Wyndham Privileges: new Wyndham VIP Levels starting late 2020 [Merged]

[erniecrews]

You can book "Presidential" units within 10 months, not "Presidential Reserve" units. Several resorts that have true PR units hold 75% of the PR units for Presidential Reserve owners only to use until 30 days prior the the reservations date, at which point they are opened up to all members. Unless you are a Presidential Reserve owner, the PR inventory being held will not even show as available - assuming, of course, that the website is operating correctly, which we know to be a crap shoot.

Wes

Where do you think the other 25% goes?

 

[Braindead]

Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.

Sorry Eric, I had that idea in 2017

 

[Braindead]

Even 2016

 

[wjappraise]

Where do you think the other 25% goes?

It’s available at ten months. Or 13 months for owners at that resort.

 

[ecwinch]

View attachment 11951 View attachment 11952
Sorry Eric, I had that idea in 2017

Darn..... well that means everyone can blame you when it comes to pass.

 

[Jan M.]

Thanks, Dominic.

I trust your intent, and in reality I agree with you in most of your posts. Specifically, there is great value in NEVER buying a timeshare and always renting from an existing owner. And you are correct that costs are better in the far majority of cases. Just look at RedWeek.com to see a black-and-white proof of what Dominic is stating. The cost for a non-VIP owner to reserve a two bedroom deluxe unit at Bonnet Creek over the summertime is 224,000 points. Assuming a cost of $6.50 per thousand points, the cost would be $1456, plus whatever reservation transaction cost and housekeeping costs are added to a non-VIP owner. Of the FORTY 2 bedroom units of 7 days at Bonnet Creek listed for sale in the next two months (end of July), only NINE of them are listed for over $1456. That means THIRTY ONE units are listed for sale at a cheaper cost than a non-VIP can book the room.

That is staggering. . .

Then, to add insult to injury, some of us list that same room here for $800, and have TUG members refuse to pay that much, and they want it for less than $100 a night. . . and some TUG members will accommodate that ridiculous price point. Dominic is on to something.

Wes

Since Eric is laying claims to things he's said I will add my own claim. I predicted that when the big bad megarenters were gone that more owners would jump in to fill the void. Which has absolutely come to pass. From what I see on a variety of different sites the amount of renting has grown phenomenally in the absence of the few megarenters who are "no longer owners". Much, much more than I would ever have guessed. I confess to finding myself stunned at what Wes posted. Wes pointed out Redweek has 40 listings for the end of July in a two bedroom unit. Just think about how many other sites we know of that people rent through like Extra Holidays, Craigslist, eBay, Facebook, TUG, etc.

The other part of my prediction was that we would see many of these new to renting owners making the rookie mistake of pricing their rentals far too low. Which of course is normal. But I expected after an initial learning curve that would change. It doesn't look like it has. Either that or the number of owners getting into renting is continuing to grow at an alarming rate. I also predicted that Wyndham wouldn't be happy with an influx in the far too cheap rental market that undercut Extra Holidays prices. Conventional wisdom says you don't poke the bear. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Wyndham is going to take measures to protect Extra Holdiays. They've invested a lot of time and money in developing, promoting and running it in addition to the revenue it brings them.

Clearwater 4th of July 2 years back. Would of cost me 200,000 points for a 1 bedroom if a room was available to me (which it was not). In the 60 day discount window booked a 1 bedroom presidential reserve through a VIP for $600. To book this with 200,000 of my own points at a monthly maintenance cost of $68 or $820 yearly on 154,000 points or about $1060 (.0053 cents x 200,000 points) yearly maintenance on 200,000 points at Grand Desert.
Another example booked within 60 day discount window at Midtown 45, Thurs - Sunday 3 nights 1 bedroom deluxe. $675 cost from VIP. This room would have been 234,000 points , my cost on maintenace fees for these points is .0053 x 234,000 = $1240

From what Dominic posted it appears he found owners or point managers who basically just covered the maintenance fees on the points needed for those rentals. I'm not seeing much profit, if any at all, in those prices even for platinum VIP owners. I'm curious if this is still happening as much anymore. I thought with the change to the 15 day cancellation window and the addition of the points protection program there would be fewer owners renting at break even or not much above it prices.

 

[dgalati]

Since Eric is laying claims to things he's said I will add my own claim. I predicted that when the big bad megarenters were gone that more owners would jump in to fill the void. Which has absolutely come to pass. From what I see on a variety of different sites the amount of renting has grown phenomenally in the absence of the few megarenters who are "no longer owners". Much, much more than I would ever have guessed. I confess to finding myself stunned at what Wes posted. Wes pointed out Redweek has 40 listings for the end of July in a two bedroom unit. Just think about how many other sites we know of that people rent through like Extra Holidays, Craigslist, eBay, Facebook, TUG, etc.

The other part of my prediction was that we would see many of these new to renting owners making the rookie mistake of pricing their rentals far too low. Which of course is normal. But I expected after an initial learning curve that would change. It doesn't look like it has. Either that or the number of owners getting into renting is continuing to grow at an alarming rate. I also predicted that Wyndham wouldn't be happy with an influx in the far too cheap rental market that undercut Extra Holidays prices. Conventional wisdom says you don't poke the bear. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Wyndham is going to take measures to protect Extra Holdiays. They've invested a lot of time and money in developing, promoting and running it in addition to the revenue it brings them.



From what Dominic posted it appears he found owners or point managers who basically just covered the maintenance fees on the points needed for those rentals. I'm not seeing much profit, if any at all, in those prices even for platinum VIP owners. I'm curious if this is still happening as much anymore. I thought with the change to the 15 day cancellation window and the addition of the points protection program there would be fewer owners renting at break even or not much above it prices.

Reality is some VIP owners are not traveling or using their points because of health issues or changes in their life that prevent them to do so. Most of owners that can not travel and use their points are just happy to cover maintenance fees because they just cant afford to pay them. Consider a non VIP's disadvantage to renting compared to a VIP in the 60 discount window. For a Non VIP to rent against a VIP he would have to rent for 1/2 his cost if VIP was just covering his costs. You would be surprised how many owners still don't know about Ovations and their options to get out from under the financial burden of the maintenance fees.

 

[55plus]

Reality is some VIP owners are not traveling or using their points because of health issues or changes in their life that prevent them to do so. Most of owners that can not travel and use their points are just happy to cover maintenance fees because they just cant afford to pay them. Consider a non VIP's disadvantage to renting compared to a VIP in the 60 discount window. For a Non VIP to rent against a VIP he would have to rent for 1/2 his cost if VIP was just covering his costs. You would be surprised how many owners still don't know about Ovations and their options to get out from under the financial burden of the maintenance fees.

In reality a VIP PLATINUM owner can rent for 1/4 cost of non VIP owners to break even. Factor in half points advantage and at half points, points double so a VIP PLATINUM owner ends up with twice the points. Factoring that, they end up paying half the cost of maintenance fees when they double their points. The profit margins is even greater than it looks on the surface. Now, if a VIP PLATINUM owner rents for what a non VIP owner rents to just cover their costs, the VIP PLATINUM owner realizes a 100% profit.

 

[dgalati]

This is great info that I was not aware of. Helps me understand how some are able to discount rentals. Either way its cheaper then paying maintenance fees if points are not going to be used.

 

[wjappraise]

In reality a VIP PLATINUM owner can rent for 1/4 cost of non VIP owners to break even

That would be a math Fail. 1/4 cost claim is either a typo or just wrong. With a 50% point discount and the guest fee and the cost of listing on Redweek and PayPal fee, the break even point is more like 60-65% not 25%.

In the old cancel, rebook and upgrade days - yes. Now - no.

Wes

 

[55plus]

That would be a math Fail. 1/4 cost claim is either a typo or just wrong. With a 50% point discount and the guest fee and the cost of listing on Redweek and PayPal fee, the break even point is more like 60-65% not 25%.
In the old cancel, rebook and upgrade days - yes. Now - no.

Wes

Remove the variables you added and I stand by my math. Double the points and cut maintenance fees in half (because the points double) and forget the free guest certificates there is 1/4 difference. Do the math. Example for same rental: non VIP 100000 points x $6 per 1000 = $600; VIP PLATINUM (within 60 day window) 50000 points x $3 per 1000 = $150.

 

[CO skier]

Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.

That is an interesting point.

When a VIP discounted reservation is used for a rental, Wyndham is essentially subsidizing competitors to Wyndham's Extra Holidays rental arm and non-VIPs who are trying to rent full points reservations.

 

[55plus]

This is great info that I was not aware of. Helps me understand how some are able to discount rentals. Either way its cheaper then paying maintenance fees if points are not going to be used.

Points are like currency, you have to factor either cost of points to be used or money. Or did I misunderstand the question?

 

[wjappraise]

Remove the variables you added and I stand by my math. Double the points and cut maintenance fees in half (because the points double) and forget the free guest certificates there is 1/4 difference. Do the math. Example for same rental: non VIP 100000 points x $6 per 1000 = $600; VIP PLATINUM (within 60 day window) 50000 points x $3 per 1000 = $150.

Sorry. I’m a math major. You’re way off!

Your error is that you have cut the point cost by 50% and then cut the maintenance fee by 50%. This maintenance fee does NOT change.

I’m sorry to be harsh, but your math fail is misleading to others. So it needs to be exposed.

Wes.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Remove the variables you added and I stand by my math. Double the points and cut maintenance fees in half (because the points double) and forget the free guest certificates there is 1/4 difference. Do the math. Example for same rental: non VIP 100000 points x $6 per 1000 = $600; VIP PLATINUM (within 60 day window) 50000 points x $3 per 1000 = $150.

I kinda see what you're saying, but you really cannot cut the MFs in half because "the points double" because the reality is the VIPP owner still pays the actual MF rate on half the points. I get what you're saying in that in theory if a VIPP can book 100% of their vacations within the discount window, then 1MM points becomes 2MM points when compared to a normal non-VIP owner.

Still, let's do the math for dgalati's actual example, and include an automatic upgrade:

Another example booked within 60 day discount window at Midtown 45, Thurs - Sunday 3 nights 1 bedroom deluxe. $675 cost from VIP. This room would have been 234,000 points , my cost on maintenace fees for these points is .0053 x 234,000 = $1240

If I were to book a studio at Midtown 45 for July 11-14 right now, it's 91000 points for three nights. While there isn't currently an automatic upgrade available to a 1 bedroom deluxe, let's assume for a moment that there was. @dgalati, this means I could book you a 1 bedroom deluxe for three nights for 91000 points using a free instant upgrade. My average MFs on my points is about $4.50/1000 points right now, so if I actually charged you based upon my discounted points:

91*5.00=$455.00

You were charged $675.00. If we assume the VIP owner actually booked the 1 bedroom deluxe without an upgrade, what cost you 234000 points would have cost a VIPP owner 117000 points:

117*5.00=$585.00

This example also demonstrates Jan's point above about VIP owners possibly renting for too little when compared to actual market demand and simply covering MFs.

I would typically charge $6-10/1000 points depending on market demand. If I were to use the actual 91000 points:

91*7=$637.00
91*8=$728.00
91*9=$819.00
91*10=$910.00

 

[chapjim]

Remove the variables you added and I stand by my math. Double the points and cut maintenance fees in half (because the points double) and forget the free guest certificates there is 1/4 difference. Do the math. Example for same rental: non VIP 100000 points x $6 per 1000 = $600; VIP PLATINUM (within 60 day window) 50000 points x $3 per 1000 = $150.

I'm trying to figure out how to cut my $6/1,000 maintenance fee to $3/1,000. Show me how to do that and I'll buy a few million more points and retire!

 

[55plus]

I'm trying to figure out how to cut my $6/1,000 maintenance fee to $3/1,000. Show me how to do that and I'll buy a few million more points and retire!

My bad, it should be $3 x 500 points = $150. Half points at half the cost of maintenance fees.

 

[wjappraise]

My bad, it should be $3 x 500 points = $150. Half points at half the cost of maintenance fees.

Wrong! Stop posting until you’ve had more coffee. It’s just getting worse.

Wes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[55plus]

I'm trying to figure out how to cut my $6/1,000 maintenance fee to $3/1,000. Show me how to do that and I'll buy a few million more points and retire!

Big picture. Forget free or costs for guest certificates. Forget commissions or PayPal fees. Forget free upgrades even though that has value. Bottom line: 100000 points x $6 = $600 v. 50000 points x $3 = $150. This is fact, not theory. $150 is 1/4 of $600. How is this incorrect?

 

[Braindead]

Big picture. Forget free or costs for guest certificates. Forget commissions or PayPal fees. Forget free upgrades even though that has value. Bottom line: 100000 points x $6

Your backwards, your turning 500k points into 1mil with the discount.
The grosss MFs would be same for 500k points turned into 1mil
1mil would be at half rate of the 500k = the same gross MFs for both

 

[CO skier]

Big picture. Forget free or costs for guest certificates. Forget commissions or PayPal fees. Forget free upgrades even though that has value. Bottom line: 100000 points x $6 = $600 v. 50000 points x $3 = $150. This is fact, not theory. $150 is 1/4 of $600. How is this incorrect?

It is incorrect because you are applying the 50% discount twice at the same time.

The reservation may be calculated either (100,000 points x 50%) x $6/point =$300 for the reservation OR 100,000 points x ($6/point x 50%) = $300 for the reservations.

Do you see how the 50% discount is correctly applied only once in each of the calculations?

 

[wjappraise]

Big picture. Forget free or costs for guest certificates. Forget commissions or PayPal fees. Forget free upgrades even though that has value. Bottom line: 100000 points x $6 = $600 v. 50000 points x $3 = $150. This is fact, not theory. $150 is 1/4 of $600. How is this incorrect?

Oh my. Math is escaping you.

VIP Platinum benefits result in 50% discounts on the POINTS. Not on the Maintenance fees. So the 100,000 points rack rate reservation is discounted to 50,000 points. The MF rate is constant. So in your example this would be $6 per thousand. Cost monetized would be $300. Exactly half of $600. Not 1/4.

Now add guest fees and all other fees to arrive at your true inventory cost and you will find that the profit margin is thin.

Wes.

 

[ecwinch]

I’m with everyone else... your double dipping with the $3 calculation.

 

[55plus]

Oh my. Math is escaping you.

VIP Platinum benefits result in 50% discounts on the POINTS. Not on the Maintenance fees. So the 100,000 points rack rate reservation is discounted to 50,000 points. The MF rate is constant. So in your example this would be $6 per thousand. Cost monetized would be $300. Exactly half of $600. Not 1/4.

Now add guest fees and all other fees to arrive at your true inventory cost and you will find that the profit margin is thin.

Wes.

In theory it's 1/4 not half. If you use ALL your points within 60 days window they are at half points. You double your points which means your maintenance fee costs are spread across twice as many points you own. It's simple math.

 

[Braindead]

I’m just wondering how many rental reservations are made less than 60 days out?
You guys are making it feel like all are, making owning look ridiculous. I know some of you are thinking that anyway.
I don’t think most owners make that many reservations at the discount window especially with kids & larger units

I just hope Eric & I are on the right path with no upgrades & or discounts on GCs.
If that’s the only benefit we lose with Privileges I’ll be a happy camper!!
Maybe we’ll get other benefits to help owners using for personal use only!!