare companies seem to be.

 

[Troopers]

I own with Starwood at WMH. I also own with Marriott, Hyatt, Four Seasons, Royal Resorts, and Grand Pacific Resorts. They are all luxury properties and all have high MFs - which I knew when I purchased them - and this was acceptable to me because I wanted (and continue to want) a luxury vacation experience. All of my timeshares have delivered the luxury experience I was seeking so I have no complaints on that end.

The Starwood MFs are not the highest - they're second behind Four Seasons. My concern is not about the level of the Starwood MFs. It is that for each of the last 4 years the rate of increase in the Starwood MFs has been considerably higher than every one of the other properties. It is the consistency of the double-digit rate increases that concerns me. If Four Seasons, Hyatt, Marriott and the others can manage their luxury timeshare properties (and Four Seasons is considerably more luxurious than Starwood - while Hyatt is just as luxurious) without consistently increasing MFs by double digits each year - then why can't Starwood? Something is not right IMHO. This is why I would not buy another Starwood timeshare - even though I admittedly enjoy my annual SVO vacations. I simply don't believe that SVO management is as focused on cost containment as each of the other hotel based timeshare companies seem to be.

Thanks.

I do not consider 4 Seasons in my statement since I do not think it as one of the major TS systems. Yes, it is more lux than Starwood.

I'm trying to understand the MF increases and see how it compares to the other major TS system. And thus, conclude if the increases are reasonable or not. I think it's difficult to gauge the increases by looking into the numbers without full understanding of all expenses including property taxes, insurance, labor costs, etc. In my earlier post, the MF increase and amounts of Marriott's Maui TS and Starwood's Maui TS are within +/-5%. If these two properties are comparable and the numbers are accurate (I'm trying to verify), what does this tell you?

Can you provide more info about what and where you own within your TS portfolio? There may be a logical explanation why Starwood's MF increases are considerably higher than your other TS. Of course, it could be that Starwood management is fiscally irresponsible. But I don't know and that's what I trying to figure out.

 

[Henry M.]

In my earlier post, the MF increase and amounts of Marriott's Maui TS and Starwood's Maui TS are within +/-5%. If these two properties are comparable and the numbers are accurate (I'm trying to verify), what does this tell you?

I would say the new tower of Marriott's Maui Ocean Club is comparable to Starwood's WKORV in terms of how nice the resorts are. They are close to each other and with similar amenities. It would be interesting to see a side-by-side history of the yearly maintenance fees for the same type of unit at both resorts, although I don't know if there is that much history for the Marriott towers. The first one opened after WKORV.

 

[LisaRex]

To be fair, owners in Kauai have been complaining about skyrocketing MFs, too. I know that some municipalities are taxing TSs at a disproportionate rate and that has caused a lot of anger. For some reason, TSs have earned a bad reputation, which puzzles me. After all, when tourists stayed away from Hawaii in droves this year, the TSs occupancies have remained high, undoubtedly because we have paid for our lodging, so why not go?

Studies have shown that TS owners spending at local restaurants, etc. is nearly on par to what hotel guests spend. We give people jobs, albeit not high paying ones (but neither do hotels). So I'm not sure why there's a lack of love for TSing.

 

[DavidnRobin]

To be fair, owners in Kauai have been complaining about skyrocketing MFs, too. I know that some municipalities are taxing TSs at a disproportionate rate and that has caused a lot of anger. For some reason, TSs have earned a bad reputation, which puzzles me. After all, when tourists stayed away from Hawaii in droves this year, the TSs occupancies have remained high, undoubtedly because we have paid for our lodging, so why not go?

Studies have shown that TS owners spending at local restaurants, etc. is nearly on par to what hotel guests spend. We give people jobs, albeit not high paying ones (but neither do hotels). So I'm not sure why there's a lack of love for TSing.

Because they can tax without representation - the HI government is notoriously short-sighted. The USVI Gov't is doing the same with a two-fold increase in property tax on TS, and a HUGH increase in energy costs.

 

[Troopers]

I would say the new tower of Marriott's Maui Ocean Club is comparable to Starwood's WKORV in terms of how nice the resorts are. They are close to each other and with similar amenities. It would be interesting to see a side-by-side history of the yearly maintenance fees for the same type of unit at both resorts, although I don't know if there is that much history for the Marriott towers. The first one opened after WKORV.

I have copied the following 2009 MF from the Marriott forum:

Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina Towers 2-Bedroom
Operating Fee - 1,532.40

Replacement Reserve - 151.07

Tax Fee - 134.45

Total - 1817.92

The 2009 MF for WKORV is $1,785.07 excluding $113.53 SVN and $5 ARDA ROC PAC contribution.

You can find the Marriott 2009 MF thread here.

Also interesting is a statement by Dave M, moderator of the Marriott forum:

"For those 21 Marriott resorts for which we have MF data back to 2001, the average annual increase in fees has been 5.2%, from $701 in 2001 to $1,002 in 2008. The median increase was at an annual rate of 5.0%. I exclude special assessments, which are temporary and would otherwise distort the increase data."

Any comments?

 

[calgarygary]

Thanks.

I do not consider 4 Seasons in my statement since I do not think it as one of the major TS systems. Yes, it is more lux than Starwood.

I'm trying to understand the MF increases and see how it compares to the other major TS system. And thus, conclude if the increases are reasonable or not. I think it's difficult to gauge the increases by looking into the numbers without full understanding of all expenses including property taxes, insurance, labor costs, etc. In my earlier post, the MF increase and amounts of Marriott's Maui TS and Starwood's Maui TS are within +/-5%. If these two properties are comparable and the numbers are accurate (I'm trying to verify), what does this tell you?

Can you provide more info about what and where you own within your TS portfolio? There may be a logical explanation why Starwood's MF increases are considerably higher than your other TS. Of course, it could be that Starwood management is fiscally irresponsible. But I don't know and that's what I trying to figure out.

Look within Starwood's own family to determine fiscal responsibility. All logic would suggest that a fractional at the St. Regis would/should have a higher per week mf yet if the listing discussed in this thread is accurate, then mf there is only $1188/week. I would further suggest that the St. Regis's standards would put to shame those at either a Sheraton or Westin property within SVN. Would love to have a 24 hour butler service covered by my mf!

What's the difference? Possibly a smaller ownership group that is able to maintain control of their HOA without blindly signing off control to Starwood.

 

[Troopers]

Look within Starwood's own family to determine fiscal responsibility. All logic would suggest that a fractional at the St. Regis would/should have a higher per week mf yet if the listing discussed in this thread is accurate, then mf there is only $1188/week. I would further suggest that the St. Regis's standards would put to shame those at either a Sheraton or Westin property within SVN. Would love to have a 24 hour butler service covered by my mf!

What's the difference? Possibly a smaller ownership group that is able to maintain control of their HOA without blindly signing off control to Starwood.

Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to figure it out nor answer your question. Your reasoning does make sense but can you explain why Marriott's fractional ownership MF are significantly less than it's own TS next door (as stated by another TUGger in the same thread)? Would you characterize Marriott's fiscal responsibility similar to Starwood's based on these facts?

 

[jarta]

Troopers, ... My comment. It seems that the 2 are pretty comparable in poshness, location, age and MF. So if the MF facts are right, since Starwood is poorly managed, Marriott must be equally poorly managed.

But, it's not the cost of the MF alone. "It's the economy, stupid!" And, it's obviously causing pain for a lot of TUG posters. ... eom

 

[calgarygary]

Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to figure it out nor answer your question. Your reasoning does make sense but can you explain why Marriott's fractional ownership MF are significantly less than it's own TS next door (as stated by another TUGger in the same thread)? Would you characterize Marriott's fiscal responsibility similar to Starwood's based on these facts?

If the mf of a fractional ownership at Ritz Carlton is similar to that of the St. Regis and if Marriott is experiencing the same issues with mf costs and increases as Starwood, I would attribute that to the inability of the companies to control a smaller, possibly more easily organized group. The St. Regis and R.C. would require higher replacement costs, do have higher levels of service and do have more expensive amenities. These would naturally suggest a higher mf. Combine that with the fact that these are consistently smaller properties and can not possibly have the same productivity savings that can be experienced in a larger property and you are once again left wondering, how the mf in a larger, lower standard property is higher. I think one of the key differences, could be in the contract. I strongly doubt that owners in a fractional such as the St. Regis or Ritz are subsidizing the corporations by providing free units without compensation. If SVN owners could get their HOA's compensated at least for costs associated with Starwood's rentals of their properties, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Troopers]

Troopers, ... My comment. It seems that the 2 are pretty comparable in poshness, location, age and MF. So if the MF facts are right, since Starwood is poorly managed, Marriott must be equally poorly managed.

But, it's not the cost of the MF alone. "It's the economy, stupid!" And, it's obviously causing pain for a lot of TUG posters. ... eom

I fear that this may be the case.

 

[Troopers]

If the mf of a fractional ownership at Ritz Carlton is similar to that of the St. Regis and if Marriott is experiencing the same issues with mf costs and increases as Starwood, I would attribute that to the inability of the companies to control a smaller, possibly more easily organized group. The St. Regis and R.C. would require higher replacement costs, do have higher levels of service and do have more expensive amenities. These would naturally suggest a higher mf. Combine that with the fact that these are consistently smaller properties and can not possibly have the same productivity savings that can be experienced in a larger property and you are once again left wondering, how the mf in a larger, lower standard property is higher. I think one of the key differences, could be in the contract. I strongly doubt that owners in a fractional such as the St. Regis or Ritz are subsidizing the corporations by providing free units without compensation. If SVN owners could get their HOA's compensated at least for costs associated with Starwood's rentals of their properties, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sorry but you lost me...back up a sec.

The fact that St Regis fractional MF are less than Westin/Sheraton TS MF makes me sratch my head (for some of the reasons you stated). Combine this with Marriott's fractional MF are less than its TS MF provides no insight about Starwood's fiscal responsibility.

Your above statement does not support that Starwood is fiscally irresponsible. Your reasoning suggest that it's being mis-managed (although it may not be per some rule). The two are separate issues.

 

[calgarygary]

Sorry but you lost me...back up a sec.

The fact that St Regis fractional MF are less than Westin/Sheraton TS MF makes me sratch my head (for some of the reasons you stated). Combine this with Marriott's fractional MF are less than its TS MF provides no insight about Starwood's fiscal responsibility.

Your above statement does not support that Starwood is fiscally irresponsible. Your reasoning suggest that it's being mis-managed (although it may not be per some rule). The two are separate issues.

Troopers, as you brought in the Marriott comparison as far as fractionals are concerned, I was suggesting that maybe a fractional ownership HOA is more owner driven. The contract between the HOA and the management company in a fractional is likely written to create a "partnership" between the 2 groups rather than an autocracy. Only access to the management contracts would determine the accuracy of my theory. I do not necessarily believe that the Starwood properties are being fiscally irresponsible but that the management contracts are structured solely for the benefit of Starwood. As owners travel less due to these economic times, more units become available for Starwood rentals either through conversion to Starpoints or requesting Starwood to rent the unit. As Starwood has more and more units available to rent, the costs incurred in said rentals are 100% born by the HOA and us through our mf. The variable costs associated with rentals are higher than use by members yet there is 0 income provided to the HOA. This will invariably lead to higher than necessary mf increases and possibly more frequent capital expenditures. There is only one solution, true HOA control after all it is a home owners' association not a management company association.

 

[Troopers]

Troopers, ... My comment. It seems that the 2 are pretty comparable in poshness, location, age and MF. So if the MF facts are right, since Starwood is poorly managed, Marriott must be equally poorly managed.

But, it's not the cost of the MF alone. "It's the economy, stupid!" And, it's obviously causing pain for a lot of TUG posters. ... eom

Jarta, I'm backing down on...I'm not so sure about this.

The 10%+ increase in MF only applies to Starwood properties in Hawaii. Ignoring the Hawaii properties, all other properties avg around 5% MF increase. Guess what, this is also generally true for the Marriott properties. Assuming all Starwood properties are equally managed, the 10%+ MF increases must be attributed to something particular about Hawaii, perhaps taxes.

 

[jarta]

Troopers, ... If the current total MF are about the same, but Starwood has been increasing more rapidly over the past few years ........

maybe the total cost is appropriate and Starwood was too low before. Maybe it's belatedly catching up.

Hawaii is a very expensive place. Taxes are quite stiff for timeshares. Travel costs are outrageous and rising faster than Starwood MF.

St. John, Harborside and all the Hawaii resorts are on islands. Islands are great places that have more beaches but, because everything has to be shipped in, it costs more money to build, maintain, live and vacation there. Insurance has to cover floods, typhoons and hurricanes. Just a fact of life that should be taken into account when purchasing!

My total increase for my 5 Starwood weeks (1EY; 1OY; 3 EOY) owned is about $50 this year. If Harborside holds steady (it's predicted to go down) the increase will be $50 on over $5,500 paid in 2008. That's less than a 1% increase.

Maybe I'll feel different next year. This year I'm happy. But, I'd be unhappy, too, if I got a 10% increase. However, I'd take a look at the financials rather than blame it all on a captive Starwood association board whose loyalty is to Starwood and not fellow timeshare owners.

Enjoy your weeks. ... eom

 

[LisaRex]

Maybe I'll feel different next year. This year I'm happy. But, I'd be unhappy, too, if I got a 10% increase. However, I'd take a look at the financials rather than blame it all on a captive Starwood association board whose loyalty is to Starwood and not fellow timeshare owners.

If I felt our HOA truly represented our interests, I wouldn't need to delve deeper into their financials; I would trust that my HOA was doing just that. The fact that Starwood is clearly trying to keep "regular" Owners off the HOA boards by putting in roadblocks, such as pre-screening interviews, makes me suspicious. Couple that with 10% increases in MFs with no explanation or contact information, and it makes me doubly suspicious.

 

[spuppy]

If starwood truly had a reasonable explanation for the ridiculous increases in hawaii maintenance fees, it would be in their interest to bend over backwards and be fully transparency as to where the money is going. But the mailer that I received is far from transparent. I think the more likely explanation is that they are losing money in the hotel business due to lower nightly rates and are trying to make it up by raising rates on customers who are locked in and have no recourse.

 

[calgarygary]

Jarta, I'm backing down on...I'm not so sure about this.

The 10%+ increase in MF only applies to Starwood properties in Hawaii. Ignoring the Hawaii properties, all other properties avg around 5% MF increase. Guess what, this is also generally true for the Marriott properties. Assuming all Starwood properties are equally managed, the 10%+ MF increases must be attributed to something particular about Hawaii, perhaps taxes.

Just to clarify, if you back out the tax credit, the mf increase for Vistana Villages is closer to 9%. There really is no justification for a 9% increase in Orlando.

 

[Troopers]

Just to clarify, if you back out the tax credit, the mf increase for Vistana Villages is closer to 9%. There really is no justification for a 9% increase in Orlando.

FYI, Marriott's Cypress Harbour (2 bdrm) which is also in Orlando, the MF increase from 2008 to 2009 is 8.7%. The MF consisting of operating and reserve fee (excluding property taxes) increased from $724.40 to $787.60. Property taxes decreased from $113.23 to $94.04. Starwood's 2009 MF (excluding property taxes and SVN membership) for SVV (Bella) is $790.15 compared to Marriott's 2009 MF (excluding property taxes) for Cypress Harbour is $787.60. Can anyone compare the two properties?

Marriott's and Starwood's MF amount and increases are quite similar. Interesting, huh? I do not think it's a conspiracy. I'm convincing myself that Starwood's MF increases are "reasonable".

 

[Ken555]

Could the Orlando increase be justified by risinig insurance costs?

 

[calgarygary]

Could the Orlando increase be justified by risinig insurance costs?

That is a good question and goes to the heart of the matter. As long as we are provided very generalized operating statements without explantions, the owners have no clue as to what contributed to increases - just educated guesses.

 

[steve1000]

It's not just the SVO Hawaii properties where the MFs are increasing by double digits each year - I own at WMH in California and in each of the last 4 years the MFs have increased by double digits each year. In comparison, my Marriott MFs have averaged about 5.5% increases annually. As I noted in an earlier post, I own with several different timeshare companies and the increase in the SVO California MFs have consistently exceeded the increases in MFs in every one of the other systems. If, for example, I owned at Kierland and was only experiencing 5% annual increases in MFs I wouldn't mind a bit. I would consider it routine. I think Kierland owners should consider themselves fortunate - I suspect Kierland MFs will soon be increasing by double digits each year as well.

 

[jarta]

Harborside 2009 MF Fees Up about 10%

I just called in to pay my 2009 Lagunamar MF (leaving for there on Saturday). I asked about the 2009 MF at Harborside.

A decrease was estimated. I was told the 2009 bills are going out later this week. My 2008 MF payment for my 3-br at Harborside was $2,328.15. The 2009 bill will be $2,551.72 - about a 10% increase. This is a Phase II unit. The details are supposed to be in the bill. I don't know if there was a special assessment or all of the MF is for operating and reserve. The guy who collects fees only had the total amounts.

I prepaid the MF today. ... eom

 

[Negma]

So my Harborside MFs just came in and here are our MF results 2008 to 2009
Overall up 6.5%
Disn BWk 300pts- Up 5%
MH ey 2br-up 2.8%
WKN 2br ey- up 13.7%
Atlantis eoy 3br- up 12.7%
Kierland- eoy 1br 3.3
Vistana -2ey 2br 0%
(but there is the special assesment not included)

We rented a week last year and vactioned between the family 6 weeks- a lot of fun. Total about 8K.