Wyndham Privileges: new Wyndham VIP Levels starting late 2020 [Merged]

[dgalati]

[

Exactly. This premise that there is an unlimited supply of VIP owners who are willing to rent out their VIP discount and throw free upgrades into the deal as a bonus is simplistic at best. I am sure there are some who are willing to do that from time to time. But to suggest that it is simple and easy to do is just misleading people. It is an opportunistic strategy that works in some situations, but is somewhat like the claims made by Wyndham salespeople. It ignores all the people out there who have to put in for vacation well in advance, book airfares, might need more than 1 unit, and cannot wait to see if a VIP scores the desired time with their VIP discount.

I have made it work for me. Many VIP owners are not traveling and are just trying to pay maintenance fees to make ends meet. This may not be the case for your or other tuggers but it is a reality for many. I ask All VIP members that are posting negative comments about my posts how many have actually tried to rent points from another VIP? I have and can tell you it's ussually less then using my points. Like my opinion or not it works for me. Make it work for you.
This post is my personal opinion

 

[jwalk03]

I am not a VIP owner but I have rented from several VIP owners on TUG for much less than what it would cost for me to buy points! Plus just renting gives me flexibility to rent in other systems as well.

In the last 4 years I have rented lots of Wyndhams, a couple Marriott’s, a Bluegreen, a Holiday Inn Vacation Club, a Westgate, and an independent. Not owning and just renting gives me maximum flexibility to go where I want without any ownership commitments! I love it.

 

[wjappraise]

[
I have made it work for me. Many VIP owners are not traveling and are just trying to pay maintenance fees to make ends meet. This not be the case for your or other tuggers but is a reality for many. I ask All VIP members that are posting negative comments about my posts how many have actually tried to rent points from another VIP? I have and can tell you it's ussually less then using my points. Like my opinion or not it works for me. Make it work for you.
This post is my personal opinion

Hey Dgalati.

I think we are pretty much on the same page. We can all see the merit in your assertion to save money by not becoming VIP. I truly believe no one (other than a Wyndham sales person) would advocate becoming a VIP from scratch at this point in time.

However, for those of us who are already VIP, we have no choice but to look on the bright side and find value in our ill advised purchases. Furthermore, some VIP owners compiled their purchases under a prior set of rules/standards that no longer exist. There are some nice perks that, while not worth the purchase price, do enhance our uses. For those VIP owners who espouse “status” of being VIP, that’s just nonsense.

So, for the most part, those of us who are VIP don’t mind hearing that we’ve wasted money, because it’s true. But we may also point out some of the advantages we have in our regrettable expenditures. That doesn’t mean we would do it all over again, but we don’t have a mulligan to play. My guess is that some VIP owners interpret some of your posts as being punitive or dismissive and they push back. When you respond “but at least you have your VIP status” it just adds fuel to the fire.

We see your point about renting and we agree. Can’t you see our point, that we are stuck with our VIP purchase and are simply choosing to focus on the positive aspects of that purchase(s)?

I fear that in the volleying of sarcastic postings (I am as guilty of this as anyone) sometimes a new member or potential purchaser may get the wrong message. No one should buy developer points starting from scratch (in my opinion). However someone who already owns 962,000 developer points probably is best served by purchasing at least 39,000 more developer points.

Can you see what I’m saying?

Wes.

 

[dgalati]

Hey Dgalati.

I think we are pretty much on the same page. We can all see the merit in your assertion to save money by not becoming VIP. I truly believe no one (other than a Wyndham sales person) would advocate becoming a VIP from scratch at this point in time.

However, for those of us who are already VIP, we have no choice but to look on the bright side and find value in our ill advised purchases. Furthermore, some VIP owners compiled their purchases under a prior set of rules/standards that no longer exist. There are some nice perks that, while not worth the purchase price, do enhance our uses. For those VIP owners who espouse “status” of being VIP, that’s just nonsense.

So, for the most part, those of us who are VIP don’t mind hearing that we’ve wasted money, because it’s true. But we may also point out some of the advantages we have in our regrettable expenditures. That doesn’t mean we would do it all over again, but we don’t have a mulligan to play. My guess is that some VIP owners interpret some of your posts as being punitive or dismissive and they push back. When you respond “but at least you have your VIP status” it just adds fuel to the fire.

We see your point about renting and we agree. Can’t you see our point, that we are stuck with our VIP purchase and are simply choosing to focus on the positive aspects of that purchase(s)?

I fear that in the volleying of sarcastic postings (I am as guilty of this as anyone) sometimes a new member or potential purchaser may get the wrong message. No one should buy developer points starting from scratch (in my opinion). However someone who already owns 962,000 developer points probably is best served by purchasing at least 39,000 more developer points.

Can you see what I’m saying?

Wes.

Thanks Wes for your point of view. I Agree, Nothing wrong with making your ownership work any way you bought in. I apologize if anyone was offended by my posts. My intent was to inform others of what worked for me.

 

[HitchHiker71]

[


I have made it work for me. Many VIP owners are not traveling and are just trying to pay maintenance fees to make ends meet. This may not be the case for your or other tuggers but it is a reality for many. I ask All VIP members that are posting negative comments about my posts how many have actually tried to rent points from another VIP? I have and can tell you it's ussually less then using my points. Like my opinion or not it works for me. Make it work for you.
This post is my personal opinion

I’m confused. If you are VIP and have the same access to discount windows and upgrades as other VIPs, then how can it be less expensive to rent from other VIPs? Granted if you are only VIPS and renting from a VIPP I can kinda see your point, but if you are also paying MFs on the points you own plus adding the cost of renting from other VIPs, I don’t see how the math adds up. Please provide an actual real mathematical example.


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[Jan M.]

What is selling now for around $200K sold for around $30K in the early '90s.

I truly believe no one (other than a Wyndham sales person) would advocate becoming a VIP from scratch at this point in time.

I have to point out that $30k doesn't sound like much now but it was 30 years ago. It seems safe to say that in another 30 years people will be saying the same thing about $200k.

I was just asking my husband if he remembered when we went to our first presentation back in 1999 or 2000. We were offered several point packages but didn't buy at that time. One of those point packages was a large one that would make us gold VIP with a price of over $40k. At the time we couldn't imagine spending that much nor ever being able to use that many points. We didn't buy at that time but obviously we eventually spent that much and more and used every single point. If we had more foresight and dreamed bigger as Wyndham is now saying we would have spent a great deal less. I've used that phrase a number of times here on TUG over the years since I became a member and wonder if someone at Wyndham saw and remembered it. Anyhow at time we also wouldn't have risked taking a chance on resale but now thanks to the internet and TUG potential owners have options we didn't have at that time and can educate themselves about buying timeshares. And from reading other peoples posts I believe they are more likely to realize that they too will also find themselves taking more vacations before they know it.

While some owners have regrets about how much they spent or what/where they bought not all owners, developer or resale, have regrets. It is a similar discussion to the one about owning a second home vs owning timeshares.

I'm with HitchHiker71 in that I appreciate fully explained examples with the costs included when possible. Shaming or slamming others for financial choices they can't or wouldn't undo isn't helpful in giving anyone information and data that would actually be useful to them. As Braindead pointed out advising someone without knowing their financial circumstances or their vacation needs isn't helpful and can send a potential owner in a direction that isn't going to be good for them.

So here is a piece of advise that everyone should keep in mind when they post their opinions on what other people should or shouldn't do. Explain what you do/have, why it works for you and how it makes financial sense for your particular circumstances. That allows people to draw parallels to their own situation. Hopefully they will get insight from more than one person that will help them make a decision that works for them based on the best information we can all give them.

 

[dgalati]

I’m confused. If you are VIP and have the same access to discount windows and upgrades as other VIPs, then how can it be less expensive to rent from other VIPs? Granted if you are only VIPS and renting from a VIPP I can kinda see your point, but if you are also paying MFs on the points you own plus adding the cost of renting from other VIPs, I don’t see how the math adds up. Please provide an actual real mathematical example.

Not a VIP
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[chapjim]

I’m confused. If you are VIP and have the same access to discount windows and upgrades as other VIPs, then how can it be less expensive to rent from other VIPs? Granted if you are only VIPS and renting from a VIPP I can kinda see your point, but if you are also paying MFs on the points you own plus adding the cost of renting from other VIPs, I don’t see how the math adds up. Please provide an actual real mathematical example.


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Could be a timing thing. Maybe the other VIP booked a reservation on spec before I decided I wanted to go to that place at that time.

There are some differences in cost structures among VIPPs. My big contracts are at Bonnet Creek and Ocean Walk, not low maintenance fee resorts. I like them because I do a lot of ARP into both places, which for me pays off. Someone who owns at National Harbor, Canterbury, or PCB could reserve for less than I can.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Could be a timing thing. Maybe the other VIP booked a reservation on spec before I decided I wanted to go to that place at that time.

There are some differences in cost structures among VIPPs. My big contracts are at Bonnet Creek and Ocean Walk, not low maintenance fee resorts. I like them because I do a lot of ARP into both places, which for me pays off. Someone who owns at National Harbor, Canterbury, or PCB could reserve for less than I can.

Jim, thanks for your reply. I agree if it's a matter of limited availability then it makes sense, but that's not what dgalati is saying. If I'm reading his post above accurately, he's saying he's NOT a VIP. So his argument is essentially that it's cheaper for him to rent from another VIP, then to use his own points. But he's paying MFs on his own points no matter what, plus the cost outlay for the rental from the VIP. Most VIPs that I know don't rent based upon points booked within a discount window any longer - because cancel/rebook no longer exists - most VIPs rent points out between $6-9/1000 points depending on the resort and season. Most folks who rent plan vacations beyond the discount window anyways, so there's no difference between a resale owner, like dgalati, vs a developer account for points bookings as a result. This is why I'm asking for an actual mathematical example, so we can all understand the logical argument based on real numbers and not words.

 

[jjking42]

I got vip via resale a long time ago however those were the days that 28k deposit in RCI still worked. I thought no way am I ever going to need 308k points so I sold 154k and lost VIP.

Since that time Wyndham has built new resorts that require 200k to 400k points for a week. Now I wish I had those points back

I never once used VIP benefits. I did find it annoying that I could never find the week I wanted using my points but could rent it from Super renters for less than my MF.

I had no idea that Wyndham was selling these big packages and enticing people to get into the rental business.

I find since they have audited some accounts and made other changes to cut back the book- cancel-rebook loop hole it has become easier to find inventory with my points.

It’s unfortunate that those changes have had a financial impact on some VIP owners.


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[HitchHiker71]

I got vip via resale a long time ago however those were the days that 28k deposit in RCI still worked. I thought no way am I ever going to need 308k points so I sold 154k and lost VIP.

Since that time Wyndham has built new resorts that require 200k to 400k points for a week. Now I wish I had those points back

I never once used VIP benefits. I did find it annoying that I could never find the week I wanted using my points but could rent it from Super renters for less than my MF.

I had no idea that Wyndham was selling these big packages and enticing people to get into the rental business.

I find since they have audited some accounts and made other changes to cut back the book- cancel-rebook loop hole it has become easier to find inventory with my points.

It’s unfortunate that those changes have had a financial impact on some VIP owners.


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I use our VIP benefits for almost every transaction for personal use. Particularly the discount window and the automatic upgrades. The megarenters were either removed from the system a few years ago, or their activities were curtailed or limited via the changes to the VIP programs and the booking systems directly - such as the elimination of the cancel/rebook loophole. What you commented as unfortunate I claim as fortunate - as someone who only rents occasionally when I have extra points available - as opposed to those who essentially have created a commercial renting business for all intents and purposes - these changes have positively impacted booking availability for us VIP owners who purchased enough to obtain VIP primarily for personal use.

I suspect that, in the past, sales has "sold" VIP catered toward renters and actually encouraged people to get into the rental business. Recently I've heard from several sales reps that they are no longer permitted to speak in terms of obtaining VIP points for rental income or for any aspect of recovering MFs. I suspect that the next iteration of VIP, called Wyndham Privileges - will continue to push benefits geared toward personal usage and away from any commercial usage - further discouraging direct owner rentals and further encouraging actual use of program benefits for personal vacations. Wyndham already has a rental program offering for owners, however it's not very competitive when compared to direct owner rentals. I suspect programs like this will undergo changes to become more attractive to owners moving forward - to further discourage direct owner rentals. I also expect either increased duration discount windows and/or upgrade windows, or perhaps even flat discounts per tier with no windows, to further enhance the value proposition for VIP ownership and developer points purchases, along with limitations placed upon resale purchases over time (like Disney and HGVC have done) - to close the large gap between developer vs resale.

 

[ecwinch]

Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.

 

[wjappraise]

Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.

Don’t give them ideas! Delete this post!

Wes.

 

[dgalati]

Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.

Wyndham has this in their cross hairs now thanks to you. lol

 

[dgalati]

Jim, thanks for your reply. I agree if it's a matter of limited availability then it makes sense, but that's not what dgalati is saying. If I'm reading his post above accurately, he's saying he's NOT a VIP. So his argument is essentially that it's cheaper for him to rent from another VIP, then to use his own points. But he's paying MFs on his own points no matter what, plus the cost outlay for the rental from the VIP. Most VIPs that I know don't rent based upon points booked within a discount window any longer - because cancel/rebook no longer exists - most VIPs rent points out between $6-9/1000 points depending on the resort and season. Most folks who rent plan vacations beyond the discount window anyways, so there's no difference between a resale owner, like dgalati, vs a developer account for points bookings as a result. This is why I'm asking for an actual mathematical example, so we can all understand the logical argument based on real numbers and not words.

Examples of My rentals from a VIP. I am a non VIP owner.
Clearwater 4th of July 2 years back. Would of cost me 200,000 points for a 1 bedroom if a room was available to me (which it was not). In the 60 day discount window booked a 1 bedroom presidential reserve through a VIP for $600. To book this with 200,000 of my own points at a monthly maintenance cost of $68 or $820 yearly on 154,000 points or about $1060 (.0053 cents x 200,000 points) yearly maintenance on 200,000 points at Grand Desert.
Another example booked within 60 day discount window at Midtown 45, Thurs - Sunday 3 nights 1 bedroom deluxe. $675 cost from VIP. This room would have been 234,000 points , my cost on maintenace fees for these points is .0053 x 234,000 = $1240

I have a few others but they are comparable to the above examples. What is really nice is when I need a room and no availability was available to me but a VIP had room available to them.

 

[55plus]

Renting to others was a sales weasel lie - say anything to make a sale, even lie, lie and they lie there way into your pockets, wallets and bank accounts. In the Wyndham directory it states not for commercial use, so Wyndham in general never approved it, but didn't prevent of it. The last policy change took care of mega renters, which allowed owner to have more availability at demand locations and during demand timeframes. Prior to the policy change you needed APR for Daytona Bike Week, Biketoberfest, Daytona 500. Not any more thanks to the policy change. Last year I was able to book Bikeweek and the 500 at half points, but you have to work the website and stay on top of it.

 

[ecwinch]

Renting to others was a sales weasel lie - say anything to make a sale, even lie, lie and they lie there way into your pockets, wallets and bank accounts. In the Wyndham directory it states not for commercial use, so Wyndham in general never approved it, but didn't prevent of it. The last policy change took care of mega renters, which allowed owner to have more availability at demand locations and during demand timeframes. Prior to the policy change you needed APR for Daytona Bike Week, Biketoberfest, Daytona 500. Not any more thanks to the policy change. Last year I was able to book Bikeweek and the 500 at half points, but you have to work the website and stay on top of it.

I even got Mardi Gras for my daughter.... but wont be able to do that next year after Wyndham reads my previous post.... lol

 

[55plus]

I even got Mardi Gras for my daughter.... but wont be able to do that next year after Wyndham reads my previous post.... lol

So many demand locations opened up after the demise of the mega renters. The Wyndham directory already states VIP benefits only apply VIP members, so with several lines of code added Wyndham could stop guests from receiving the discounts and upgrades. Plan for it to be implemented in the future, and I'm okay with that.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Examples of My rentals from a VIP. I am a non VIP owner.
Clearwater 4th of July 2 years back. Would of cost me 200,000 points for a 1 bedroom if it was room was available to me (which it was not). In the 60 discount window booked a 1 bedroom presidential reserve through a VIP for $600. To book this with 200,000 of my own points at a monthly maintenance cost of $68 or $820 yearly on 154,000 points or about $1060 (.0053 cents x 200,000 points) yearly maintenance on 200,000 points at Grand Desert.
Another example booked within 60 day discount window at Midtown 45, Thurs - Sunday 3 nights 1 bedroom deluxe. $675 cost from VIP. This room would have been 234,000 points , my cost on maintenace fees for these points is .0053 x 234,000 = $1240

I have a few others but they are comparable to the above examples. What is really nice is when I need a room and no availability was available to me but a VIP had room available to them.

Several things don't add up here to me. One, within 10 months, points are points. This is pretty much a universal truth here on TUG. The only time points aren't points is within the 10-13 month ARP windows. Given you are saying these bookings occurred within the 60 day discount booking window - this means points are points. Therefore, there should never be a scenario when something is not available for you, that is available to a VIP within 10 months - unless you don't have the points available to make the booking itself. Second, let's look at this from a net outlay standpoint based upon your own numbers.

Let's assume you have you have the 434,000 annual points to support both bookings directly. Here's your net annualized outlay in actual dollars as I see it:

Renting plus ownership costs:

$600.00 VIP rental
$675.00 VIP rental
$2300.20 annual MFs (0.0053 cents x 434,000 points)
_______
$3575.20 dollars spent

Ownership costs:

$2300.20 annual MFs (0.0053 cents x 434,000 points)

I understand that it might be more efficient in so far as comparing the discounted points costs the a VIP could pass along to a renter, but this is the exception not the rule IME since most people who rent from VIPs do so outside of the discount window. The fact is that you're still paying your annual MFs for your points, plus the costs of rentals out of pocket. What are you actually using your own points for? To me, you are arguing funny money with respect to the efficiency aspects, since the bottom line is you have sunk costs for your own MFs on top of whatever rental costs you choose to absorb.

 

[paxsarah]

The only time points aren't points is within the 10-13 month ARP windows. Given you are saying these bookings occurred within the 60 day discount booking window - this means points are points.

He said it was Presidential Reserve, where points aren’t points until inside 30 days.

 

[HitchHiker71]

He said it was Presidential Reserve, where points aren’t points until inside 30 days.

Specific to non-VIP vs VIP? I can book PR units at any point within 10 months, same within the 60 day discount window. That said, I'm not familiar with the PR program itself.

 

[wjappraise]

Specific to non-VIP vs VIP? I can book PR units at any point within 10 months, same within the 60 day discount window. That said, I'm not familiar with the PR program itself.

You can book "Presidential" units within 10 months, not "Presidential Reserve" units. Several resorts that have true PR units hold 75% of the PR units for Presidential Reserve owners only to use until 30 days prior the the reservations date, at which point they are opened up to all members. Unless you are a Presidential Reserve owner, the PR inventory being held will not even show as available - assuming, of course, that the website is operating correctly, which we know to be a crap shoot.

Wes

 

[wjappraise]

Thanks Wes for your point of view. I Agree, Nothing wrong with making your ownership work any way you bought in. I apologize if anyone was offended by my posts. My intent was to inform others of what worked for me.

Thanks, Dominic.

I trust your intent, and in reality I agree with you in most of your posts. Specifically, there is great value in NEVER buying a timeshare and always renting from an existing owner. And you are correct that costs are better in the far majority of cases. Just look at RedWeek.com to see a black-and-white proof of what Dominic is stating. The cost for a non-VIP owner to reserve a two bedroom deluxe unit at Bonnet Creek over the summertime is 224,000 points. Assuming a cost of $6.50 per thousand points, the cost would be $1456, plus whatever reservation transaction cost and housekeeping costs are added to a non-VIP owner. Of the FORTY 2 bedroom units of 7 days at Bonnet Creek listed for sale in the next two months (end of July), only NINE of them are listed for over $1456. That means THIRTY ONE units are listed for sale at a cheaper cost than a non-VIP can book the room.

That is staggering. . .

Then, to add insult to injury, some of us list that same room here for $800, and have TUG members refuse to pay that much, and they want it for less than $100 a night. . . and some TUG members will accommodate that ridiculous price point. Dominic is on to something.

Wes

 

[dgalati]

Thanks, Dominic.

I trust your intent, and in reality I agree with you in most of your posts. Specifically, there is great value in NEVER buying a timeshare and always renting from an existing owner. And you are correct that costs are better in the far majority of cases. Just look at RedWeek.com to see a black-and-white proof of what Dominic is stating. The cost for a non-VIP owner to reserve a two bedroom deluxe unit at Bonnet Creek over the summertime is 224,000 points. Assuming a cost of $6.50 per thousand points, the cost would be $1456, plus whatever reservation transaction cost and housekeeping costs are added to a non-VIP owner. Of the FORTY 2 bedroom units of 7 days at Bonnet Creek listed for sale in the next two months (end of July), only NINE of them are listed for over $1456. That means THIRTY ONE units are listed for sale at a cheaper cost than a non-VIP can book the room.

That is staggering. . .

Then, to add insult to injury, some of us list that same room here for $800, and have TUG members refuse to pay that much, and they want it for less than $100 a night. . . and some TUG members will accommodate that ridiculous price point. Dominic is on to something.

Wes

I sold all my deeds then bought back in to have more control over reserving a room. It also helps me to know what is a good value in renting if have the visibility to know actual points it takes to rent a room. I travel more then I have points available. I will use all my points every year (Only 322,00 as of now). It is just a better value for me to rent when I can for less. This is not always possible but within the 60 day discount I have been able to. The VIP members I deal with have received many referrals for the deals they have passed along to me. If it is wiser to use my points I will.

 

[dgalati]

Several things don't add up here to me. One, within 10 months, points are points. This is pretty much a universal truth here on TUG. The only time points aren't points is within the 10-13 month ARP windows. Given you are saying these bookings occurred within the 60 day discount booking window - this means points are points. Therefore, there should never be a scenario when something is not available for you, that is available to a VIP within 10 months - unless you don't have the points available to make the booking itself. Second, let's look at this from a net outlay standpoint based upon your own numbers.

Let's assume you have you have the 434,000 annual points to support both bookings directly. Here's your net annualized outlay in actual dollars as I see it:

Renting plus ownership costs:

$600.00 VIP rental
$675.00 VIP rental
$2300.20 annual MFs (0.0053 cents x 434,000 points)
_______
$3575.20 dollars spent

Ownership costs:

$2300.20 annual MFs (0.0053 cents x 434,000 points)

I understand that it might be more efficient in so far as comparing the discounted points costs the a VIP could pass along to a renter, but this is the exception not the rule IME since most people who rent from VIPs do so outside of the discount window. The fact is that you're still paying your annual MFs for your points, plus the costs of rentals out of pocket. What are you actually using your own points for? To me, you are arguing funny money with respect to the efficiency aspects, since the bottom line is you have sunk costs for your own MFs on top of whatever rental costs you choose to absorb.

I only have 322,000 Points which I will use all of and usually travel more then the points I have available allows me.. I only rent if it is cheaper then the 5.30 per 1000 of maintenance cost. Or if a PR VIP can reserve when its not available to me. The simple math is instead of buying more points and paying 5.30 per 1000 I can rent for close to 1/2. May not work or be possible always to rent but if it is available I will rent over using my points. As per example rented 434,000 points for almost half of what it would of cost to own and pay maintenance fees on the points owned. Also I always travel last minute and this may not work if you need to book 10-13 months in advance.