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Wyndham vs. Worldmark Resale Values

GeNioS

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Okay...as I'm still very new to Wyndham and know nearly nothing about Worldmark, please correct me and slap me around if I'm wrong.....

It's my understanding that 154,000 points is roughly equivalent to a 2br week at a Wyndham resort (give or take). Am I also to understand that at Worldmark resorts take around 10-12,000 points for a 2br week in that system? Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

It seems to me that, being in the west, I'd be well off to get into worldmark, especially now that I see they have one at Disneyland.

What I would like to know is why worldmark credits sell in the thousands, similar to Marriotts, while the Wyndham points go for nearly nothing? Am I missing something here?

Are the worldmark resorts that much nicer?
 

BocaBum99

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The general rule of thumb is that resale prices and maintenance fees are inversely related. The primary reason why WorldMark's hold their value better is that the Maintenance fees are lower.

Also, WorldMark is a much easier to use program. Wyndham nickles and dimes you to death. I think the net effect is Wyndham's going to zero value.
 

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Are points used at Worldmark in similar manner to Wyn FF?

If I buy 8000 points(for example) at Las Vegas Timeshare, is Wordmark program very similar to Wyndham program ie that the points could be used for another resort and that the only significant detriment is that I only have advance reservation period for if I want to book at the Las Vegas home resort?
Thanks, Jim
 

Steve

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If I buy 8000 points(for example) at Las Vegas Timeshare, is Wordmark program very similar to Wyndham program ie that the points could be used for another resort and that the only significant detriment is that I only have advance reservation period for if I want to book at the Las Vegas home resort?
Thanks, Jim
When you purchase WorldMark, you are purchasing credits which can be reserved at any resort in the system. You have no home resort.

In contrast, when you purchase Wyndham, you are purchasing points which do have a home resort, and a preference period for reservations at that resort.

Steve
 

timeos2

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Hard to beat Wyndham value

Plus the selection of resorts in Worldmark is far less than the Wyndham group. The purchase cost is higher from what I'm reading while we have not found the ongoing fees or "nuisance" fees to be a problem in the Wyndham system (YMMV). Over all we have found the value at resale - which as Boca points out is virtually nothing - to be with Wyndham. The money saved upfront, the quality and numerous locations (include some but not all Worldmarks) make the additional costs of even resale purchase of Worldmark a lesser overall value.

Both are good systems - learn all you can about both and pick the one you feel would represent the best value for your use.
 

BocaBum99

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It's easy to beat Wyndham Value with WorldMark because the costs are lower and the exchange value is immense. The biggest difference is due to the cost of the rental points.

Let's do a comparison. First, let's say that an owner get a FREE Wyndham for the cost of closing at $500. And, that owners friend buys a 6000 credit Wyndham account for $3000. The cost of the WorldMark ownership has a higher cost of capital since the upfront investment is $2500 more. Let's use 6% cost of capital. That would be an extra $150 per year for the WorldMark account vs. the "FREE" Wyndham account. Let's further assume that the annual fees are about equal for both ownerships which isn't far off. So, at the start of every year, the WorldMark account is in the hole by $150 vs. the Wyndham account.

Now, let's just rent points and credits to book reservations. It's easy to get Wyndham points at $4.25/1000 and WorldMark credits at $.0525/credit. Let's assume at this rental price, it includes the housekeeping fees and all of the transaction fees don't apply since you will be booking full weeks and not changing your mind a lot (which heavily is unfavorable to Wyndham since they limit the number of transactions you can do for free).

A low end 2br unit in WorldMark is 10000 credits. In Wyndham is 154000 points. A moderate 2br is 15000 WorldMark and 203000 Wyndham. And, it goes up from there.

So, for the first vacation, WorldMark is 10000 *.0525 + $150 = $675. For Wyndham, it's 4.25 * 154 = $654.50. About the same. But, that's where the equality ends. For this point on, WorldMark dominates.

If you want to take 2 vacations, the costs are $525 vs. $654.50 since you only have to amortize the cost of capital once per year.

In addition, WorldMark can trade with virtually unlimited trading power in both RCI and II. Wyndham has terrible trading power except for trading back into Wyndham. And, with WorldMark, you have discount stays less than 60-days from check in for 4000 credits. Imagine 4000 credits * 5.25 = $210 plus the exchange fee. You can't do that in Wyndham. In fact, you must choose between RCI or II. You can't trade in both. I've stay at Disney Old Key West, Saratoga Springs, Four Seasons Troon, Hyatt Coconut Plantation and dozens of Marriott's using II Flexchange. Wyndham owners just don't know what they are missing with the WorldMark interface to II.

Even doing a direct trade with Wyndham is extremely expensive because after your first free guest certificate, it's $99 per direct trade whereas WorldMark is free.

In Wyndham, you can only use your points in one year. In WorldMark, you get 2 years. And, you can change you mind every day of the year with no extra fees. No so, with Wyndham. It's one and done or you pay transaction fees of $25 or more.

I own both and I like both. But, if I could only own one, WorldMark far surpasses Wyndham in terms of value, flexibility and Universal trading capabilities.

Not only that, but transferring a WorldMark is trivial and costs $150. For Wyndham, you have estoppel fees, closing company fees and resort transfer fees. And, depending on the resort, it could take 6-8 months vs. 3 weeks for WorldMark.

One more thing. WorldMark has standardized its broadband internet on TelcoNet. It runs thorugh the power lines. Wyndham has chosen Wayport. For those of you who use wireless with wayport, you know that it is highly unreliable and often times it barely works even if you get a Wayport bridge and booster from the front desk. Wireless just isn't very reliable. Telconet ROCKs. It's fast in most locations, you can easily hook up a vonage router for telephone calls. And, it's ethernet which is far more reliable than wireless in terms of support and ease of use. This may not be important to many, but it's something I personally need.
 
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kkan

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Telconet ROCKs. It's fast in most locations, you can easily hook up a vonage router for telephone calls. And, it's ethernet which is far more reliable than wireless in terms of support and ease of use. This may not be important to many, but it's something I personally need.
Just out of curiosity, have you done any internet speed tests using Telkonet?
 

bnoble

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A couple thoughts.

On balance, I think WorldMark is, overall, the stronger system for many of the reasons Boca mentions. This is reflected in the resale costs. But, the differences are not so large, and so geography plays a role. Someone in the western US would find better internal selection of "drive-to" resorts with WorldMark. Someone in the eastern US will generally find better internal selection of "drive-to" resorts with Wyndham.

For example, the only drive-to destinations in WorldMark for me are Galena, IL (whoop-de-doo); Lake of the Ozarks; and if you stretch, Branson and Grand Lake. From Wyndham, Wisconsin Dells, Smoky Mountains, Nashville, Alexandria VA, and the Poconos (whoop-de-do) are all an easy day's drive, plus Williamsburg, Branson, Atlantic City, and the Berkshires if you stretch. So, for me, the better value at the margins of WorldMark is balanced by the better drive-to locations in Wyndham.

From Salt Lake City, you might find that WorldMark has a stronger portfolio of resorts that interest you---that's my take on it.

There were two minor points that I think Boca may have oversold:
with WorldMark, you have discount stays less than 60-days from check in for 4000 credits. Imagine 4000 credits * 5.25 = $210 plus the exchange fee. You can't do that in Wyndham.
I'm not sure if Boca is speaking to external exchange, or internal bookings. For external exchange, Wyndham in II would work exactly the same way with a 28K blue studio week (@ $4.25/K, this is $120+exchange fee). In RCI, it is similar, but the 60-day period is more like 45 or, in some cases, 14 days, depending on destination.

In Wyndham, you can only use your points in one year.
You can place Wyndham points into the "credit pool", and extend their life by as much as two extra years. You can also borrow them for 90-day bookings, or (again by pooling them) for bookings farther in advance of occupancy.

The two systems are more similar than they are different. If I were choosing between them, I would choose based on nearby resort choices---in your case, I think that suggests a WorldMark purchase, but only you can make that decision.

Edited to add: I've had better luck overall with wireless at various resorts, though WayPort is not my favored provider. For the most part, my non-office use is 100% wireless, both at home and on the road. Now that ATT has acquired WayPort, I'm expecting the customer service aspects to improve.
 

BocaBum99

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A couple thoughts.

On balance, I think WorldMark is, overall, the stronger system for many of the reasons Boca mentions. This is reflected in the resale costs. But, the differences are not so large, and so geography plays a role. Someone in the western US would find better internal selection of "drive-to" resorts with WorldMark. Someone in the eastern US will generally find better internal selection of "drive-to" resorts with Wyndham.

For example, the only drive-to destinations in WorldMark for me are Galena, IL (whoop-de-doo); Lake of the Ozarks; and if you stretch, Branson and Grand Lake. From Wyndham, Wisconsin Dells, Smoky Mountains, Nashville, Alexandria VA, and the Poconos (whoop-de-do) are all an easy day's drive, plus Williamsburg, Branson, Atlantic City, and the Berkshires if you stretch. So, for me, the better value at the margins of WorldMark is balanced by the better drive-to locations in Wyndham.

From Salt Lake City, you might find that WorldMark has a stronger portfolio of resorts that interest you---that's my take on it.

There were two minor points that I think Boca may have oversold:

I'm not sure if Boca is speaking to external exchange, or internal bookings. For external exchange, Wyndham in II would work exactly the same way with a 28K blue studio week (@ $4.25/K, this is $120+exchange fee). In RCI, it is similar, but the 60-day period is more like 45 or, in some cases, 14 days, depending on destination.


You can place Wyndham points into the "credit pool", and extend their life by as much as two extra years. You can also borrow them for 90-day bookings, or (again by pooling them) for bookings farther in advance of occupancy.

The two systems are more similar than they are different. If I were choosing between them, I would choose based on nearby resort choices---in your case, I think that suggests a WorldMark purchase, but only you can make that decision.

Edited to add: I've had better luck overall with wireless at various resorts, though WayPort is not my favored provider. For the most part, my non-office use is 100% wireless, both at home and on the road. Now that ATT has acquired WayPort, I'm expecting the customer service aspects to improve.
I think the above are good clarifications and I agree with the added detail. But, if it were a choice between east coast and west coast, I'd pick Bluegreen for East Coast and WorldMark for West Coast. That said, I own all three in a big way.

Also, the pickings for RCI using 28k deposits are much more limited than for II in Flexchange. If anything, RCI is good for 14-days or less. Not, 60-days like in II. And, Flexchange is very bountiful.
 

bnoble

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Partly, the slim RCI pickings may be due to the need to use a Wyndham-dedicated call center that doesn't open until 9AMish, rather than the web site. By the time you can call, all the "good stuff" is gone.

If you own an el-cheapo fixed week, you can get around this by putting the unit you want on hold in the wee hours with the fixed week, and then calling to switch it to a 28K week when the Wyn/RCI call center opens. I bought an "extra" week for this purpose, but that resort turned out to be a strong trader in both RCI and II, so I tend to use it for other things these days.
 

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I agree with what's been said above about choosing due to location. If I were on the West Coast, I would probably buy Worldmark. One thing I would comment on however is resort quality. I haven't stayed in Worldmark resorts but have read here that many of the Wyndham resorts tend to be a bit nicer than the Worldmark resorts. I can't say personally, but for me that would be a factor.

Also, there are many on this board, including myself, who have had good success with 28K or 70K RCI exchanges when putting an ongoing search in a year+ in advance and/or choosing a location that has strong inventory. For example, we wanted Massanutten for this past summer. This is high time, but there was quite a bit of inventory. I got a 2 bedroom gold crown for 28K which cost me about $275 including exchange fee a year in advance. If I have read correctly, Worldmark could not get me one at that cost if I'm planning more than 2 months out.

I think there are pluses and minuses to each. If you know what they are, you will make a great decision based upon your circumstances. The entry cost is really a very small factor in this if you are planning on owning for several years. The ongoing costs and ease of use are much more important.

One question I would raise for the Worldmark experts. Can you book 3 or 4 night stays in prime season a year in advance? Or 2+ night stays in shoulder season? This is an important feature that Wyndham offers and our family uses a great deal. Worldmark may have this too, I don't know. If we had to wait until a few months out to book shorter stays in prime time, all availability would be gone.
 
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mshatty

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I agree with what's been said above about choosing due to location. If I were on the West Coast, I would probably buy Worldmark. One thing I would comment on however is resort quality. I haven't stayed in Worldmark resorts but have read here that many of the Wyndham resorts tend to be a bit nicer than the Worldmark resorts. I can't say personally, but for me that would be a factor.

Also, there are many on this board, including myself, who have had good success with 28K or 70K RCI exchanges when putting an ongoing search in a year+ in advance and/or choosing a location that has strong inventory. For example, we wanted Massanutten for this past summer. This is high time, but there was quite a bit of inventory. I got a 2 bedroom gold crown for 28K which cost me about $275 including exchange fee a year in advance. If I have read correctly, Worldmark could not get me one at that cost if I'm planning more than 2 months out.

I think there are pluses and minuses to each. If you know what they are, you will make a great decision based upon your circumstances. The entry cost is really a very small factor in this if you are planning on owning for several years. The ongoing costs and ease of use are much more important.

One question I would raise for the Worldmark experts. Can you book 3 or 4 night stays in prime season a year in advance? Or 2+ night stays in shoulder season? This is an important feature that Wyndham offers and our family uses a great deal. Worldmark may have this too, I don't know. If we had to wait until a few months out to book shorter stays in prime time, all availability would be gone.[/QUOTE]


That is the one area I believe Wyndham has an advantage over Worldmark. With Worldmark, from 90 days to 13 month before check in you have to book at least 7 nights for any red season. For a white or blue season, you can reserve less than 7 nights. For red season, you can book the 7 nights at more than one resort; but the 7 nights have to be consecutive.

To do that, WM owners may book a couple of days at the end or beginning of the 7 night period at a resort with very low points/small unit size to be able to book the 4 or 5 days at the resort they want. The couple of days can be used by a guest or just "thrown away."

The other problem with WM when booking very popular resorts at very popular times is that their 13 month booking is not a "hard" 13 months. WM owners can start booking ahead of 13 months up to a month ahead if they have enough points to book the whole month. What I have found for the "normal" WM owner is that the prime units at prime resorts, especially those with a small number of total units, are gone prior to the 13 month booking window.

With Wyndham, the 13 month booking window is "hard", no jumping the line like WM owners can do.
 

bnoble

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If I have read correctly, Worldmark could not get me one at that cost if I'm planning more than 2 months out.
I think WorldMark might have the same ability to "trade up" as Wyndham does. In II, you can't enter an ongoing search for a unit larger than you are committing---that should be true for eather Wyndham or WorldMark in that exchange. RCI has no such restriction, and I would assume WorldMark owners can deposit small and request big, just as Wyndham owners can.
 

bookworm

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I think WorldMark might have the same ability to "trade up" as Wyndham does. In II, you can't enter an ongoing search for a unit larger than you are committing---that should be true for eather Wyndham or WorldMark in that exchange. RCI has no such restriction, and I would assume WorldMark owners can deposit small and request big, just as Wyndham owners can.
Good point. II is definitely more size conscious. So can a Worldmark owner deposit 4000K points at a year out with RCI and request a 2 bedroom unit somewhere in prime time? If so, that would be a real plus.
 
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bookworm

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To do that, WM owners may book a couple of days at the end or beginning of the 7 night period at a resort with very low points/small unit size to be able to book the 4 or 5 days at the resort they want. The couple of days can be used by a guest or just "thrown away."

The other problem with WM when booking very popular resorts at very popular times is that their 13 month booking is not a "hard" 13 months. WM owners can start booking ahead of 13 months up to a month ahead if they have enough points to book the whole month. What I have found for the "normal" WM owner is that the prime units at prime resorts, especially those with a small number of total units, are gone prior to the 13 month booking window.

With Wyndham, the 13 month booking window is "hard", no jumping the line like WM owners can do.
Thanks for clarifying this. Not a great feature for Worldmark. I am assuming then you might also have to buy an extra housekeeping token to clean for those "throw away" days?
 

BocaBum99

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Good point. II is definitely more size conscious. So can a Worldmark owner deposit 4000K points at a year out with RCI and request a 2 bedroom unit somewhere in prime time?
Yes, in WorldMark, you can get almost anything available of any size that doesn't have a specific preference period. The online search feature specifies unit size used for trade. Just always select 3br and you can see all available inventory. When you exchange for something, WorldMark only charges you for the unit size you got.

For RCI, you just call up RCI and you can get just about anything available with search first. Yes, that's right. Using WorldMark, you can search first and confirm and deposit points AFTER you find what you want.
 

BocaBum99

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I think WorldMark might have the same ability to "trade up" as Wyndham does. In II, you can't enter an ongoing search for a unit larger than you are committing---that should be true for eather Wyndham or WorldMark in that exchange. RCI has no such restriction, and I would assume WorldMark owners can deposit small and request big, just as Wyndham owners can.
In WorldMark, you do NOT need to deposit first. In BOTH, RCI and II, you can REQUEST first and confirm later. After you get what you want, credits are deducted from your account.

No need for visible vs. non-visible vs. using one of your other traders to work around the system.
 

BocaBum99

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I agree with what's been said above about choosing due to location. If I were on the West Coast, I would probably buy Worldmark. One thing I would comment on however is resort quality. I haven't stayed in Worldmark resorts but have read here that many of the Wyndham resorts tend to be a bit nicer than the Worldmark resorts. I can't say personally, but for me that would be a factor.
I've stayed in over a dozen of both Wyndham and WorldMark resorts. Resort quality does not matter much to me. Location is far more important. I would say that Wyndham's are slightly better in quality on average. But, I think the WorldMark has incredible destinations.

I would say that WorldMark and Wyndham are in the same "class" of timeshare with Wyndham being slightly better. They are not dives. And, they are NOT hotel brand quality. Marriott's, Westins, Starwoods, etc. are much higher quality than either Wyndham or WorldMark in general.
 
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BocaBum99

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One question I would raise for the Worldmark experts. Can you book 3 or 4 night stays in prime season a year in advance? Or 2+ night stays in shoulder season? This is an important feature that Wyndham offers and our family uses a great deal. Worldmark may have this too, I don't know. If we had to wait until a few months out to book shorter stays in prime time, all availability would be gone.
It is true that in WorldMark you cannot book less than a week at a resort as a standalone reservation unless the days are "stranded." That is a feature of Wyndham that isn't available in WorldMark.

However, that is mitigated by two things.

1) You can book any combinations of resorts in a grouped reservation as long as it adds up to 7 or more days up to 13-months in advance of check in. For instance, you can get 2-nights in Seattle Camlin, then 5-nights at Victoria. Or, you can do 4-nights in Whistler, 5-nights in Canmore, 6-nights in West Yellowstone all as the same itinerary. In Wyndham, you can only do 3 or 4 night stays. It is a nice feature, but it is completely neutralized if the total stay is 7-days or longer.

2) If there are only 3-nights left in a resort in a given unit type, an owner can book it at any time. So, if there were 3 nights available today in a 1 bedroom unit at WorldMark San Francisco for July 3-5, 2009 because July 2 and July 6 are full, then the owner can book it today.

Moreover, what drives me crazy about Wyndham is if I want a 10-day reservation, I need to book 2 units. It's rigid at 3-, 4-, 7- nights. If you like, you can book a WorldMark unit for an entire month and stay in the same unit without having to call Wyndham to string together reservations and get charged a reservation transaction fee. They have limitations in the system and they charge owners to fix them by calling. That is the maddening nickle and diming I loathe in Wyndham.
 
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BocaBum99

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Thanks for clarifying this. Not a great feature for Worldmark. I am assuming then you might also have to buy an extra housekeeping token to clean for those "throw away" days?
Not if you have a No Housekeeping Account. The concept of throwaway days makes it possible to get prime weeks in ANY WorldMark resorts. You can't guarantee that in Wyndham. If you don't own a hot resort, you can't get the good stuff in Wyndham since you don't have ARP at that resort. That is a HUGE disadvantage.
 

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Wyndham's VIP program is better than WorldMarks. If you are a VIP, there are nice features in Wyndham that are very nice. No housekeeping and discount point values less than 60-days and unit upgrades are fantastic. It's just that the cost to get those features aren't generally worth the price required to get them.
 
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BocaBum99

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Also, there are many on this board, including myself, who have had good success with 28K or 70K RCI exchanges when putting an ongoing search in a year+ in advance and/or choosing a location that has strong inventory. For example, we wanted Massanutten for this past summer. This is high time, but there was quite a bit of inventory. I got a 2 bedroom gold crown for 28K which cost me about $275 including exchange fee a year in advance. If I have read correctly, Worldmark could not get me one at that cost if I'm planning more than 2 months out.
I'm sure that many owners get great exchanges with 28k or 70k deposits. What I am saying is that I own lots of fixed weeks and points ownerships and what I do is use all of the exchange companies and make the deposits or use the cheapest and/or easiest system available to get anything exchangable in any system.

I use WorldMark to access most of II in either Flexchange or as a Universal trader. I use my Marriott to get Marriott Preference.

For RCI, I use cheap fixed weeks to get the best deal for most exchanges. Either a tiger trader for the hard to get locations or a cheap Bluegreen deposit for less than 45-days. Or, RCI Points. I use WorldMark when all else fails.

The only thing I use Wyndham points for in exchange are for trading back into Wyndham resorts. In virtually all other scenarios, there is a better trader (i.e. cheaper) in RCI than Wyndham.
 

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Just out of curiosity, have you done any internet speed tests using Telkonet?
No, but I've tested download speeds for large files. It's very comparable to Cable modem service. Some locations have download speeds in the 300-500 kbps rate. Some are low at around 50 kbps like in Estes Park in the Rocky Mountains. I think it's due to the internet service they have at that resort in the mountains.
 

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Thanks for clarifying this. Not a great feature for Worldmark. I am assuming then you might also have to buy an extra housekeeping token to clean for those "throw away" days?
That's a possibility because each part of the "group" reservation has to have a HK token. If you run out, you pay for the HK token.
 

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Also, there are many on this board, including myself, who have had good success with 28K or 70K RCI exchanges when putting an ongoing search in a year+ in advance and/or choosing a location that has strong inventory. For example, we wanted Massanutten for this past summer. This is high time, but there was quite a bit of inventory. I got a 2 bedroom gold crown for 28K which cost me about $275 including exchange fee a year in advance. If I have read correctly, Worldmark could not get me one at that cost if I'm planning more than 2 months out.
Not true. WM can also get you prime weeks at much discounted prices. Up to about a month ago, in 6 years of WM ownership, I had been to Four Seasons, Westin, Marriott, DVC, and other prime locations, and had never paid full price for my II exchanges. (I don't use RCI.) A month ago, I got a second Hawaiian Westin (Maui) week to go with my first week (Kauai) - both are 2BRs - and paid full price for the second one. :banana: Actuallly, I was more than 6 months away and if I had waited, I could have gotten it at discounted price too. But I am happy. :D

One question I would raise for the Worldmark experts. Can you book 3 or 4 night stays in prime season a year in advance? Or 2+ night stays in shoulder season? This is an important feature that Wyndham offers and our family uses a great deal. Worldmark may have this too, I don't know. If we had to wait until a few months out to book shorter stays in prime time, all availability would be gone.
I, and a few other WM owners, routinely book 1-5 night stays in prime season, up to 13 months in advance. You just need to watch for stand-alone days. Because WM owners can start their vacations on any day of the week, and can book any number of days more than 7 days in red season (e.g., 8, 9, 10...days), there are lots of stranded days in the system up to 13 months in advance, that you can book.
 
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