New Wyndham Website: feedback on pros/cons for formal submission to Wyndham

[comicbookman]

The value in MVP is that you don't waste resources or your program fee money developing features no one wants or uses. Obviously they missed the mark on the Calendar, and there may be a reason they left out the floor plans initially. I am not sure what takes to load thousands of floor plans into the system on top of everything else that had to get moved over. The contractor may have given you the option but would have done what you would have wanted, provided you'd be willing to pay for it. Many companies do MVP because it saves money and reduces the junk that gets moved to the new system.

Edit: I found the comment you made about getting an error when you tried to deposit points. How many do you know of, have gotten "An error has occurred" (or something of that nature)?

I have seen at lest a half dozen reports of people who cannot deposit points online. MVP on this scale just means they are outsourcing the development to us. When you roll out a product for several hundred thousand users, you should have fewer obvious bugs. If you are debating which features to keep, survey the entire user group. If not for the fact that i work for a government agency, I could see myself being fired for rolling out something this important, this poorly. Especially after the last time they rolled out a new website. While i appreciate all you and Hichhiker are doing, we should not have to trust your opinion, we should have had actual input. As for our efforts getting any traction, having been with fairfield/wyndham for almost 30 years, I will believe that when I see actual improvements.

 

[comicbookman]

've also gone to great pains not to get involved in debating the finer points of modern software development methodologies as I don't see the point especially here on TUG.

While I very much appreciate your work here, you have also repeatedly downplayed complaints by explaining the methodology. I have been in the IT field since the early 90's and it was a hobby for a decade before that. This is a sloppy product from a company with a history of sloppy IT work. If this is an example of what you consider acceptable methodology, then I am glad you don't work for me. A company that pays lip service to caring about owners/users, but has done nothing for decades to fix their deceptive selling practices does not inspire confidence in when they say, hey hear you and we are fixing things. Based on the last roll-out experience They have no business releasing anything with this many deficiencies and thinking job well done.

 

[CCdad]

This is a great list; I applaud both your efforts in tracking it and leading the communication with WD personnel!

Comments

5 Regression - I’m okay with PPI not being made available once a reservation is confirmed if the reason that PPI isn’t available is because they’re allowing rolling 48 hour cancellations without penalty until all resorts are fully online and operational. It doesn’t do any good to pay for PPI when the rolling 48 hour cancellation period is being extended due to stay in place orders with resorts not fully operating (pools, food service, etc).

5 Enhancement - only showing reservation searches for resort units that an owner has available points to book with. This is going to be way too complex to add.

When you have to consider in the programming logic the:
A) capability to both borrow points for searches with a check in date starting within the next 90 days AND/OR
B) being able to rent points to fulfill the last day of a prime reservation outside the Express booking window,
it’s beyond my reasonable expectation that this could be executed properly.

I’d much rather they prioritize their supporting calculations for points that can vs cannot be deposited forward AND/OR supporting calculations for what points can vs cannot be deposited into RCI.

You’ve likely got programming complications in these Regressions / Enhancements for items like awarded Bonus points, one time points awarded for customer satisfaction issues, prorated points returned for guests checking out prior to COVID-19 shutdowns, PIC points, etc. And tracking which points categories that confirmed reservations get pulled from when some of these instances are in play could be daunting.


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[Richelle]

I have seen at lest a half dozen reports of people who cannot deposit points online. MVP on this scale just means they are outsourcing the development to us. When you roll out a product for several hundred thousand users, you should have fewer obvious bugs. If you are debating which features to keep, survey the entire user group. If not for the fact that i work for a government agency, I could see myself being fired for rolling out something this important, this poorly. Especially after the last time they rolled out a new website. While i appreciate all you and Hichhiker are doing, we should not have to trust your opinion, we should have had actual input. As for our efforts getting any traction, having been with fairfield/wyndham for almost 30 years, I will believe that when I see actual improvements.

You have zero information on what goes on behind the scenes. Nothing I’m going to do is going to convince you that they have in fact done testing. A lot of it. Nothing I’m going to say is going to convince you that this isn’t a disaster you are making it out to be and that they are going in the correct direction. We are asking you to trust our opinion backed by years of change management and IT experiences. We’ve been through projects like this. You see four bugs and sixteen regressions and make it out to be the worst rollout ever. Nothing I’m going to say is going to convince you otherwise, so I’m not going to try to. If you want to supply something constructive that could actually help make the site better, we are all ears. If you want to bash Wyndham and their new website, there is another thread you can do that in. This one is for HitchHiker71 to get information we can take back to the people who need to hear it. Let’s keep this thread a productive one.

 

[comicbookman]

You have zero information on what goes on behind the scenes. Nothing I’m going to do is going to convince you that they have in fact done testing. A lot of it. Nothing I’m going to say is going to convince you that this isn’t a disaster you are making it out to be and that they are going in the correct direction. We are asking you to trust our opinion backed by years of change management and IT experiences. We’ve been through projects like this. You see four bugs and sixteen regressions and make it out to be the worst rollout ever. Nothing I’m going to say is going to convince you otherwise, so I’m not going to try to. If you want to supply something constructive that could actually help make the site better, we are all ears. If you want to bash Wyndham and their new website, there is another thread you can do that in. This one is for HitchHiker71 to get information we can take back to the people who need to hear it. Let’s keep this thread a productive one.

Actually i did make suggestions early on. I just have a hard time being talked down to and being told oh trust us we know better. Especially when dealing with wyndham. I like their product, but not their lack of scruples and have been an owner for over 25 years. I use it a lot. At my peek I owned over 2 million points, and i rarely rent. I applaud what you and Hitchhiker are doing, but feel compelled, just as you seem to be, to comment on their motives and methods. I am sure they have spent much time building this. But my decades of IT and management experience don't agree that dumping something to hundreds of thousands of users that has such visible flaws is a job well done. For every visible flaw, you can bet there are several hidden flaws. Using users as unpaid developers without even asking is just bad customer service. Saying that is just modern development technique is just making excuses for excessive cost cutting. Getting upset that not everyone who doesn't know you at all, did not ask or elect you to represent their often substantial investment, and does not agree with you is a perfect example of why this is a bad system. Hopefully we get something good out of it. Given Wyndham's track record and your defensiveness, I am not holding my breath, but i hope to be pleasantly surprised. I really find it offensive to be told to be talked down to.

 

[Cyrus24]

You have zero information on what goes on behind the scenes. Nothing I’m going to do is going to convince you that they have in fact done testing. A lot of it. Nothing I’m going to say is going to convince you that this isn’t a disaster you are making it out to be and that they are going in the correct direction. We are asking you to trust our opinion backed by years of change management and IT experiences. We’ve been through projects like this. You see four bugs and sixteen regressions and make it out to be the worst rollout ever. Nothing I’m going to say is going to convince you otherwise, so I’m not going to try to. If you want to supply something constructive that could actually help make the site better, we are all ears. If you want to bash Wyndham and their new website, there is another thread you can do that in. This one is for HitchHiker71 to get information we can take back to the people who need to hear it. Let’s keep this thread a productive one.

It's best if you say nothing, there is no reason to defend Wyndham on this. It's offensive hearing from all the IT experts that should be listening to the customers. A list of fixes has been created, let's just see if they actually make the fixes.

 

[Rolltydr]

It's best if you say nothing, there is no reason to defend Wyndham on this. It's offensive hearing from all the IT experts that should be listening to the customers. A list of fixes has been created, let's just see if they actually make the fixes.

According to Apple Corporation founder, Steve Jobs, the customer doesn’t know what they want until you give it to them. The customer didn’t know they wanted the Apple computer, the iPhone, the iPad, etc., etc., because they had never had them. There was no IT until it was created. If designers had waited for the customer to tell them what they wanted, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion because there wouldn’t be a Wyndham website. Actually, there wouldn’t be a TUG website, either.

 

[jcraycraft]

My upcoming reservations list has omissions and duplications this morning

 

[Eric B]

My upcoming reservations list has omissions and duplications this morning

Maybe you just didn't know you wanted that....

According to Apple Corporation founder, Steve Jobs, the customer doesn’t know what they want until you give it to them. The customer didn’t know they wanted the Apple computer, the iPhone, the iPad, etc., etc., because they had never had them. There was no IT until it was created. If designers had waited for the customer to tell them what they wanted, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion because there wouldn’t be a Wyndham website. Actually, there wouldn’t be a TUG website, either.

 

[comicbookman]

According to Apple Corporation founder, Steve Jobs, the customer doesn’t know what they want until you give it to them. The customer didn’t know they wanted the Apple computer, the iPhone, the iPad, etc., etc., because they had never had them. There was no IT until it was created. If designers had waited for the customer to tell them what they wanted, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion because there wouldn’t be a Wyndham website. Actually, there wouldn’t be a TUG website, either.

But Apple made sure not to remove features that already existed that there research told them the customers liked. He was referring to new features. Also, customers didn't really want the Apple computer. The company had to be bailed out several times (once by Bill Gates) until they got it right with the iipod, iphone, ipad family.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Noone has to trust our opinions and nowhere did we say we know better than anyone else. The volume of assumptions and assertions that some people make here on TUG is sometimes staggering to the imagination. As has been repeatedly stated here - please also provide any/all feedback directly via the website and/or your own connections. In reality - we're not providing any feedback to Wyndham that they aren't already receiving via other established feedback mechanisms. So at most, what we're providing is primarily additonal validation of known issues and requested enhancements. While a small and very noisy subset of people both here on TUG and elsewhere want to paint a "worst case" picture - for reasons that quite frankly escape me from a value add standpoint (What does doing this actually accomplish on this website? - beyond commiseration that makes people feel better perhaps?). That said, at least in some cases the complaints are based upon past performance - for very good reasons - but past performance does not equal future results as we all know. Will we see different results? I hope so, but only time will tell. I choose to stay positive until and unless I have real data to show otherwise. To date, I'm more encouraged than I am discouraged.

If @Richelle and I have done the hard work to build meaningful relationships within Wyndham that we can then actually utilize to effect change - then kudos to us quite frankly. Honestly, I've found TUG to be of somewhat diminishing value over the past year because there is a subset of users who, at least based upon my observations, do nothing but complain about their Wyndham user experiences while, at least from what I've observed, doing nothing to attempt to effect change based upon those same experiences. I decided to do the hard work to actually build some relationships to attempt to effect real change. I've attended annual owner meetings - met with executives - followed up with executives repeatedly over time - responded to inquiries and provided meaningful feedback when asked to do so - and have built some relationships that I can now leverage for our collective benefit. @Richelle has done the same things - we've done much of it together actually. We believe that we will get out of it what we put into it - effort is rewarded - talk is cheap.

Please keep the feedback specific to regressions/bugs/enhancements coming.

 

[HitchHiker71]

My upcoming reservations list has omissions and duplications this morning

I've seen this issue in other threads and on FB forums as well - I will add this to our regressions list. If you are willing to provide screenshots, whether via reply or DM to show an actual example - it would be most appreciated.

 

[kaljor]

But Apple made sure not to remove features that already existed that there research told them the customers liked.

Well except for the headphone jack and the home button!

 

[JimmieJames1]

A minor inconvenience which I would like corrected: In the previous version when making a reservation I only needed to click on the email address box and it listed my email addresses and upon choosing one it self-populated into the box. In the present version I have to type out my email address - just more key strokes to make a reservation than it used to take.

 

[Rolltydr]

But Apple made sure not to remove features that already existed that there research told them the customers liked. He was referring to new features. Also, customers didn't really want the Apple computer. The company had to be bailed out several times (once by Bill Gates) until they got it right with the iipod, iphone, ipad family.

Sure, they did. They removed the headphone jack, several different ports, etc. before any of the other manufacturers and many of their customers and critics raised hell. Then, they kept using the Apple products and getting used to the changes. One thing about IT, if you don’t like change, you won’t like IT because by its very nature, it is going to change, and change more quickly than any other industry. Obviously, they care about what their customers think they want, but it isn’t their job to just provide what the customer wants. IT’s role is to lead the customer, not follow the customer.

Now, I’m not saying that Wyndham is a leading IT developer and I was definitely not pleased with the previous website. But, reading some of the posts by people not liking the changes in the new website is both funny and frustrating.

 

[Rolltydr]

Noone has to trust our opinions and nowhere did we say we know better than anyone else. The volume of assumptions and assertions that some people make here on TUG is sometimes staggering to the imagination. As has been repeatedly stated here - please also provide any/all feedback directly via the website and/or your own connections. In reality - we're not providing any feedback to Wyndham that they aren't already receiving via other established feedback mechanisms. So at most, what we're providing is primarily additonal validation of known issues and requested enhancements. While a small and very noisy subset of people both here on TUG and elsewhere want to paint a "worst case" picture - for reasons that quite frankly escape me from a value add standpoint (What does doing this actually accomplish on this website? - beyond commiseration that makes people feel better perhaps?). That said, at least in some cases the complaints are based upon past performance - for very good reasons - but past performance does not equal future results as we all know. Will we see different results? I hope so, but only time will tell. I choose to stay positive until and unless I have real data to show otherwise. To date, I'm more encouraged than I am discouraged.

If @Richelle and I have done the hard work to build meaningful relationships within Wyndham that we can then actually utilize to effect change - then kudos to us quite frankly. Honestly, I've found TUG to be of somewhat diminishing value over the past year because there is a subset of users who, at least based upon my observations, do nothing but complain about their Wyndham user experiences while, at least from what I've observed, doing nothing to attempt to effect change based upon those same experiences. I decided to do the hard work to actually build some relationships to attempt to effect real change. I've attended annual owner meetings - met with executives - followed up with executives repeatedly over time - responded to inquiries and provided meaningful feedback when asked to do so - and have built some relationships that I can now leverage for our collective benefit. @Richelle has done the same things - we've done much of it together actually. We believe that we will get out of it what we put into it - effort is rewarded - talk is cheap.

Please keep the feedback specific to regressions/bugs/enhancements coming.

Very well said, @HitchHiker71. I completely agree with your assessment.

 

[HitchHiker71]

A minor inconvenience which I would like corrected: In the previous version when making a reservation I only needed to click on the email address box and it listed my email addresses and upon choosing one it self-populated into the box. In the present version I have to type out my email address - just more key strokes to make a reservation than it used to take.

Great suggestion - I will add this to our list under the regressions.


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[kaljor]

I am not trying to justify the 4 bugs and 16 regressions. I am not saying they should not be addressed. All of them should be addressed, and promptly. I'm saying no website rollout is perfect. Unless you're behind the scenes when a new website is launched, you don't have a full view of the things that can and do go wrong. I have been behind the scenes. Something ALWAYS goes wrong. Mostly, it's on the end-users side, but not all of it. Sometimes things test well in the test environment but for some reason, they don't work after go live. I know what a website rollout looks like with good change management and bad change management. The fact that this isn't Voyager all over again should tell you they have learned from past mistakes.

I think a lot of people underestimate the complexity of modern day web sites. We take for granted that these systems just work, but it's not a simple thing. For now, the new site lets us do the core functions, and we can wait for the rest to be improved and it will probably improve relatively quickly.

 

[comicbookman]

Sure, they did. They removed the headphone jack, several different ports, etc. before any of the other manufacturers and many of their customers and critics raised hell. Then, they kept using the Apple products and getting used to the changes. One thing about IT, if you don’t like change, you won’t like IT because by its very nature, it is going to change, and change more quickly than any other industry. Obviously, they care about what their customers think they want, but it isn’t their job to just provide what the customer wants. IT’s role is to lead the customer, not follow the customer.

Now, I’m not saying that Wyndham is a leading IT developer and I was definitely not pleased with the previous website. But, reading some of the posts by people not liking the changes in the new website is both funny and frustrating.

Apple lost market share with some of the changes you mentioned. I like change. I don't like change just because. That is why i have had a very long career in IT.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Try it in portrait mode, mine doesn't show in landscape.

To close the loop on this issue that @Braindead was reporting - we discovered offline that he is using an iPad Pro and I was using a standard iPad 6th gen. iPadOS and iOS are different operating systems - and therefore the website behaves differently within Safari browser. Figured it’s worth a mention for anyone who uses iPads.


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[comicbookman]

Very well said, @HitchHiker71. I completely agree with your assessment.

No, you did not say that, Richelle however did:

You have zero information on what goes on behind the scenes. Nothing I’m going to do is going to convince you that they have in fact done testing. A lot of it. Nothing I’m going to say is going to convince you that this isn’t a disaster you are making it out to be and that they are going in the correct direction. We are asking you to trust our opinion backed by years of change management and IT experiences. We’ve been through projects like this.

My decades of IT and change management experience in the Utility field means I have a low tolerance for sloppy work. I find the above presumptuous at best and insulting at worst. I applaud what you are doing, just not the attitude that if I don't agree I must be an ignorant complainer. The fact that you have relationships with Wyndham is great, wish I had the free time during working hours to develop them. The fact that richelle believes this means the rest of us should not say anything unless we agree with her rosy picture is a problem. I also agree that tug contains many more complaints in the last couple years and less useful information (It has saved me thousands of dollars and oddles of points over the years). I don't tend to be one of them. I complain when I don't like something and I say nice things when those are warranted in my opinion. I also don't jump on people for mistakes with regard to Wyndham, as I have made many over the years. However, being told my opinion has no value because someone knows better, with no actual evidence, just an assertion, is exactly what has been going wrong with Tug lately.

 

[Rolltydr]

Apple lost market share with some of the changes you mentioned. I like change. I don't like change just because. That is why i have had a very long career in IT.

I think Apple recovered quite nicely from any temporary losses they may have had. I had a 38 year career in IT myself. I’m done.

 

[comicbookman]

I think Apple recovered quite nicely from any temporary losses they may have had. I had a 38 year career in IT myself. I’m done.

Apple did. they had decades of failure, followed by spectacular success. Ironically it was Gate' bailout (he saw that if apple went under the DOJ was going to come after microsoft sooner rather than later) that allowed them the breathing room to launch the ipod, which then spawned the ipad and iphone.

 

[BDMX2]

While I very much appreciate your work here, you have also repeatedly downplayed complaints by explaining the methodology. I have been in the IT field since the early 90's and it was a hobby for a decade before that. This is a sloppy product from a company with a history of sloppy IT work. If this is an example of what you consider acceptable methodology, then I am glad you don't work for me. A company that pays lip service to caring about owners/users, but has done nothing for decades to fix their deceptive selling practices does not inspire confidence in when they say, hey hear you and we are fixing things. Based on the last roll-out experience They have no business releasing anything with this many deficiencies and thinking job well done.

I agree, I super appreciate all of the work you've put in doing the UAT testing and documentation on this @HitchHiker71 , but the fact of the matter is that an END USER should not have to do WORK to document anything in the development process for a major company. You get major kudos from us, but you're certainly not being paid for all of this development work that you've been doing. I work on the business side of development for a large corporation and we've been using Agile for a bit over a year. I understand the method, but the releases shouldn't be going out to production with so many shortcomings, their definition of MVP is much too minimal for production.

 

[Rolltydr]

Apple did. they had decades of failure, followed by spectacular success. Ironically it was Gate' bailout (he saw that if apple went under the DOJ was going to come after microsoft sooner rather than later) that allowed them the breathing room to launch the ipod, which then spawned the ipad and iphone.

Sure, Bill Gates should get the credit for building Apple. It’s happy hour and you’ve made me want a drink. Maybe 2. Or 3.