How do you guys feel about Starwood's MF Increases?

[LisaRex]

Count me in.

Lisa

 

[Scott & Laura]

Mf Fee Inceases

In reply to Jarta;

Thank You for the link, it is helpful. I am surprised to see that Starwood is required to provide the finacials for inspection. I received a reponse from Starwood that their legal counsel stated they did not have to provide that information, and all I could get was the 10K consolidated thats published.

WKORV is a more upscale timeshare and I am sure that numerous business owners, executives, CPA's and such who regularily utilize finacials are owners.

I personally wanted to start with the finacial information that Starwood is required to keep, and it looks like provide. It sheds a tremendous amount of light on the operations, maintenance etc. This is the starting point and is the most prudent place to begin.


I would not second guess peoples motives, I would think as an attorney, Jarta you would be more patient with people, some of your responses are giving a sense of attacking the intellect and motives of others.I am sure that is not what you are trying to do.

This topic and the subsequent posts are clearly conveying that most people are ignorant of the what and why's, and in some cases confused as to what is happening. No extant reply to this post, has yet articulated clearly and concisely, why the fees are increasing at a substantial rate and exactly what they are comprised of. It very well may be that a complete remodel may occur every 10 years and be completely paid for. At about $ 90,000.00 a year in taxes and MF's, certainly a better breakdown is in order.

The fee increases may be very well be appropriate and a sign of the times. Starwoods failure and it appears, according to Jarta's legal requirements, a resistance to providing clearer explanations.

I purchased several weeks with Starwood as I thought our kids would never be able to afford them, and it could be conveyed through the family.I am concerned at the MF increases as at the rate of increase my kids would possibly be forced to sell. Much like a city assesing farmers for improvements and forcing the farmers to sell to developers. My neighbors across the street are in that situation know.

Quality legal representation looking into things removes personal emotions and can effect a better clarification, which benefits all.

I have reservations because Starwood twice has callously handled mistakes they have made. Ourmost recent occured In December at St. John.

personally paid an increased fee for an explorer package to St.John. We really wanted to buy. We received "IN WRITING" that we had a large 2 bedroom in the new development, and a Sunday morning appointment to talk about the property. Starwood substituted a smaller unit, we had friends with. The TV's did not work because of the snow on the channels. The air conditioner did not work, and the towel bars and tub faucet were uninstalled. We went to our appointed time and Starwood said they would not attend and we had to reschedule. Starwood missed another appointment and told us we had to come in for a third, we went for our third wasted morning and said we would not purchase.We are now told that we did not meet the proper requirements and did not attend our scheduled meeting. The fact that Starwood did not honor the meeting in writing or the rescheduled time is irrelevant to them. One manager in Florida has been very apologetic but said Starwood is unwilling to resolve things and feels we should attended a fourth meeting.All this for about $4000. A Starwood manager told my wife a few days ago that because we did not schedule and attend a fourth meeting we did not properly qualify for the starpoints. One manager at Starwood has tried to help for over a month and he says his hands are tied but has credited the staroptions, and that Starwood is unwilling to do anything about the less expensive room. We had because of the bad experience just offered to swap one of our Hawaii weeks for St.John and asked if they would just credit us for two more days for the small room substitution and the three half days. Starwood is unwilling.

I am skeptical about the MF fees, but wish to look inot them for piece of mind.

Scott

 

[DeniseM]

As for why Troopers and I respond to posts here, the thread is about how you feel about MF increases. Funny, but nobody asks why you post on this thread. You are very concerned. We are not. All of us TUGgers have a right to post here about how we feel about MF increases.

You absolutely do have a right to post here. That was not my point. My point is, if you are not concerned about this issue, why keep reading and responding?

Another reason you may be less concerned, and I'm just speculating, is that maybe it's not a financial hardship for you? There are several posters here who have stated that these huge assessments are going to be a burden for them. A retired Starwood owner just wrote about that yesterday. They are considering defaulting on their MF and assessment because they are on a fixed income and just can't pay them.

I'm a CA teacher - There is a good chance that I'm going to get a layoff notice in March, after 30 years of teaching. You better believe I am concerned about escalating maintenance fees and special assessments! Considering the state of the economy, if Starwood really cared about their owners, they'd cancel these special assessments and wait for the economy to improve.

Everyone is welcome to post their opinions here, but let's remember the TUG rule of courtesy. - Thanks!

 

[jarta]

Scott & Laura, ... "In reply to Jarta; Thank You for the link, it is helpful."

You are welcome. I thought providing the links to the statutes was the most productive thing I could do since it seemed a lot of posters didn't know where to start and were misinformed about their right to information.

The information must be made available. A detailed explanation of the meaning of each piece of information is not required (nor is it practical for Starwood or the POA to provide an answer to every question posed). Ergo, the mailing of the budget.

Start with the most recent audited financial statement, the declaration and the management contract. Use common sense. And, GLTY. ... eom

 

[jarta]

Denise, ... I have stated several times said that it might be the economy or the fact that someone stretched to purchase the timeshare that is causing the complaints about MF.

But, is that what people (except me and now you) have been mentioning?

What is being challenged is the necessity of the expenditures themselves and the amount of money Starwood makes from managing the properties. Or, even, the motives of the board members.

I have no problem with revolts about MF. Everyone wants to see efficient use of MF. The more information people receive; the more I think they should be convinced that the money being expended at Starwood timeshare locations is actually necessary. So, go to it!

I'd like to think we all bought at Starwood because it is, if not as posh as Four Seasons, a really great, flexible, up-scale timeshare system. I didn't want to buy at lesser places whose owners only dream about being lucky enough to trade into a Starwood place though II. I'd like to see Starwood places stay like that. So, a revolt that merely results in a lower standard of amenities where I own is not what I want. Eventually, like has apparently happened at St. John, larger expenses will be necessary due to deferred maintenance and there will not be enough money in the reserve fund.

And, the economy is tough for everyone. ... eom

 

[DeniseM]

jarta - I have a hypothetical question for you. We both own at WKORV, so I will use it as my example.

Let's say that when WKORV is 10 years old, Starwood decides to completely redecorate and replace all the appliances. At this point the MF for the 2 bdm. is $2,600 a year, and for 3 years, you are going to pay an extra $1,200. So for three years your MF + special assessment will be $3,800.

Do you:

1) Pay it with no question.
2) Pay it with no question, but criticize Starwood on TUG.
3) Contact Starwood or the BOD, to try to get some answers.
4) Bring some kind of legal action against the BOD and/or Starwood, when you can't get any kind of satisfactory answers from them.
5) Take another action - what?

Obviously, there is no "right" answer, and I sure hope our high MF's will prevent the need for a special assessment. I'm just curious how you would feel about it, if it was your resort.

 

[calgarygary]

Scott & Laura, ... "In reply to Jarta; Thank You for the link, it is helpful."

You are welcome. I thought providing the links to the statutes was the most productive thing I could do since it seemed a lot of posters didn't know where to start and were misinformed about their right to information.

The information must be made available. A detailed explanation of the meaning of each piece of information is not required (nor is it practical for Starwood or the POA to provide an answer to every question posed). Ergo, the mailing of the budget.

Start with the most recent audited financial statement, the declaration and the management contract. Use common sense. And, GLTY. ... eom

Not sure who you have meant by a lot of posters but the Florida statutes were invaluable in getting Time No More to correct a problem that I had with a Vistana Village purchase 2 years ago. Statutes not withstanding, my experience in getting Starwood to deal with that same error, was "talk to our legal counsel" at my expense. Their modus operandi when dealing with major issues with their SVN customers is one of subterfuge and stalling while hiding behind their legal department. So although I have long recognized that the right to information exists, Starwood employs tactics to block that same right without the requester going to great expense. Give it a try Jarta, request a detailed income statement from your HOA or the homeowner's list and contact info. from Starwood. Let us know how you do.

 

[jarta]

Denise, ... "Do you:

1) Pay it with no question.
2) Pay it with no question, but criticize Starwood on TUG.
3) Contact Starwood or the BOD, to try to get some answers.
4) Bring some kind of legal action against the BOD and/or Starwood, when you can't get any kind of satisfactory answers from them.
5) Take another action - what?"

Here's my sequence:

If I had been at WKORV recently and it needed lots of work and deferred maintenance, I would probably 1.

If I had been at WKORV and this state did not appear to me, I would look at the budget sent to me. If it didn't look OK, I would do 3 (not call and ask for an explanation from some Starwood flunky who answers the phone but use the statutory procedure). I would ask to have made available the declaration (if I didn't keep my copy), the reserve study and the last audited statement.

If I was refused the information (remember, I'm not entitled to an explanation of what it means), I would write a letter threatening legal action - and follow it up if nothing more happened. So, 4 comes next.

I'm not sure that 5 would become necessary if a suit was filed. But, hand-wringing is not my style.

Of course, if I got the information and looked at it, the answer to my questions would probably be there. If they weren't I'd next ask for the preliminary budget detail and the year-end monthly financial statement. The statement would tell me how the year went - but without audited figures.

What I would never do first is pay the bill with no question and then come on TUG and bellyache about not getting any information without trying to get it. So, 2 is never an option.

And, I wouldn't say that the reason for the increased MF is Starwood's "captive" board members without looking at the information.

But, if I asked pursuant to the statute and wasn't give access to the information, I would disclose that on TUG as soon as Starwood told me that.

But, Denise, it's a hypothetical! This year my total MF for 5 weeks went up by about $50 (with Harborside still to come). So, I'm using 1. Anyone else can do whatever they want. But, I can comment that they are merely venting and speculating without the information to back up their conclusion that Starwood and the POA board are wasting money.

 

[DeniseM]

Thanks for your response - very interesting!

I thought you owned at WKORV and that's why I used it as an example - I see now that you do not, so that wasn't such a good example.

For many of the regulars here, timesharing, and discussing it, and yes, griping about it, is a hobby. We enjoy it all - good or bad. Telling us we gripe too much, will only make us gripe more! So I guess you will just have to decide if you want to hang out with us or not. I hope you will - you are a great source of information.

 

[jarta]

Denise, ... I owe much to the people at TUG. They have saved me thousands of dollars in my quest for having fun in the sun.

There is a lot of terrific information posted here. And the person with the most reliable knowledge and information is you. Everyone owes you a debt of gratitude for moderating this board -especially me. (And you and I know why.)

 

[DavidnRobin]

I will be starting another thread on TUG - that addresses the issue/challenge I personally would like to see tackled - and I will be very blunt here - and that is...

...get a Tugger on the HOA board of a SVO resort that is within SVN.

I believe to this end is where we can truly impact many of the SVO issues discussed (and complained about) here on TUG. This person would hopefully disseminate the inner workings of the SVO/SVN resort and be impactful by conveying this information for reasonable and open discussion.

In order to achieved this - I believe the only way to do this is by opening and maintaining communication amoung Owners - and it seems that the only way to do this is to force this issue upon SVO/SVN/WKORV by political/legal methods.

I propose that SVO resort be WKORV - if someone has a better resort to try this at - please chime in. At some point I thought WSJ may be accessible because of the lower number of resort VOIs and I had contact with about 50 owners, but because the way it is set-up - SVO indirectly controls a large set of units. Add the difficulty of dealing with anything in the USVI that is out.

WKORV is well represented here on TUG, but not percentage-wise compared to the overall VOIs - and this is why we will need to somehow overcome the communication obstacles.

Maybe - because of FLA laws - access to a SVV resort HOA could be done - I am not sure as I know little about SVV resorts.

I do not want to get into battling SVO over financial records (yet) - just HOA representation at one resort. I am not talking about something neferious {sp?} - completely opposite of this - I am looking at this to the benefit of the Owners which pay the MFs to keep the resort operating in a accountable and transparent manner.

anyway - I will start another thread. If Tuggers that participate or lurk here want to get involved - and if enough get involved - perhaps we can get something done - if not, well... nothing ventured - nothing gained... at least we will learn from it (good or bad).

 

[DeniseM]

David - I think that is a great idea and I nominate YOU to run for the WKORV BOD. I have lots of ideas, but I will wait until you post your thread - we will make it a sticky, too.

 

[DavidnRobin]

jarta - you keep saying that your MFs have only gone up only $50 - and there is no reason for complaint/concern for you - got it. As we own 2 WKV VOIs also - I am very happy how WKV has handled MFs to date. If SVO MFs were across the board like WKV - there would be alot less bitching. If WLM is Lagumanar (?) - then that is not representative of MF increases since it just open (lets see how it is a couple of years from now) - if WLM is something else - then please chime in. HRA MFs still to come in - I doubt it will be low like WKV. WKV is not representative of MF issues going on at other SVO VOIs - and especially WKORV. So...

 

[DavidnRobin]

David - I think that is a great idea and I nominate YOU to run for the WKORV BOD. I have lots of ideas, but I will wait until you post your thread - we will make it a sticky, too.

Funny. Unfortunately I would not be qualified in the eyes of the majority of Owners who may only get to read a couple of paragraphs that is alloted for vote - in this I am a realist. I do not think being a PK Scientist will hack it in regards to qualifications. I would like to see someone with prior HOA experience, knowledge of contracts and reading financial reports. Too bad jarta doesn't own WKORV (and had motivation to try and make an impact).

 

[DeniseM]

Funny. Unfortunately I would not be qualified in the eyes of the majority of Owners who may only get to read a couple of paragraphs that is alloted for vote - in this I am a realist. I do not think being a PK Scientist will hack it in regards to qualifications. I would like to see someone with prior HOA experience, knowledge of contracts and reading financial reports. Too bad jarta doesn't own WKORV (and had motivation to try and make an impact).

You may be right. I don't know what WKORV owner fits the bill. What I was thinking was that along with your application you could send in a good number of personal letters of nomination from WKORV Tuggers.

jarta would be perfect - we just have to get him to buy at WKORV!

 

[jarta]

Denise, ... Are you crazy? I just spent 6 years on HOA boards. My Sherman-esque statement is: I am retired forever from association boards.

IMO, at my advanced stage of life, being on an association board is too time-consuming and too much responsibility.

Plus, why have a person who earlier today was accused of being a Starwood employee be elected? For the specific purpose of being a thorn in Starwood's side?

But, my advice is this. Select a resort. Find out when the next board election will be and how many seats are open. Choose one seat where the incumbent is a Starwood officer or employee. Look at the State statute and the procedures in the declaration for elections so that you know what to do and when.

Then, get an issue that's not too negative and have your facts in a row on that issue. You can't get enough people to vote for you by merely being anti-Starwood. You must be pro-something. And, you must demonstrate you are knowledgable and reasonable.

BTW, earlier I said this thread was basically about a sense of loss of control. And, it is now all about gaining control over what goes on. That's neither good nor bad. It just is what it is. ... eom

 

[DeniseM]

Denise, ... Are you crazy?

Just a little Just pretend you don't notice...

But, my advice is this. Select a resort. Find out when the next board election will be and how many seats are open. Choose one seat where the incumbent is a Starwood officer or employee. Look at the State statute and the procedures in the declaration for elections so that you know what to do and when.

At WKORV the current board accepts applications and then interviews and selects the candidates. How can we find out if there is an alternate way of nominating someone?

 

[botham]

I have just read through most of the posts, some of which seem to do with personal issues, rather than the original topic.

I would say the most worrying issue here is that Starwood appear to be able to charge what they like and owners have no rights of appeal. When I first bought at Vistana, I was worried about ongoing costs, bearing in mind that we are also affected by the £ / $ exchange rate, but was assured by Vistana, that the maintenance fees would only rise with inflation and that is all we would have to pay.

In 5 years time there could be another extra payment and we seem to be able to do nothing about it.

 

[jarta]

Denise, ... "How can we find out if there is an alternate way of nominating someone?"

It's not easy. In the end, you must win a proxy fight. Expect frustrations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_fight

Here's some reading on the issue of homeowner proxy fights:

http://books.google.com/books?id=B8...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

http://www.chore.us/050815%20AZ%20-%20Homeowners'%20rights%20groups%20fight%20back%20against%20HOAs.htm

http://www.communityassociations.net/cacondoguru/archives/2006/11/recall_of_the_b.html

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-condos,0,5900797.storygallery (Florida specific)

http://www.hawaiicondolaw.com/blog/ (Hawaii specific) ... eom

 

[jhm40cu]

At this rate of MF increase, sooner or later annual MF will exceed my original purchase price from the DEVELOPER!

 

[DavidnRobin]

Denise, ... Are you crazy? I just spent 6 years on HOA boards. My Sherman-esque statement is: I am retired forever from association boards.

IMO, at my advanced stage of life, being on an association board is too time-consuming and too much responsibility.

Plus, why have a person who earlier today was accused of being a Starwood employee be elected? For the specific purpose of being a thorn in Starwood's side?

But, my advice is this. Select a resort. Find out when the next board election will be and how many seats are open. Choose one seat where the incumbent is a Starwood officer or employee. Look at the State statute and the procedures in the declaration for elections so that you know what to do and when.

Then, get an issue that's not too negative and have your facts in a row on that issue. You can't get enough people to vote for you by merely being anti-Starwood. You must be pro-something. And, you must demonstrate you are knowledgable and reasonable.

BTW, earlier I said this thread was basically about a sense of loss of control. And, it is now all about gaining control over what goes on. That's neither good nor bad. It just is what it is. ... eom

Thanks for the advice, but you may be misreading my remarks (but perhaps not others). I am a very blunt and straightforward person.

I am not looking for someone who is a thorn in SVO's side - or anti-SVO. I am looking for someone who is qualified to open up the transparancy of the HOA board by creating improved communication between Owners. Nothing neferious or below the belt - very simple - get a Tugger (w/ qualification) on a HOA board of a SVO SVN resort - so that person can in turn can use a large group of INFORMED and CONCERNED Owners (e.g. here on TUG) as a sounding board. If this is perceived as being anti-SVO - I do not see it as so. I see it as productive - and truly believe that it would be beneficial to all (except for those who have something to hide... if they exist).

How many ways can I say this?

PS - what is WLM?

 

[Ken555]

Perhaps there may be an easier way of accomplishing the goals being discussed. I know most, if not all, of the current BoD's at the HOAs are Starwood employees. Let's find the one or two that aren't and lobby them directly. Perhaps they may be more open to the notion of transparency and more owner involvement, etc.

 

[Troopers]

Does anyone know how Starwood's MF compares to comparable Marriott (or other TS programs) properties?

I believe the MF for Marriott's Maui Ocean Club in 2008 was ~$1750 and is ~$2000 in 2009. If Marriott's Maui Ocean Club and WKORV are comparable, the MF for WKORV are not entirely out of line (I guess both could be out of whack though). The MFs of the two resort are +/-5%. I don't own Marriott and have never stayed at Marriott's Maui TS so I may be comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Captron]

To the goal of getting someone on A board... when I bought at PGA I was sent an invitation to apply from the manager. I did not and have since upgrades that unit (and got a retro) elsewhere, but, that may be a good place to start. If they were actively looking and it is such a small resort......

It may not be representative of the other resorts but it may be a start into a look at the inner workings and from there we could spread (like a virus) It may also be more likely to have success on the mainland for travel and (foreign) legislative reasons. (ie. easier with US law)

Anybody there and interested? We may have hope of a grass roots uprising!

 

[SDKath]

Does anyone know how Starwood's MF compares to comparable Marriott (or other TS programs) properties?

I believe the MF for Marriott's Maui Ocean Club in 2008 was ~$1750 and is ~$2000 in 2009. If Marriott's Maui Ocean Club and WKORV are comparable, the MF for WKORV are not entirely out of line (I guess both could be out of whack though). The MFs of the two resort are +/-5%. I don't own Marriott and have never stayed at Marriott's Maui TS so I may be comparing apples to oranges.

My Marriott is about $500 less each year for the equivalent resort (WMH and Shadow Ridge in Palm Springs). My DVC points, equivalent to a 1 week vacation during platinum season is also about $600 less than Starwood.

I would be curious to see how WKORV compares to a comparable Maui Marriott week....

In any case, my Starwood MFs are by far the highest!

Katherine