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How do you guys feel about Starwood's MF Increases?

chuck3810

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maintenance fees

I bought a resale at Harborside in 2007 and am very concerned about the increase in MF and the lack of transparency regarding how the money is being used. Atlantis is a great resort and the costs to get access to the water park and aquariam are somewhat understandable but it looks like the 2009 fees may be over $2,400 for a 2br lockout. The units in also are starting to look tired but there is no indication they will be upgraded with these fees. I know very little about the relationship between the owners' association and starwood but am interested in learning more and considering any collective action to get more control over the fees. Thanks
 

j4sharks

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Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the responses. So two more law firms want to talk to me about the situation. The first conversation went well and I expect to hear back from that firm soon.

Give me a sense what you would want to see, as Owners, in terms of solutions. For ex, is our first priority to open up the HOA election process? Or is it to get more detailed financial statements so we could track our MF dollars with more precision? Is it a refund from "excessive" MF assessments in years past? Something else?

Thanks!
 

LisaRex

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Used to own: WKORV-N; SVV - Bella
Personally, I'd love to have the HOA process opened up. If we had someone on the owner's side on the board who had the authority to obtain detailed accounting, etc., that would be a step in the right direction
 

Scott & Laura

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MF Increases

hello;

I would like to see these issues addressed.

1) a complete and transperant accounting and verification of fees and costs
included in the MF's each year.
a. how are the fees comprised

2) Is starwood shifting expenses and burdens to existing owners appropriately
a. Are they paying MF fees on units they rent?
b. Have they held units off the market and shifting MF's to owners.
i. Is WKORV really sold out

3) How is Starwood justified in screening potential board members out and on what basis are they denied the ability to be on the ballot

4) Is starwood using the owner data base to garner votes for their hand picked candidates and using confidentiality to deny owners the same access for lobbying for votes

5) Starwood is making moves to sell off and become a management property. What happens when starwood sells off the Villas and only have a 20 year management arrangement. At the time of refurbishing do they skip with the money? Are the funds for MF's in trust or can Starwood use them for their own uses and if they run into financial difficulties are the funds lost - potential fraud?

6) How are the ownership contracts arranged in the event Starwood is out of the picture, are our ownerships subordinated under Starwoods umbrella, are we owners and Starwood managers, etc.?

7) why doe Starwood insist on representing and implying that they 'excercise' Right of first refusal and that maintenance fees only go up 2-3% a year when you are buying? Starwood is fully aware those statements are wholly untrue.

8) by what right does Starwood stack the board and assert that the owners demanded increases or that we did not want Villas upgrades as elite members, when in fact the "owners ' were not included in the decisions?

9) Why are board meetings not openly disclosed to the owners?

10) What rights do the owners truly have in Hawaii, St.john, Kauia, Arizona, Florida, and how do they differ in each case?


Scott
 

Fredm

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Starwood- Business or Bureaucracy
After reading the recent posts on the dramatic increases in MF and resort / SVO control of the boards of directors, I started wondering how Starwood is run. In this economy, I know of many businesses that are dramatically cutting costs while other entities (so as not to make this political) are planning huge spending increases such as bailouts, infrastruture, and continuing to hire new employees. I know many businesses that have implemented 10-30% paycuts for their entire staffs after laying off many others. If Starwood is truely a business and because labor and property taxes are a major portion of the MFs, shouldn't we have expected to see a MF decrease this year???

OK- so we did not get a MF decrease which is just amazing to me but how in the world do they justify a double digit increase. Maybe they are just a little slow in reacting to things. I am sure that they have already institued 20% paycuts, reduced their non-sales staff by 20% and have filed with each resort's county to have the property taxes lowered based on the new and reduced property values.

Westin5Star,

Starwood appears to be a well run business when using the metrics of the hospitality industry as the measuring tool.
They do not have excess employees hanging around with nothing to do. Executive and other professional positions are a small percentage of the total number of employees. Most are engaged in facilities maintenance, gardening, housekeeping, food service, and similar lower wage jobs.
They cannot cut the minimum wage that many are paid. It's the law. Minimum is minimum. In fact, overall, you may be surprised to know that Starwood and other branded hospitality companies are extremely efficient at operations management. It is what they do.

Further, these low wage employees are the personnel who provide the service levels we all enjoy. Cutting the ranks of the service staff will only lower the level of service.

No, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Now, I have not read the operations management contract that has been awarded to Starwood (by Starwood). So, I am only guessing here. And assumptions can be way off the mark.

It is important to keep in mind the nature of an OM contract. There are very good business reasons that Starwood, Marriott, Hilton, etc. do not own the properties they hang their shingle on. The real estate, hotels, resorts are owned by others. Just like the timeshares are owned by others once Starwood has sold them.

The OM contract is where the details are. The operations budget simply follows as its numbers are plugged based on contract details.
For example, if the real estate owner has agreed that the OM may select its suppliers and distributors, the owners may discover that the supplies could be bought for 30% less elsewhere. The OM is not being careless, casual, or sloppy in its acquisitions. They may own the supply business.

And so on. But give credit where credit is due. Starwood is not a government bureaucracy. They are very much a business.

Then again, I may be giving them credit too freely. If I could only see the OM contract the owners have awarded and agreed to....
 

jhm40cu

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HOA increases in double digits every year? My property taxes don't even increase that much! :mad: Not only is it appalling, it's a terrible business move that slights the company's supposedly best and most "brand loyal" customers.

At this rate, WPORV will be $4000+ per year within 5 years!

I would join a class action suit in a heartbeat.

Yes, I share the same concern. What's the point of owning a TS if MF increase at this rate?
 

3 stareliter

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elite benefits and mf's

As a 3 star elite member, i was stunned to find out the benefits that where giving to us (including automatic upgrade (if available when you called within 30 days of arrival ) have been revoked . The other stunning changes that made me crazy, where the changes in the "categories" of the hotels. That change alone cut the value of our starwood points almost in half.
Anyone else upset about this?
 
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Westin5Star

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Starwood appears to be a well run business when using the metrics of the hospitality industry as the measuring tool.
They do not have excess employees hanging around with nothing to do. Executive and other professional positions are a small percentage of the total number of employees. Most are engaged in facilities maintenance, gardening, housekeeping, food service, and similar lower wage jobs.
They cannot cut the minimum wage that many are paid. It's the law. Minimum is minimum. In fact, overall, you may be surprised to know that Starwood and other branded hospitality companies are extremely efficient at operations management. It is what they do.

I want to start by saying that I have stuck up for Starwood many times in the past and I generally do not make a point of saying negative things about them on this forum. As you know I travel to Starwood's TS's anywhere from 8-12 weeks per year. I spend a lot of time getting to know the employees and observing what is going on. I was also in the hospitality industry for 13 years so I have direct experience in managing lower wage employees while providing proper quality, service, and cleanliness. Based on these facts, here are my comments:

1. Metrics of hospitality industry / productivity- In addition to our TS travel's we spend 4-5 weeks per year traveling to other resorts (Hyatt, Marriott, Hilton, Private Label, etc.). There is an obvious lack of productivity at the Starwood TS's vs. resorts that we visit. At the TS's, I often see the employees standing around chit chatting and not focusing on servicing their guests (this is opposite of what you have stated above but I see it almost every month when I am at a Starwood TS). For this reason, I often find less employees per guest at resorts while the service at the resorts is almost always better. I also do want to say that I have had some great service and there are some wonderful SVO employees.
2. Wages- I have talked to many of the employees at the resorts and most of them are making well over minimum wage. I realize that the servers and bellmen work on tips and thus may receive a lesser wage. The maintenance, security, and housekeeping that I have spoken with are all paid well over minimum wage and more than the going or competitive wage for their position. I have not had conversations with management about what they are paid but with the lack of access to proper information, it is impossible to guage this. The bottom line is that I do not trust Starwood with this when I see them making such poor purchasing decisions (furniture that doesn't wear well), bad construction decisions (showers at WLR), and the excessive rise in MFs.

I will say that Starwood TSs generally (not always) have the worst service that I have experience at any (nicer) TS or resort. We stayed at the Royal Sands in June. I was impressed by the productivity and efficiency of the low wage labor at these resorts. The service levels and attentiveness of the staff was also amazing. The resort was much cleaner and better maintained than any Starwood TS that I have visited. The MFs are about half of what they are at WLR. I know that there might be a few justifyable reasons for some of this but the bottom line is that SVO is poorly managed.

SVO maybe a "business" but it will not be able to survive if they cannot compete with the competition. This is what I see:
1. Reservation system- SVOs is terrible compared to the competition!
2. Decision Making and Communication- SVO has a history of making decisions that are very bad for their customers and that often lack integrity. Then they are terrible at how they communicate these decisions.
3. MF Increases- SVO MFs are much higher than competitors.
4. Service- As I stated above, the service levels are generally worse than we experience elsewhere. I tip very well and treat employees great but I regularly receive and see others receiving less than proper service.
5. Construction Quality- WKORV was much better built than WPROV or WLR. The quality of these newer results is really bad!

We chose SVO for their locations (HRA, WKORV, WLR, and WPORV). I guess that I am almost hoping that SVO is acquired or merged with a company that can properly manage their properties (unless we proceed with selling them all first). The bottom line is that I do not see how SVO can justify their large MF increases given the service levels, competition, and current economy. I see this as a business being run as a bureaucracy and their lack of proper openness and disclosure is part of this. SVO will not stay in business like this for very long before significant changes (buyout, merger, bankruptcy, or bailout) will happen.
 

docsan

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Ridiculous !!!

i feel it is ridiculous that we as owners of the starwood-st.john property has to put up. I agree completely with everything said here in the posts...not to belabour, thay have misrepresented their sales by witholding crucial info regarding the ownership rights superseded by the starwood company.

the recent increase in the MF's is at the very least exhorbitant. I might as well pay 3000 dollars a year and have a 5 day vacation on any place on earth!! I have already spent 7500 dollars for MF's in 3 years alone...One foruth the price of the property !!!

I am completely dis-illusioned with the group and have put my unit up for sale on e-bay. i will not recommend this vacation ownetrship to anyone i Know. I am also member of RCI, i feel they have a better program and managament.

i am all for seeking legal recourse....
 

docsan

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inside man..

[Duplicate posts are not allowed on TUG - DeniseM Moderator]
 
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docsan

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inside man..

[sorry that should go for FRED M quote...i agree with Westin5star
 

Fredm

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[sorry that should go for FRED M quote...i agree with Westin5star

I guess my sarcasm is too subtle. So, I will reconstruct my intended meaning.

The second part of my post said:
"No, you are barking up the wrong tree......"

The right tree is the Operations Management Contract Starwood awarded itself.

Continuing with my quote:

"For example, if the real estate owner has agreed that the OM may select its suppliers and distributors, the owners may discover that the supplies could be bought for 30% less elsewhere. The OM is not being careless, casual, or sloppy in its acquisitions. They may own the supply business."


"And so on. But give credit where credit is due. Starwood is not a government They are very much a business."


In the above example, the operations manager is ordering supplies from a company of their choosing, paying 30% more than is necessary. They are doing so because they profit from it. The OM owns the supply company, and is gouging the owner. Further, the intention to do so was premeditated. Hence , the clause in the OM contract which assigned the selection of vendors to the OM.

My point simply being that "bureaucracy" is the wrong characterization.
The term conjures images of an organization that is bloated, and process oriented.
MF's that routinely increase at these rates, do so mostly by design. These are sharp business people with a keen eye on profits. Not plodding bureaucrats, whose inefficiency is reflected in a bloated budget.

The reasons for the double digit m/f increases are not to be found in the budget. They are in the management contract.
 

Westin5Star

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Thanks Fred for the clarification and I think that our differnces revolve around terminology and maybe even what we have experienced at the SVO TSs. I understand that SVO is not the government, however, the hierarchy and layers of managment, effectively nonelective officials, lack of accountability, poor decision making, and administrative policy making group just don't seem very business like to me. I see first hand at the resorts a bloated process oriented company. I believe that you are correct in that the managment contract is the problem. So the question is how do we get that management contract changed???

Maybe I am an idealist with set views of how a true business should be run.
I might have different opinions than others but I stand by what I see and have experienced in that SVO reminds me more of a bureaucracy than a business. I often times feel like I am at the DMV when I am at SVO resorts. There is no doubt that SVO has made some great profits thus far, however, based on their shortsighted (and in my opinoin bureaucratic) methods of managing the business, I see them headed for a bankruptcy, bailout, merger or acquisition.
 

Carolyn

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Sheraton Desert Oasis
Not only are the mf out of control but I always cringe when I see that extra charge EVERY year for my SECOND II account. I think it is ridiculous I have to maintain TWO just because I own at WSJ. Owners should only have to pay for one II account PERIOD. In addition I would NEVER trade by 1 BR there thru II. Even if I wanted to trade thru Starwood, our WSJ 1 BR is WAY undervalued in the Starwood system. Thanks for letting me vent :wall:



Carolyn
 

botham

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I am very grateful for any assistance from my US friends, to find out just how fair these contracts are. It is bad enough trying to work out English law, without having to worry about the American system.

We are unhappy wit our lot at Starwood, particularly the maintenance fees, bot annual and periodic, but just have to pay up and look happy.
 

hacker0124

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Our MF for WKV increased 3.3 percent from 2007 to 2008. Our MF for SVV increased 7.8 percent from 2007 to 2008.

We just paid the MF for WLR for 2008 for the first time. no reference yet.

This year I feel these increases are in line with what I would expect in this economy. My operating cost for my home and business have increased greater in some areas.

I fully understand the uproar at a lack of transparency, or representation.

We are happy with our purchases and the resorts.....now. We will see what the future holds!
 

ljsparks

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Plan of Action

I appreciate everyone's input on this topic. My wife and I just paid our Maui fee's and cannot believe how they are going through the roof. I am a CFO for a $2B operation and cannot understand the financial statements SVO sends. It does appear there is overlap in services/management fees etc. I think we need an attorney with knowledge in this industry to develop a plan of action. I think we need more representation, transparency, and to let Starwood know they need to make some changes. I love the property, think they do a reasonable job with service, and don't want to "walk away" or "throw away" our investment; however, we did question how much the fees would go up when purchasing and were told a few percentages per year. I think a class-action could work; we just need to determine the financial arraignments. Thanks
 

docsan

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lets do the MATH...

thanks fred for the clarification, I did not meant to go on a tirade against you...just venting my frustrations at the book-keepinf..a la wall street style... nobody gets it!!

Lets' do the simple math.. i am paying 1900 dollars for by 2bedroom villa/week as MF. that multiplied by 52 weeks is 99,000 dollars approx.
I can't imagine we are spending a 100K on every unit /year across the resort which has approx 146 villas ( total cost averaged to approx 14 mil/ year) for the maintenance of the condos, not to mention the rental and the hotel guest room income to the westin property !!


Maybe I am dumb, But i can't see how we need to spend so much every year to keep up the condos. This does not include the special assessment of approx 1500 dollars this year for future reserves.

Can someone educate me on this...am i way of base?
 

calgarygary

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thanks fred for the clarification, I did not meant to go on a tirade against you...just venting my frustrations at the book-keepinf..a la wall street style... nobody gets it!!

Lets' do the simple math.. i am paying 1900 dollars for by 2bedroom villa/week as MF. that multiplied by 52 weeks is 99,000 dollars approx.
I can't imagine we are spending a 100K on every unit /year across the resort which has approx 146 villas ( total cost averaged to approx 14 mil/ year) for the maintenance of the condos, not to mention the rental and the hotel guest room income to the westin property !!


Maybe I am dumb, But i can't see how we need to spend so much every year to keep up the condos. This does not include the special assessment of approx 1500 dollars this year for future reserves.

Can someone educate me on this...am i way of base?

You just need to understand Starwood's methods of operations to get a grasp on why it is necessary to collect $95K/unit at your resort (in timesharing, you typically use 50 weeks not 52). I'll use Bella's budget of operating expenses as an example.

MF revenue, interest revenue, & late fee revenue total apx. $11,500,000. There is club rental revenue so it appears that the HOA is being reimbursed by the sales dept. for apx. $317K. There is misc. revenue, possibly Starwood reimbursing the HOA for use of our units - or maybe it is money found in the couches for a total of $374 (I did not forget the K - it is $374)!

Let's look at some of the expenses:
Admin & General (management? as there are separate housekeeping,security, etc. lines) $1,603,092.
Management Fees (possibly double charging for above) $1,225,146
Owner Services apx. $683,000
Master Association Dues $1,351,410

To me, it appears that Starwood and its other pocket SVN are getting close to $5,000,000 out of less than $12,000,000. Hell of a deal for them - not so good for us! As stated earlier, the problem is with the contract that the HOA has with Starwood and until there is owner control of the HOA, the problem will likely escalate.
 

Ågent99

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Thought I'd chime in on this thread and pretty much agree with y'all.

While I don't like the MFs increasing like they have, the real goal we owners need is fair representation. I'm 100% for that.

It sounds like we almost want to create a union for the owners!!! hahaha :)
 

Fredm

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You just need to understand Starwood's methods of operations to get a grasp on why it is necessary to collect $95K/unit at your resort (in timesharing, you typically use 50 weeks not 52). I'll use Bella's budget of operating expenses as an example.

MF revenue, interest revenue, & late fee revenue total apx. $11,500,000. There is club rental revenue so it appears that the HOA is being reimbursed by the sales dept. for apx. $317K. There is misc. revenue, possibly Starwood reimbursing the HOA for use of our units - or maybe it is money found in the couches for a total of $374 (I did not forget the K - it is $374)!

Let's look at some of the expenses:
Admin & General (management? as there are separate housekeeping,security, etc. lines) $1,603,092.
Management Fees (possibly double charging for above) $1,225,146
Owner Services apx. $683,000
Master Association Dues $1,351,410

To me, it appears that Starwood and its other pocket SVN are getting close to $5,000,000 out of less than $12,000,000. Hell of a deal for them - not so good for us! As stated earlier, the problem is with the contract that the HOA has with Starwood and until there is owner control of the HOA, the problem will likely escalate.

Starwood is getting more than the $5 million.
HOA revenue and expense is internal to the HOA.
It does not reflect revenue to SVO from their rental of owner units.
I will leave it at that.

The rental revenue SVO generates for itself via captured owner inventory from all sources system-wide, is best discussed separately.
 

Fredm

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Thanks Fred for the clarification and I think that our differnces revolve around terminology and maybe even what we have experienced at the SVO TSs. I understand that SVO is not the government, however, the hierarchy and layers of managment, effectively nonelective officials, lack of accountability, poor decision making, and administrative policy making group just don't seem very business like to me. I see first hand at the resorts a bloated process oriented company. I believe that you are correct in that the managment contract is the problem. So the question is how do we get that management contract changed???

Maybe I am an idealist with set views of how a true business should be run.
I might have different opinions than others but I stand by what I see and have experienced in that SVO reminds me more of a bureaucracy than a business. I often times feel like I am at the DMV when I am at SVO resorts. There is no doubt that SVO has made some great profits thus far, however, based on their shortsighted (and in my opinoin bureaucratic) methods of managing the business, I see them headed for a bankruptcy, bailout, merger or acquisition.

Get the management contract changed? It would be a giant step if we can get to read it. Assuming that is even possible (probably not), owners have no voting clout under the current association agreements.

You have every right and justification to be critical of what falls short of your standards. You paid (and continue to pay) a lot of money with the expectation of a certain vacation experience.

To highlight how truly absurd the SVO / Owner relationship really is, consider that at this point you do not even know if your resort personnel issues (level of service aside) are costing SVO or the HOA. That would depend on whether the management contract is "cost plus" or "percentage off the top"
based. Not that it matters to how it affects your experience. It doesn't. The motivation to do something about it does.

I agree with you. Our differences are mostly of terminology. Perhaps our resort experiences have been different. No matter. I believe that I understand your frustration and disappointment very well. It is not caused by a single bad vacation or interaction. It is outright offensive to conclude that you are being abused by SVO, and they really don't care. The proverbial double whammy of adding insult to injury.

If anything, I view the very premise of the SVO system audacious. It is designed to capture and leverage owner inventory for the long term benefit of SVO. Little doubt that it occurs at the expense of, and restrictions on, the owner. The business construct which enables its successful execution is brilliant, IMO. So, I hold a grudging respect for it. But, it does dispel me of any notion that the company has owner satisfaction in its core business values.
 

calgarygary

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Starwood is getting more than the $5 million.
HOA revenue and expense is internal to the HOA.
It does not reflect revenue to SVO from their rental of owner units.
I will leave it at that.

The rental revenue SVO generates for itself via captured owner inventory from all sources system-wide, is best discussed separately.

Fred, I implied that Starwood was ripping off the owners by mentioning the misc. income of $374 was either reimbursing the HOA for use of the units or $ found in the couches. By the way, these numbers are for Bella only as there are separate HOA's for Key West, Amelia and St. Augustine at Vistana Villages. It is a heck of a deal for Starwood, they must be clearing 8 figures out of VV with the owners on the hook for expenses. It looks like we even bought mgt. new laptops as there is a fee of $73,163 for data processing - oh wait, that must be our share of the new, soon to be announced, state of the art reservation system.

But, it does dispel me of any notion that the company has owner satisfaction in its core business values.
Me too!
 

jarta

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Fred, ... "Get the management contract changed? It would be a giant step if we can get to read it. Assuming that is even possible (probably not), owners have no voting clout under the current association agreements."

Rather than bitching here about never being able to see the Bella management contract, how about requesting it, reading it and letting us know how it is deficient?

Subsection 12 of Section 718.111 (The association) of the Florida Condominium Act covers "Official Records." (a) of the subsection defines the official records as:

"9. A current copy of any management agreement, lease, or other contract to which the association is a party or under which the association or the unit owners have an obligation or responsibility."

Any written request to make public records available must be complied with
within 10 working days.

Moreover, the statute further states:

"(c) The official records of the association are open to inspection by any association member or the authorized representative of such member at all reasonable times. The right to inspect the records includes the right to make or obtain copies, at the reasonable expense, if any, of the association member. The association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the frequency, time, location, notice, and manner of record inspections and copying. The failure of an association to provide the records within 10 working days after receipt of a written request shall create a rebuttable presumption that the association willfully failed to comply with this paragraph. A unit owner who is denied access to official records is entitled to the actual damages or minimum damages for the association's willful failure to comply with this paragraph. The minimum damages shall be $50 per calendar day up to 10 days, the calculation to begin on the 11th working day after receipt of the written request. The failure to permit inspection of the association records as provided herein entitles any person prevailing in an enforcement action to recover reasonable attorney's fees from the person in control of the records who, directly or indirectly, knowingly denied access to the records for inspection. The association shall maintain an adequate number of copies of the declaration, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and rules, and all amendments to each of the foregoing, as well as the question and answer sheet provided for in s. 718.504 and year-end financial information required in this section on the condominium property to ensure their availability to unit owners and prospective purchasers, and may charge its actual costs for preparing and furnishing these documents to those requesting the same. Notwithstanding the provisions of this paragraph, the following records shall not be accessible to unit owners: ... (mainly privileged information)."

Here's where to find the Florida condo act:

http://www.ccfj.net/condo718statutes.html#718.111

Since I'm not too upset by the MF I pay, I'm not going to hassle Starwood or the associations about them. But, now you have a roadmap. Get going!
 
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