Wyndham vs. Worldmark Resale Values

[LLW]

That is the one area I believe Wyndham has an advantage over Worldmark. With Worldmark, from 90 days to 13 month before check in you have to book at least 7 nights for any red season. For a white or blue season, you can reserve less than 7 nights. For red season, you can book the 7 nights at more than one resort; but the 7 nights have to be consecutive.

To do that, WM owners may book a couple of days at the end or beginning of the 7 night period at a resort with very low points/small unit size to be able to book the 4 or 5 days at the resort they want. The couple of days can be used by a guest or just "thrown away."

You can also book stand-alone days like I described above.

The other problem with WM when booking very popular resorts at very popular times is that their 13 month booking is not a "hard" 13 months. WM owners can start booking ahead of 13 months up to a month ahead if they have enough points to book the whole month. What I have found for the "normal" WM owner is that the prime units at prime resorts, especially those with a small number of total units, are gone prior to the 13 month booking window.

With Wyndham, the 13 month booking window is "hard", no jumping the line like WM owners can do.

Actually, I have never jumped the line but I consider that an advantage. Because you can link different locations together in grouped reservations, usually you just have to pay only a little bit over if you don't jump the line. I would not hesitate to use that feature if I have to. I just haven't needed to.

 

[LLW]

I think WorldMark might have the same ability to "trade up" as Wyndham does. In II, you can't enter an ongoing search for a unit larger than you are committing---that should be true for eather Wyndham or WorldMark in that exchange. RCI has no such restriction, and I would assume WorldMark owners can deposit small and request big, just as Wyndham owners can.

In II, for WM, you can deposit blue and request red in the same size. It often gives great exchanges.

Also, with both Request First and searches on line, for WM, you are only charged for what you get, not what you search with. Inside of Flexchange, you are only charged for a blue studio (4000 credits) even if you get a 4BR in red season.

 

[LLW]

I am not familiar with Wyndham Fairfield's rules, but other WM merits that I have not seen emphasized in this thread:

1. You can book midweek for any number of days and the points needed are often 50% of the weekend rates. Blue season is often 1/3 of red season. If you are retired and can vacation for 2 or 3 days mid-week in mid- and low season, your WM credits can really be stretched. That's especially important in these economic times.

2. WM has a very liberal cancellation policy. If you book 91 days to 13 months out, you can cancel up to 30 days before check-in without any penalty. If you book within 90 days, you can cancel up to 10 days before. If you book within 14 days, you can cancel up to 2 days before. Because WM has many drive-to locations with no airticket limitations, this flexibility can be used tremendously.

It can also play an important part for fly-to locations. For example, if you are planning an Orlando or Hawaiian vacation, you can book WM many months in advance, and buy air tickets for those dates as you see low prices. Then if you find a Flexchange at a Westin, Four Seasons, or Marriott, you can book the exchange, then cancel the WM reservation, with absolutely no penalty.

3. With WM, there is no guest fee. You can join with another WM owner (or a non-WM owner friend) to book a prime week (or 14 or any number of days if you want to jump the line) at different locations, jumping the line ahead of 13 months, or making up the 7-day minimum, putting the other owner's name on one of the grouped reservations as a guest, free of charge.

4. Because WM has no home resorts, you have the same advantage as any other WM owner in booking. At different times, you are free to choose a remote location or a city/amusement park location. You are also free to use a one bedroom for one vacation, and three 3BRs (or one 1BR and 2 3BRs) for another. You can choose high or low season, any day of the week, 3 months or 1 day, etc. You can rent points out one year and in the following year. You can choose nicer amenities one year and better location the next. The choices are limitless and all you have to do is to learn what choices you have. To learn, you can read the Owner Education Manual, go to Owner Education classes (attend as many as you want at no charge), join WMOwners.com and read or ask questions.............

5. You are free to attend quarterly WM Board meetings, and the Annual Owners meeting, to ask questions of the board members and Wyndham executives.

 

[bookworm]

LLW,

Good to get this perspective. These are helpful explanations for the OP. The cancellation policy is a plus - Wyndham gives back credits but they have some limitations and may require an extra transaction fee if all fees have been used up for the year (you get two days of transaction fees per 154K points).

 

[GeNioS]

These are helpful explanations for the OP.

If I could get all you guys in a room, the drinks would be on me for sure.

 

[mtribe]

Genios, I am from SLC/Bountiful. On the www.wmowners.com web site I am ekimebirt. I would be happy to talk to you in person about Worldmark. You can send me a private message there. WM is a great timeshare and we completely love it. Boca mentioned that it is good from SLC and he is correct. We Drive to ALL the WM resorts (except Hawaii) and really love it.

 

[GeNioS]

Genios, I am from SLC/Bountiful. On the www.wmowners.com web site I am ekimebirt. I would be happy to talk to you in person about Worldmark. You can send me a private message there. WM is a great timeshare and we completely love it. Boca mentioned that it is good from SLC and he is correct. We Drive to ALL the WM resorts (except Hawaii) and really love it.

mtribe....I joined the other forum and will be sending you a pm....actually, to be exact I'm in Bountiful as well...

Pardon me for bumping this back up, and the information in this thread has been huge in helping me understanding the systems....but....my original question still remains unanswered......why does Worldmark sell for thousands while Wyndham go unsold for pennies?

The only case seems to be Boca's early post citing fees and such. But for me, saving thousands up front and paying an extra $25 here and there seems like an easier, and less painless, way to get into a points based system. It may not be the most cost effective five or ten years down the road, but by then everything may have changed. And, even after Boca's case, people still chimed in that they thought Wyndham was better.

Plus, what happens if in 5 or 6 years, Worldmark maintenance fees equal or surpass Wyndhams...will the resale value on those drop to nothing so I can pick a Worldmark up for pennies?

Regarding fees and the relationship between them and timeshare cost. 154k points in Wyndham seem to have about the same fees as my 2br Marriott's. But my Marriott has no Internal trading system so I have to pay $100 just to trade into my own system. And I have to pay to split the lockoff. And, the II membership isn't built into my fees so that's extra (to me). And, I get zero free guest certificates. So, figuring on the fees argument, shouldn't Marriott's be the least expensive timeshare out there?

It seems to be that based on the 50/50 opinions of which is better that they'd be about the same price.....I mean, most people really don't research it as detailed as Boca's example, right? Is that really why they are thousands more?

 

[BocaBum99]

mtribe....I joined the other forum and will be sending you a pm....actually, to be exact I'm in Bountiful as well...

Pardon me for bumping this back up, and the information in this thread has been huge in helping me understanding the systems....but....my original question still remains unanswered......why does Worldmark sell for thousands while Wyndham go unsold for pennies?

The only case seems to be Boca's early post citing fees and such. But for me, saving thousands up front and paying an extra $25 here and there seems like an easier, and less painless, way to get into a points based system. It may not be the most cost effective five or ten years down the road, but by then everything may have changed. And, even after Boca's case, people still chimed in that they thought Wyndham was better.

Plus, what happens if in 5 or 6 years, Worldmark maintenance fees equal or surpass Wyndhams...will the resale value on those drop to nothing so I can pick a Worldmark up for pennies?

Regarding fees and the relationship between them and timeshare cost. 154k points in Wyndham seem to have about the same fees as my 2br Marriott's. But my Marriott has no Internal trading system so I have to pay $100 just to trade into my own system. And I have to pay to split the lockoff. And, the II membership isn't built into my fees so that's extra (to me). And, I get zero free guest certificates. So, figuring on the fees argument, shouldn't Marriott's be the least expensive timeshare out there?

It seems to be that based on the 50/50 opinions of which is better that they'd be about the same price.....I mean, most people really don't research it as detailed as Boca's example, right? Is that really why they are thousands more?

For most, their timeshare picks them. They don't pick their timeshare. Those who like Wyndham do so most likely because they went to a Wyndham sales presentation looking for a free gift and ended up buying a timeshare. Because they know it better, they like it better. Same is true for most WorldMark owners.

Some, like me, do the research first, then buy. I've compared most systems out there and I've settled in on Bluegreen, WorldMark and Wyndham being my favorite for different reasons.

As far as why Wyndhams sell for so much more less than WorldMarks, it's because Wyndham has had a lot longer time to devalue the ownerships. WorldMark is heading in the same downward direction. However, owners at WorldMark are fighting back and winning very small victories to stem the systematic devaluation of ownerships. They won't win in the end. But, they will die trying.

As to the question of which is the better system, that is entirely up to you. There is no right answer. If you like Wyndham better, you should buy it. It's a good system. If you buy resale, it's very cheap to get in. Have fun.

 

[massvacationer]

Might the low price of Wyndham Fairshare contracts just be caused by a greater amount of supply (a supply overhang)? Wyndham/Fairfield/Fairshare has built a great many units over many years, so there are a lot of owners who want/need to sell for various reasons (age, finances, death, life changes).

With so much supply and limited demand (bad economy etc) it is logical that prices fall and fall.

Perhaps there is not as much of a supply overhang with Worldmark?

BTW: This is a great thread!!!! Thanks

 

[bookworm]

Might the low price of Wyndham Fairshare contracts just be caused by a greater amount of supply (a supply overhang)? Wyndham/Fairfield/Fairshare has built a great many units over many years, so there are a lot of owners who want/need to sell for various reasons (age, finances, death, life changes).

With so much supply and limited demand (bad economy etc) it is logical that prices fall and fall.

Perhaps there is not as much of a supply overhang with Worldmark?

BTW: This is a great thread!!!! Thanks

I have often thought it was, at least in part, related to this. If there were greater competition for Wyndham weeks, the prices would certainly be bid up on ebay and other places. Now many points ownerships go without a bid. Hard to believe, since it wasn't that way just a few years ago. Worldmark certainly has fewer resales on ebay. I would think if they had as many as Wyndham the prices would come down considerably.

I would have to add to that I believe people are affected, too, but the constant changes Wyndham makes to their system which cost the owners more and more. As they become unhappy with Wyndham, they want out at any cost to themselves. For those who researched various timeshare systems, bought resale, and were aware that Wyndham has a pattern of changing the system, the moves they make are not such a complete surprise. I suppose for us it has been an easier pill to swallow compared to some who bought on sales promises.

 

[BocaBum99]

Might the low price of Wyndham Fairshare contracts just be caused by a greater amount of supply (a supply overhang)? Wyndham/Fairfield/Fairshare has built a great many units over many years, so there are a lot of owners who want/need to sell for various reasons (age, finances, death, life changes).

With so much supply and limited demand (bad economy etc) it is logical that prices fall and fall.

Perhaps there is not as much of a supply overhang with Worldmark?

BTW: This is a great thread!!!! Thanks

Yes, this is the main reason for the current situation. Wyndham has not done anything to ensure that there is an adequate balance of supply and demand on the resale market. That is a major part of the devaluation concept I mentioned above. They act as if their only responsibility is to create new resorts and sell them at full retail with no consideration for over supply in an area. And, Wyndham has been a sales machine. It may be reaching the end of that road. We shall see.

What also doesn't help is that Wyndham is so complicated that it scares some people away who might otherwise consider making a resale purchase.

Now, they have really tried to stick it to the rental agents who have made a good living renting Wyndham resorts. But, that is now under assault with the $99/129 guest fee. So, the demand for rental credits is decreasing since those rental guys have been squeezed.

So, the reality is that with all the oversupply, the complex program, the nickling and diming, the way too high maintenance fees, the dampening of demand from megarenters and the bad economy, Wyndhams are worthless.

 

[Jya-Ning]

As far as why Wyndhams sell for so much more less than WorldMarks, it's because Wyndham has had a lot longer time to devalue the ownerships. WorldMark is heading in the same downward direction. However, owners at WorldMark are fighting back and winning very small victories to stem the systematic devaluation of ownerships. They won't win in the end. But, they will die trying.

JMHO

I believe that is general believe.

I also believe that you buy a mini point base system is because you get better control to reserve the resorts within the system, you get more flexibility on reservation, make exchange, use the point or rent it out. The more choice and more flexibility, the more complex your learning will be. But deep down, most of the system are very simple if you don't try to beat yourselves on the cost/benefit analysis too hard. The developer will keep try to change it though.

Unless you want to buy now, you can always assume in few years, the WM will follow the same patten as Wyndham, and see if you want to purchase then instead of now.

In West coast, unless the economic become better, and Wyndham get active again and continue their current trend to develope into west, WM will be much better choice.

The market for Wyndham resale is a pure free market. It will be determined by how many people are selling it, how many are trying to buy it. And the market in eBay is overtake by a lot of companies that just doing pure fire sale like there is no tomorrow. If your growth rate is 10% in the developer sale, but your resale market buyer growth rate is the same, you will see market goes down even in a free market. Add that with a stress fire sale, you will see a very quick stress market. Than when owner try to sell, the only price they can easily see is the eBay completed list, it will just like bear's market, you will see more people want to sell suddenly, fewer people want to buy. With constant rule change, it will not help people to own more points, and actually make people less willing to own more.

At this moment, I think hotel occupancy rate is going down, but the MF will not go down, so you will see more discount from priceline ... You may want to wait a little bit later to really make up your mind on where to purchase.

Jya-Ning

 

[larry_WM]

JMHO

Unless you want to buy now, you can always assume in few years, the WM will follow the same patten as Wyndham, and see if you want to purchase then instead of now.

In West coast, unless the economic become better, and Wyndham get active again and continue their current trend to develope into west, WM will be much better choice.

Jya-Ning

Wyndham will be bankrupted very soon. What kind of business model is that? You bought a TS for 20K right after the cancellation date you hardly can sell it back for $1K. Remember, we are in the internet era, people are more and more informed. A lot of Timeshare foreclose now because people don't care much for bad credit

 

[Jya-Ning]

Wyndham will be bankrupted very soon.

If that occurs it maybe good for WM owners, and needs to see what happen (who take over what) to determine the Wyndham's result.

But I don't think so. I believe they have enough cash to pass through this time. And I believe they don't have a lot of risk except the loans they lender to new owners. And there are always people that will buy retail anyway.

Jya-Ning

 

[larry_WM]

If that occurs it maybe good for WM owners, and needs to see what happen (who take over what) to determine the Wyndham's result.

But I don't think so. I believe they have enough cash to pass through this time. And I believe they don't have a lot of risk except the loans they lender to new owners. And there are always people that will buy retail anyway.

Jya-Ning

How can you explain for $2.56 for it stock? They borrowed a lot of money ( around 3 billions) to acquire real estate at the peak, the TS buyers start to default. Who have the right mind to keep a 30K TS when it worth for nothing and the MF start to rise very fast

 

[Jya-Ning]

Who have the right mind to keep a 30K TS when it worth for nothing and the MF start to rise very fast

You assume those buyers know I am not quite sure they will buy if they know to look at eBay to start with. Sadly, It probably not going to hit them until 1 or 2 year down the road when they try to sell it and probably get few scammer:annoyed: . By that time, who knows what is the economic situation.

Jya-Ning

 

[bnoble]

What kind of business model is that? You bought a TS for 20K right after the cancellation date you hardly can sell it back for $1K.

Almost every developer on earth has the same model---just the specific numbers differ. Until and unless developers find that they are running out of ill-informed customers, they'll keep on doing what they are doing. Heck, look at all the people who find us here, and still have to ask "should I rescind?"

The reason this works is that timeshare purchases are rarely premeditated. Most of them happen entirely during a vacation, from the initial contact through the closed sale. Until that initial contact, most people wouldn't bother even typing "timeshare" into google, let alone actually reading this site or any other.

 

[larry_WM]

Almost every developer on earth has the same model---just the specific numbers differ. Until and unless developers find that they are running out of ill-informed customers, they'll keep on doing what they are doing. Heck, look at all the people who find us here, and still have to ask "should I rescind?"

The reason this works is that timeshare purchases are rarely premeditated. Most of them happen entirely during a vacation, from the initial contact through the closed sale. Until that initial contact, most people wouldn't bother even typing "timeshare" into google, let alone actually reading this site or any other.

This will be changed. There are more and more people informed about timeshare

 

[bnoble]

Maybe. But, I'll wager that your perception of how informed people are is colored by your experiences on these and other timeshare-oriented communities. On other travel boards---even on other Orlando travel boards---most people don't know anything beyond (a) you can get money for going on a tour and (b) you can sometimes get a good deal renting from an owner.

Of course, my bet is small potatoes. Every developer (every single one) is currently betting in a big big way that ignorance is still in plentiful supply.

 

[timeos2]

The vast majority know zip.

Maybe. But, I'll wager that your perception of how informed people are is colored by your experiences on these and other timeshare-oriented communities. On other travel boards---even on other Orlando travel boards---most people don't know anything beyond (a) you can get money for going on a tour and (b) you can sometimes get a good deal renting from an owner.

Of course, my bet is small potatoes. Every developer (every single one) is currently betting in a big big way that ignorance is still in plentiful supply.

It seems to be at 98% or more. The well has barely been tapped. The only positive is wallets are empty so even those tempted aren't biting thus hurting the sales model. That, combined with no credit, is finally hurting the developers and may force them into a more realistic and financially sane approach. Maybe not. We'll see.

 

[GeNioS]

I agree that ignorance is getting in shorter and shorter supply. I had this talk already on a Marriott thread, but I think that it's going to get harder and harder for timeshare developers to find people to buy their units.

Let's face it....if you're at timeshare presentation, could you not stand up, say one sentence loudly, and clear out the room of prospects? That's very thin ice to be standing on as a seller.

 

[GeNioS]

It seems to be at 98% or more. The well has barely been tapped. The only positive is wallets are empty so even those tempted aren't biting thus hurting the sales model. That, combined with no credit, is finally hurting the developers and may force them into a more realistic and financially sane approach. Maybe not. We'll see.

Agreed. If you're counting on ignorance, and the ignorant have empty wallets.....that's a long day.

 

[luckybunny]

I agree that ignorance is getting in shorter and shorter supply. I had this talk already on a Marriott thread, but I think that it's going to get harder and harder for timeshare developers to find people to buy their units.

Let's face it....if you're at timeshare presentation, could you not stand up, say one sentence loudly, and clear out the room of prospects? That's very thin ice to be standing on as a seller.

There are always people who will buy timeshare from developers, they think it is safer and better for some reasons. I know of at least two people who bought directly from developer and still will not consider buying resale even after I told them they can get the exact same unit for 1/4 of what they paid.

Developer's sales will be affected by the economic situation, not by people's decreased ignorance.

Don't forget, the timesahre salespeople are some of the most talented due to its high commission. Most people just don't know how to say no and they are always mislead by the fancy presentation!

 

[luckybunny]

Can I bring it back to the op's original topic?

If I am ONLY interested in Fort Lauderdale properties for week 51 & 52, from what I have read, Wyndham seems to be the way to go. I am assuming Worldmark owners don't have the same access or advance access to these properties.

Is the home resort advantage specific to the resort or the state? I guess I am thinking of Shell.

And lastly, if it is specific to the resort, which of the Wyndham is the best property?

 

[BocaBum99]

Can I bring it back to the op's original topic?

If I am ONLY interested in Fort Lauderdale properties for week 51 & 52, from what I have read, Wyndham seems to be the way to go. I am assuming Worldmark owners don't have the same access or advance access to these properties.

Is the home resort advantage specific to the resort or the state? I guess I am thinking of Shell.

And lastly, if it is specific to the resort, which of the Wyndham is the best property?

If you want to stay at Royal Vista, Palm Aire, Santa Barbara or Sea Garden which are in the Pompano and Deerfield Beach areas, then Wyndham is the way to go.

If you want to stay at the Marriott Beach Place Tower in Fort Lauderdale Beach or Marriott Ocean Pointe on Singer Island in Palm Beach Shores, then WorldMark is the way to go since both of those resorts are so easy to get (except for Winter) through II. In general, Florida Marriott's are all fairly easy to get via II using WorldMark.

Personally, I stay in either Beach Place Tower, Ocean Points or Royal Vista all the time. I think my favorite of the 3 is Royal Vista.

I also like the Bluegreen Resort in North Miami Beach called Solara Surfside. It is also Ocean front. Further south is the Hammocks at Marathon which is in the Florida Keys. All these resorts are great.