How do you guys feel about Starwood's MF Increases?

[Fredm]

Fred, ... "Get the management contract changed? It would be a giant step if we can get to read it. Assuming that is even possible (probably not), owners have no voting clout under the current association agreements."

Rather than bitching here about never being able to see the Bella management contract, how about requesting it, reading it and letting us know how it is deficient?

Subsection 12 of Section 718.111 (The association) of the Florida Condominium Act covers "Official Records." (a) of the subsection defines the official records as:

"9. A current copy of any management agreement, lease, or other contract to which the association is a party or under which the association or the unit owners have an obligation or responsibility."

Any written request to make public records available must be complied with
within 10 working days.

Moreover, the statute further states:

"(c) The official records of the association are open to inspection by any association member or the authorized representative of such member at all reasonable times. The right to inspect the records includes the right to make or obtain copies, at the reasonable expense, if any, of the association member. The association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the frequency, time, location, notice, and manner of record inspections and copying. The failure of an association to provide the records within 10 working days after receipt of a written request shall create a rebuttable presumption that the association willfully failed to comply with this paragraph. A unit owner who is denied access to official records is entitled to the actual damages or minimum damages for the association's willful failure to comply with this paragraph. The minimum damages shall be $50 per calendar day up to 10 days, the calculation to begin on the 11th working day after receipt of the written request. The failure to permit inspection of the association records as provided herein entitles any person prevailing in an enforcement action to recover reasonable attorney's fees from the person in control of the records who, directly or indirectly, knowingly denied access to the records for inspection. The association shall maintain an adequate number of copies of the declaration, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and rules, and all amendments to each of the foregoing, as well as the question and answer sheet provided for in s. 718.504 and year-end financial information required in this section on the condominium property to ensure their availability to unit owners and prospective purchasers, and may charge its actual costs for preparing and furnishing these documents to those requesting the same. Notwithstanding the provisions of this paragraph, the following records shall not be accessible to unit owners: ... (mainly privileged information)."

Here's where to find the Florida condo act:

http://www.ccfj.net/condo718statutes.html#718.111

Since I'm not too upset by the MF I pay, I'm not going to hassle Starwood or the associations about them. But, now you have a roadmap. Get going!

"Rather than bitching here about never being able to see the Bella management contract, how about requesting it, reading it and letting us know how it is deficient?"



Thank you for the road map.
The comment I made was not in regard to VV Bella, or any other Florida timeshare. Your effort is nonetheless appreciated.

I also did not claim or suggest that the management agreement I was referring to was "deficient". I had voiced no complaint about them.

Nor was I "bitching" about anything. I was commiserating with a fellow Tugger about experiences he shared with this board, and his opinions of them. In that dialog, I suggested that the operations management agreement would offer better insight to fees, and services. Of course, that is true. I also stated that I had not read them. And while I did comment about the difficulty in obtaining a copy, the substance was not in being able to change them.
What is your point, if any?

"Since I'm not too upset by the MF I pay, I'm not going to hassle Starwood or the associations about them. But, now you have a roadmap. Get going!"


Jarta, I do not recall ever, not once, ever, saying or implying that I was upset with the m/f' s I pay. Not in this thread, or any other. But, I would not consider an inquiry about them a hassle to those who publish and account for them, upset or not.

But, you are upset about SOMETHING. Before you get yourself worked up, take the time to actually read and understand the course of the thread, and the comments you are too quick to criticize. Until then, your self- righteous and misplaced comments do not constructively contribute to the discussion. Did you say "Get going!"?

 

[jarta]

Fred, ... "What is your point, if any?"

My point is that you imply that Starwood is made up of sharp business people who are increasing MF unnecessarily through the use of the management contract. Yet, you have not taken the time to request that management contract. It is undoubtedly a lengthy document.

Should Starwood send a copy to every unit owner every time a budget is adopted? Or, should Starwood follow the Florida statute and make the document available upon request?

Same for the budget detail, same for the monthly financials and yearly audits, same for the contracts for repairs and the bills and records of payment. All are "official records" under the Florida statute, subsection 12 (Records) of section 718.111 of the Florida Condominium Act.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...teYear=2008&Title=->2008->Chapter 718->Part I

There has been constant carping here about MF increases (see the title of the thread) and claims made that Starwood is intentionally not "transparent" enough. But, there has not been any statement that any property managed by Starwood has refused a request for an official record.

I am not defending the amount of the MF increases or implying that Starwood never sneaks costs incurred by it that should not be paid by the HOA (or POA) into the budget. What I am saying is that those who complain that Starwood is doing just that should first make a request to see the documents, read them and, then, point out where the impropriety occurs or is made possible - not just speculate that impropriety exists because the MF went up.

It's a matter of fairness to the boards in charge of the properties and the management company, Starwood.

As for whether you have never said or implied that you were upset about your MF, I'll let people read your posts on this thread and decide for themselves about implications in your posts.

While you consider my comments "self righteous and misplaced," they were made in response to your misinformed and erroneous comment: "Get the management contract changed? It would be a giant step if we can get to read it. Assuming that is even possible (probably not), owners have no voting clout under the current association agreements."

And, rather than speculation, my post contained factual information (and a challenge you are obviously not interested in meeting).

You and anyone else now have a blueprint for obtaining information from Starwood considered necessary to evaluate their MF. I think the blueprint should be used by those who don't agree with their MF and consider Starwood not transparent enough to, if necessary, coerce transparency. I assume you noticed that minimum daily damages and attorney fees are to be awarded if the request for information is not complied with. Owners are not without protections under the statute.

Since you were commenting about Bella and do not list where you own in your TUG profile, I assumed you owned at Bella. You say you don't. However, if you own elsewhere, the condo act of every state I know of provides for the release of similar information to owners upon request. Florida is not unique. ... eom

 

[Scott & Laura]

MF Increases

I did attempt to get an understanding and clarification of the MF fee increases from Starwood.

I asked at several owner updates about the MF fees. At one session the gentleman gave me a suggestion of who to try to contact and an email address to try.

I followed through and emailed my questions and request about clarifying how the MF fees were calculated for WKORV. I also asked about why the MF's were increasing at a higher prate then they are telling people in the sales presentations.

Starwood responded that they did not have to provide the information. I figured that was a mistake and attempted on several other times to get the info. My last understanding from Starwood was that their legal department indicated they did not have to provide that information.

In a "Service industry" rife with horror stories and documented abuses, transparency and above board dealings to insure comfort with fee increases and a thorough explanation of such fees are of paramount importance. Any MBA is schooled in getting customers to complain and and often so that corrections can be made.A satisfied customer who had problems resolved favorably is more loyal than a customer who never had any issues. Its good business.

The fact that Starwood does not give a straightforward clear and concise explanation of their MF fee increases and post them on their web site is poor business at the least. Confusion breeds resentment and dissatisfaction.

The overt refusal and legal department stating they doi not have to clarify at best creates a modicum of distrust.

Its an honest and fair question to ask- WHY HAVE THE MF FEES GONE UP AT SUCH A HIGH %. We are asked to pay blindly and trust them.

Starwood knows that by not answering this damages the owners trust relationship - AND YET THEY REFUSE.

It begets the question - why don't they answer and why are MF going up at a faster rate than Starwood represents to potential purchasers?

Its a service company in an industry known to have ripped off people. Its like defending brokerage houses who say trust me with your money. Unaddressed fears and concerns will beget distrust and anger.

Why does Starwood want concerned owners when its easy issue to address in a straightforward manner.

Scott

 

[Scott & Laura]

MF Increases

I did attempt to get an understanding and clarification of the MF fee increases from Starwood.

I asked at several owner updates about the MF fees. At one session the gentleman gave me a suggestion of who to try to contact and an email address to try.

I followed through and emailed my questions and request about clarifying how the MF fees were calculated for WKORV. I also asked about why the MF's were increasing at a higher rate then STARWOOD was telling people in the sales presentations 3-4 % a year maximum.

Starwood responded that they did not have to provide the information. I figured that was a mistake and attempted on several other times to get the info. My last understanding from Starwood was that their legal department indicated they did not have to provide that information.

In a "Service industry" rife with horror stories and documented abuses, transparency and above board dealings to insure comfort with fee increases and a thorough explanation of such fees are of paramount importance. Any MBA is schooled in getting customers to complain and and often so that corrections can be made.A satisfied customer who had problems resolved favorably is more loyal than a customer who never had any issues. Its good business.

The fact that Starwood does not give a straightforward clear and concise explanation of their MF fee increases and post them on their web site is poor business at the least. Confusion breeds resentment and dissatisfaction.

The overt refusal and legal department stating they doi not have to clarify at best creates a modicum of distrust.

Its an honest and fair question to ask- WHY HAVE THE MF FEES GONE UP AT SUCH A HIGH %. We are asked to pay blindly and trust them.

Starwood knows that by not answering this damages the owners trust relationship - AND YET THEY REFUSE.

It begets the question - why don't they answer and why are MF going up at a faster rate than Starwood represents to potential purchasers?

Its a service company in an industry known to have ripped off people. Its like defending brokerage houses who say trust me with your money. Unaddressed fears and concerns will beget distrust and anger.

Why does Starwood want concerned owners when its easy issue to address in a straightforward manner.

Scott

 

[jarta]

Scott & Laura, ... What I posted is that Starwood must make available to you all types of information. I did not say that Starwood has to explain to you what the informations means. They do not. You have to do that yourself.

The short answer is that MF are tied to expenditures. If the expenditures keep rising, the MF must go up to cover the increasing expenditures - or else the property will run at a loss.

I have served on community property boards the last 6 years. None were Starwood's. I can tell you that the cost of property insurance went through the roof after 9-11. Was it that Osama really had his eye on our property? Or, was it an insurance company gouging. But, you need insurance. Same thing goes for the cost of electricity. Same goes for landscaping costs. In general, same goes for taxes.

And, popular timeshare locations, running almost full tilt almost every week, tend to beat up the furniture quicker than furniture in one's home. They are victims of their own success because the more use; the quicker the furniture needs to be replaced. As with every property, while it is fresh and new (when most people buy), the maintenance costs are low; as it ages, more attention has to be paid to maintaining the property. Or, the property begins to resemble those timeshares in the middle of the woods that nobody wants to go to - or even manage.

In the end, the question must be this: even with higher maintenance fees, is there still value to you in keeping the timeshare. Do you enjoy it enough to pay the cost? These are questions that must be answered individually. And, not all answers need be the same. Nobody guarantees the wisdom of your investment, be it a share of stock, a home or a timeshare. The prices of all are dropping. It's a tough economy!

But, if you want to see the reason for the increases in MF for the last few years, I think a good start would be to take a look at the financials and look to see the increase in expenses for the last few years. Unless the property is running a profit that is being channeled into the reserve fund to avoid paying taxes on it, I think you will see that previous year's expenses and the next year's budget and MF necessary to balance it track closely.

I feel Starwood can be at times high handed, inefficient and frustrating to deal with. However, I am happy because I think it runs the best, most flexible timeshare operation in the industry. But, you are entitled to a different opinion.

Finally, you can look at the Marriott board and the Hilton board and the Wyndham board (and anywhere else) and you will see many complaints about increasing MF for timeshare unit owners. The complaints here are not unique.

 

[Politico]

Jarta--

Do you work for Starwood? Seems like maybe so...

 

[pharmgirl]

"And, popular timeshare locations, running almost full tilt almost every week, tend to beat up the furniture quicker than furniture in one's home. They are victims of their own success because the more use; the quicker the furniture needs to be replaced. As with every property, while it is fresh and new (when most people buy), the maintenance costs are low; as it ages, more attention has to be paid to maintaining the property. Or, the property begins to resemble those timeshares in the middle of the woods that nobody wants to go to - or even manage."

Agree - that is why I am concerned about MFs, these have a charge included -pretty substantial that is supposed to cover relacing furniture,etc. However, it appears that some locations (STJ?) have also addded on a substantial fee when updating - why is this occpuring??? if renovation fees are charged at time of updating then REMOVE the yearly "replacement charge"

 

[jarta]

Politico, ... "Do you work for Starwood? Seems like maybe so..."

Never worked for Starwood. Never represented them. Never talk to anyone there except the people I call when I'm making a reservation or when I'm staying at a resort. All I do is own there. I'm an attorney in Chicago.

But, as I said in prior posts, I just voluntarily retired from being on homeowner association boards for the last six years. During that time, I had interaction with that small percentage of non-board owners who constantly complained and wanted to micro-manage the association without any idea of how it functioned. I think every association has them.

They are compelled by their nature to complain. They do not want to learn how the property functions and do not realize why a suggestion that seems practical to them may be practically impossible. So, because the property manager and the board will not promptly do exactly what they suggest, they make noise.

It's part of the loss of control people accept (sometimes very grudgingly) when they own in an association community. Community living is not for everyone.

What I find particularly irritating is that most of the complaining here is by people who it is apparent wouldn't know how to understand a budget or a financial report - if they even took the proper steps and the time to look at a copy.

Again, I'll repeat that Starwood is not perfect. It is a large, impersonal company that can be accused of being high handed, inefficient and frustrating to deal with. I assume it's property management division is quite profitable. But, overall, I think it has the best, most flexible timeshare system at a reasonable cost given the amenities, location and quality of the properties.

So, rather than worrying excessively about the increases in MF that all timeshare properties seem to be suffering, I will enjoy my vacations from the cold - 3 of them over the next 10 weeks.

And, you have every right to disagree with me. But, I have as much right as you to post here. So, please don't impugn my motive for posting by snidely implying I work for Starwood. ... eom

 

[Politico]

And, you have every right to disagree with me. But, I have as much right as you to post here. So, please don't impugn my motive for posting by snidely implying I work for Starwood.

As you concede, as much as you have every right to be a Starwood apologist, I have every right to criticize your rationale/motive. And we'll leave it at that...

 

[LisaRex]

What I find particularly irritating is that most of the complaining here is by people who it is apparent wouldn't know how to understand a budget or a financial report - if they even took the proper steps and the time to look at a copy.

I'm the Budget Coordinator for a Fortune 25 international corporation. I assure you that I know how budgets work and how to read financial reports. As such, I'm also well acquainted how the game works; one can hide a myriad of sins in a topline report. The real discernment begins with the details.

Example:

Topline report:

Furniture Replacement - $125,000

Sounds reasonable. But I'd like more details. Because $125,000 to replace 500 teak lounge chairs ($250 apiece) is reasonable. $125,000 to replace 50 lounge chairs ($2500 apiece) is not. That is the difference between fiscal management and fiscal mismanagement.

****

What I find irritating is someone who pats me on the head and tells the little lady to just pay up and shut up. Blind faith in anything is idiotic; blind faith in a corporation that even you believe to be "high handed, inefficient and frustrating to deal with" is doubly idiotic.

 

[jarta]

Lisa, ... Last year it cost me and my wife about $230 each to fly round trip from Chicago to Phoenix on Southwest. This year it's almost $400 per person. By comparison, my MF at Kierland for a Platinum 2-br went up $50.

My tickets for this month's trip to Cancun on were bought last January and cost $330 per person. That type of price is merely a pipedream now.

The cost to fly to Hawaii, forgeddaboudit (and, apparently, many have. The most vocal complainers here own in Hawaii.)

But, if you want to stay at a hotel in Hawaii or Cancun or Scottsdale, in addition to the hotel charges, you have to get there. Is that Starwood's fault?

I've seen posts about the Jonas Brothers concerts at Harborside this Spring break. People seem to be saying they will spend the $195 per ticket for their kids. Thank goodness my kids are grown and the grandkids are small. And, yet, there are complaints about potential increases in MF at Harborside -even though MSC says a reduction may occur.

I know the MF at Kierland are low, but I have 2 nice lockoff rooms for a 2009 week in March for less than $1,1500 in MF (or could have reserved 1 nice room for 14 days for the same price). And, I can use the Kierland Hotel facilities. How much would similar lodging at the Kierland Hotel cost? Is my timeshare a bargain - even figuring in the cost of amortization of my initial investment? You bet it is!

I think my timeshares in Cancun are also a bargain. Harborside is less a bargain, but I bought (secondary market) with my eyes open. And, with the StarPoints I got from Starwood, I'm staying for 3 days (2 rooms each day) this June in Copenhagen before and after a Baltic cruise for "free" (60,000 options, really, out of 300,000 I got with my Starwood purchases).

The problem is that vacationing has become much more expensive in the last year and timesharing, while still cheaper than almost anything else, is more expensive than it was. Such is life these days. As I said, I'm glad my kids are grown.

Now, I've got better things to do (like enjoying my bargains) than belly-aching about a $50 increase at Kierland, no increase (yet) at Cancun and a posted potential decrease at Harborside and poring through Starwood financials and budgets looking for minute savings. I did that for 6 years while on the board of my HOA associations and still do it virtually every day in my law practice. Now, like most everyone here, I need to enjoy vacations.

But, you may do as you wish. However, unfortunately, I doubt you will end up making stays at Starwood timeshare destinations substantially cheaper. ... eom

 

[LisaRex]

I wouldn't "bellyache" about anything if my MFs only increased $50/year. As long as Starwood is allowed to stacks the HOAs, I don't trust them to represent my interests. You don't put the fox in charge of the hen house.

 

[Troopers]

It's interesting to me that the "lack of love for Starwood" recently (6 to 9 months ago) surfaced here on TUG. My recollection years ago (prior to Starwood having it's independent sub-forum) that there were few complaints. There were few complaints about MF and this and that but certainly not to the same extent as today.

Just an observation....I haven't thought about it too much so I'm not sure what it really means anyways.

Btw, forgive me if my memory is failing me...

 

[DeniseM]

It's interesting to me that the "lack of love for Starwood" recently (6 to 9 months ago) surfaced here on TUG. My recollection years ago (prior to Starwood having it's independent sub-forum) that there were few complaints. There were few complaints about MF and this and that but certainly not to the same extent as today.

Just an observation....I haven't thought about it too much so I'm not sure what it really means anyways.

Btw, forgive me if my memory is failing me...

We've actually had a separate forum for 14 mos. The onset of the disenchantment with Starwood, and the addition of the forum, are just a coincidence.

The real issue is that Starwood has made all kinds of changes during that time which devalued our ownership, while at the same time raising maintenance fees, and levying high special assessments, at several resorts.

At the same time, Starwood's lack of communication with owners has been dismal to the point of being intentional, and they seem to be completely unaware of the state of our economy, and the impact on owners.

 

[DavidnRobin]

LR and DM posts are EXACTLY correct...

e.g. - whether or not Starwood sales passes misinfomation about MF increases is not the point - they can claim almost anything verbally because of the 'negma' clause - anything signed in the contract overrides what was committed verbally.

the overriding issue - is the 'intentional' blocking by SVO for Owner access to to the HOA, and fair representation (not talking anarchy here...)

...whether they are fairly overseeing the resort or not.

 

[Ken555]

Blind faith in anything is idiotic; blind faith in a corporation that even you believe to be "high handed, inefficient and frustrating to deal with" is doubly idiotic.

I agree completely. We need more transparency from SVN on the budgets (and everything else).

 

[Troopers]

I echo the concerns raised by others. However, in my life, there are more much important things that need and deserve my time, effort and energy.

To answer the OP's question about the increasing MFs, I'm ok with it.

 

[Scott & Laura]

Mf Fees

I apologize to Jarta;

I had neglected to state that prior to my emails requesting clarifications from Starwood that I had asked for the financial statements for WKORV. I had wished to look at them and get a sense of what was happening.

Jarta as an attorney and i am sure you would agree, that when presented a yearly bill for expenses and other items, that one can meaningfully review them for legitimacy and accuracy, in light of the fact we are "OWNERS".

I would suggest looking at the weekly charges for electricity per room and extrapolate that for 52 weeks, its seems exceedingly excessive, on the face but may be entirely appropriate. One can't know unless records are made available for inspection, and Starwood has refused to.

I think owners asking to review and an explanation from a management company is entirely reasonable, despite the fact you served on an owners group.Starwood has done everything possible to exclude owners from the annual meeting, such as refusal to send reasonable notice.

I am taken aback by your uneducated and quick pronouncement that the TUG members would not have the ability to read or understand financials, and imply somehow you are better able to.

Scott.

 

[DeniseM]

I echo the concerns raised by others. However, in my life, there are more much important things that need and deserve my time, effort and energy.

Fair enough, but if that's true, why are you reading and responding to all these posts?

 

[Troopers]

Fair enough, but if that's true, why are you reading and responding to all these posts?

I was fortunate to have discovered TUG several yrs ago which allowed me to purchase my TS (and a pending second wk at WKORV). I would have never paid the developer's price. Without TUG, I would have never purchased a TS. And so, I'm grateful to you, other TUGgers and TUG...I owe much more than a $10 annual membership.

My statement is in regards to actually doing something about the issues. Simply voicing it here is somewhat fruitless. I applaud those that are going to do something about it....to get Starwood to do the right thing. I believe that it will take considerable effort. We all pick our own battles...mine is the local government (not intended to get political here). Until these issues or future issues start to become a serious problem for me, my available time to fight for the good fight will not be Starwood.

 

[jarta]

Scott & Laura, ... "Jarta as an attorney and i am sure you would agree, that when presented a yearly bill for expenses and other items, that one can meaningfully review them for legitimacy and accuracy, in light of the fact we are "OWNERS"."

Sure, you can obtain all sorts of official documents. And, for Florida timeshares, I posted what are considered official documents, how to request them and even highlighted the area of the statute where liquidated damages of at least $50 per day should be awarded (plus attorney's fees) to the requestor if the request is not timely complied with (within 10 days). The person who implied you can't get documents didn't seem interested in using the statute.

Here's a link to the Hawaii statute about what is available:

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol12_Ch0501-0588/HRS0514B/HRS_0514B-0154.htm

Maybe you'd want to use it.

And how would you "meaningly review" a yearly bill for a category of expense? Would you ask to see each of the paid bills for the preceding year so you could check the price and total them up? Or, would you look at the figures in the auditor's yearly report and rely on his certification that the numbers are accurate?

I'm sorry but, like Troopers, I have better things to do than pore through old bills - like enjoy my weeks in the sun.

As for why Troopers and I respond to posts here, the thread is about how you feel about MF increases. Funny, but nobody asks why you post on this thread. You are very concerned. We are not. All of us TUGgers have a right to post here about how we feel about MF increases.

For my 5 weeks (all 2-br or larger in Platinum), the total increase so far - Harborside is MIA - is about $50. So, is it surprising that I don't see much of a problem? ... eom

 

[DavidnRobin]

I am sorry, but if this is not your battle - then why post and insinuate that we are clueless and non-productive? Talk about being non-productive...

From my personal WSJ experience - I had some success in getting the WSJ-VG HOA to respond to ongong and increasing maintenance issues by starting a small group of Owners to speak-up. So an Owner revolt can be successful and have impact. (of course - now they are charging us a special assessment of $2400 over 3 years... lol).

As I have eluded to - it may be better to localize the battle to a particular resort than SVO as a whole. In addition - it is probably be wise to pick a battle than can be successful with little cost - outside of a time commitment.

So how about proposing a plan focusing on WKORV?

As stated - a big issue is the lack of Owner represention and transparency on SVO HOAs that impact many of the issues being discussed here. This is what I like to see changed and have some hope that it can be altered.

Since many Tuggers that post here own WKORV (although many more read this forum w/o posting) and many of the HOA issues are reflective of what is happening at WKORV - I propose we focus on WKORV (and perhaps other SVO HOA will be forced to follow).

Also - I own at WKORV - so I have selfish reasons...

What does this mean?

First, is to find those here willing to spend the time and effort.

Second, would be to go over the docs in WKORV OM to find out what rights we have, and where there are gaps that can be exploited to meet the following initial goal:

1) Forcing the WKORV HOA to have better communication between Owners, and between Owners and the HOA.

After this goal is attained - then perhaps the others can be acheived (e.g. transparancy, accountability, etc.).

So... how about it? Who's in? I am...
{sorry to focus on WKORV - but I think the best hope is here}

 

[vacationtime1]

Although WKORV would be a good place to start, it will be difficult. The section "Special Rights of the Developer . . . " (paragraph 17 of the final section of the WKORV disclosure documentation, and very accurately named) includes the following provision:

"The Association must furnish a list of the Owners to the Developer upon request. It may not furnish the list to anyone else without first notifying the Developer and giving the Developer an opportunity to object to release of the list."
​

This makes it tough to get any large group of owners organized or even to get homeowner representation on the Board. The paragraph does not provide the basis on which the Developer may object and the provision may be illegal or unenforceable, especially insofar as it restricts electioneering for HOA Board membership. But it puts a gigantic roadblock in the path of forcing accountability.

This provision is a perfect example of the opaqueness about which many in this thread have complained. It very strongly suggests that Starwood is not very likely to ever change this policy.

As I have said in other posts -- if Starwood did not have such fabulous properties, I would sell them all.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Thanks - this is exactly the discourse I am proposing here - I think that this may be a point of opportunity/challenge.

 

[Westin5Star]

David,
You can count me in. I cannot devote a ton of time to this but I would be happy participate in some planning meetings and to tackle some smaller projects delegated to me. For me it is about the principle of the situation!