Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[Floridaman76]

Interesting that some Patriot Place units were slated as WorldMark units. Instead, the whole resort, ostensibly, gets off-loaded?

And c'mon, 13 units at Kingsgate if/when it happens "this is really a net NEGATIVE to owners. It will no doubt making booking MUCH more difficult in general"? Seems more like panic fomenting.

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You are missing my point, In and of itself, 13 units at KG would go unnoticed to CW owners. 13 units PLUS the entire resort at PP.

There are 41 buildings at PP, each building has a minimum of 12 units. That's 492 units at a location gone from the system at one location. That's big and I feel you are really discounting the effect this will have on the ability to book in Williamsburg.

And to say, "well it will possibly be in RCI", maybe, but after an exchange fee, and with potential HK charge if you don't stay exactly a week, and also we lose VIP suite upgrades, discounts and the ability to check in on whatever day we want and stay up to 14 days on one booking.

RCI is not Club Wyndham. And who's to say this would even go into RCI. It might go stand alone or into II or another system we do not have access to.

The point stands at Newport/Jamestown also. Those summer months there are treasured and valuable, those people who own fixed summer weeks are going to be PISSED if they lose their week. They are probably one of the few Wyndham ownerships that have any value at sale.

 

[donno]

Any idea what this means for someone who only owns at Fairfield Bay? I wouldn't be too mad if this was an exit. Been an owner for over 30 years so timing might be right to move on.

I also only own at Fairfield Bay, but I am not looking for a change. One of my contracts MF=$5.55 and the other $6.54. Both are lower than the one MF from the HOA that gets reported in the TUG spreadsheet for Fairfield Bay.

 

[Roger830]

But where do the replacement deeds come from? It would take a while to redevelop these resorts, so the replacement deeds won't come from there. At least not right away. We still really don't have an answer as to if CWA even has any ownership, and how much, at these impacted properties.

I have a deed for one of the two best 2-bed units for super prime week 7 at Sea Gardens Ocean Palms in Pompano worth 140,000 points that they can have.

 

[CO skier]

I would surmise that low CW owner occupancy at these types of resorts is what resulted in some units being moved into Worldmark. Equalization across the two major timeshare systems where appropriate. IDK if Worldmark owners would view this as a net positive or not.

Only one data point, but I love the addition of Flagstaff to WorldMark. As a resale owner, I cannot use Club Pass and had to use RCI to access the CW Flagstaff resort. Now I can book directly. Just yesterday, I needed a Sunday night in November traveling from Las Vegas, NV to Pagosa Springs, CO. There are only a few WorldMark units at CW Flagstaff, but I found the night I needed -- and the usual story, a condo with a full kitchen for less than the price of a Holiday Inn Express or Hampton Inn.

Now I will watch Monday Madness and Inventory Specials to see if I can book the single night for cash and save a housekeeping token for a different trip.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I have several deeds at Patriot's Place. Have not received any notifications yet. In the past several non-wyndham locations that I owned closed and I got nothing.

Someone somewhere got the money you were entitled to get, if that timeshare closed down as a timeshare. Deeded timeshares should get "something" from a sale. The management company could say that clearing all titles going back decades for each owner took an extraordinary amount of cash, but I do think that the cost of doing that would be minimal.

The question is, were you asked to sign away your rights to that timeshare week or weeks?

I say this because it's in our future for one resort that is reaching a "Sunset" date. After the developer leaves a timeshare property to a management company and disappears, who is the actual underlying owner of that property? Is a family member of the developer going to come back and claim the property because it's in the name of the developer? Could happen, yes indeed, and we are grappling with that possibility as an HOA.

 

[CO skier]

I don't see deeds in the trust a problem.

With enough votes, Wyndham disbands the hoa then compensates any other owners and takes possession of the resorts.
The deeds are removed from the trust and replaced with deeds that have an equivalent amount of points.
Wyndham sells of redevelops the accumulated propertys.

That is how it played out at Club Wyndham Pagosa Mountain Meadows -- Special Meeting vote to terminate the timeshare plan, followed immediately by a Special Meeting to convert the property to a condo project (see post #45). It seemed clear Wyndham owned enough deeds that the "votes were in the bag." A partition vote of the condo owners is held, Wyndham has "the votes in the bag" and the property is sold to the condo developer.

The Club Wyndham Mountain Meadows CWS points go "poof" because the project is no longer in the Club Wyndham Plus system and unavailable for use by other Club Wyndham members. (Yes, the points in the Club still "balance") Most personal owners probably do not even vote and just ride it out to the eventual sale. A relatively few sign over their partitioned deed and get a no cost exit from Club Wyndham. Even fewer sign over their partitioned deed for the equivalent amount of points they previous owned, and continue on in Club Wyndham using these (probably CWA) points.

But where do the replacement deeds come from? It would take a while to redevelop these resorts, so the replacement deeds won't come from there. At least not right away. We still really don't have an answer as to if CWA even has any ownership, and how much, at these impacted properties.

Bentley Brook and Lake Lure are not CWA resorts, but that is irrelevant. There must be a zillion unsold points in CWA that Wyndham can offer to owners in exchange for partitioned deeds (if/when it comes to that denouement). Those owners can then use the CWA points up to 13 months in advance at CWA resorts and not have to wait for the 10-month booking window.

 

[paxsarah]

We still really don't have an answer as to if CWA even has any ownership, and how much, at these impacted properties.

The “if” should be covered here: https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/owner-guide/resources/club-wyndham-access/resorts

And the “how much” should be listed in the most recent CWA public offering statement, but the only one I have a copy of is the now very old one (2018?) that I think I downloaded from a sticky thread here. I assume a CWA owner would have a right to request the most recent version from Wyndham, but I don’t own any CWA.

 

[CO skier]

You are missing my point, In and of itself, 13 units at KG would go unnoticed to CW owners.

My point was that the Club Wyndham units being transferred to WorldMark (maybe) are so insignificant, why even mention them regarding availability?

 

[Floridaman76]

My point was that the Club Wyndham units being transferred to WorldMark (maybe) are so insignificant, why even mention them regarding availability?

Keep reading my post... that, in addition to losing 492 units at Patriots Place, that makes using ANY units at Kingsgate significant to total available inventory in Williamsburg

When you have something on the order of 1300-1500 total units in a major resort destination like Williamsburg, and lose 12, that's a non issue.

When you lose 1/3 of the total inventory (approx 500), those 12 become statistically more significant

For that matter, why not transfer these resorts into Worldmark, that way at least CW owners (retail owners anyway) could still Club Pass into them and it would also assure they remain available via RCI

 

[CO skier]

Keep reading my post... that, in addition to losing 492 units at Patriots Place, that makes using ANY units at Kingsgate significant to total available inventory in Williamsburg

When you have something on the order of 1300-1500 total units in a major resort destination like Williamsburg, and lose 12, that's a non issue.

When you lose 1/3 of the total inventory (approx 500), those 12 become statistically more significant

Sure, "more significant" but 12 units out of 800-1000 is still insignificant and a nonissue.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Maybe more generally that specific to this situation, but how does a system like Wyndham count "owner occupancy" vs "rental" vs "exchange"? Like, I have CWS at Smokey Mountains - if I use points to stay at a different location, is that counted as a owner occupancy or exchange? If I use Bonus Time, is that a rental? Or is just their rental system considered a rental? I I stay on a GC, is that "owner occupancy" or "rental"?

Owner occupancy, within the CW system, is just that, owner occupancy. Rental is just that, rentals via Wyndham, or EH/VS, and possibly GCs depending on how they track this data. Exchanges are from systems like RCI/II - actual exchanges.

Then I still don't get the apparent resort dislike of exchanges. Presumably the actual owner is paying MFs and SAs and getting value from exchanging. I would be a bit surprised if exchangers who are in some sense depositing their owned week would be much rougher on the exchange location than at their home resort - if they even have one in Wyndham, if they count CWS bookings as exchanges, and even if they're counting RCI, that's still someone depositing something to get the exchange. At worst it's an owner paying cash, but I still doubt it's a rough as straight rentals.

My guess is they think with a needed SA because of age and I assume difficulty of keeping owners at even higher MFs they think these resorts are going into a death spiral, or at risk of that. And they think papering over with CWA ownership is just making CWA more expensive for what Wyndham thinks are marginal resorts I guess.

The overall question here is if a resort is majority used by non-owners persistently, then why would Wyndham keep it in the system? However that non-owner category is defined, it really doesn't matter, if the resort isn't attracting actual Wyndham owner occupancy, then it's likely a resort under consideration to be removed strategically. Then it's about the how and the when.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Owner occupancy, within the CW system, is just that, owner occupancy. Rental is just that, rentals via Wyndham, or EH/VS, and possibly GCs depending on how they track this data. Exchanges are from systems like RCI/II - actual exchanges.

The overall question here is if a resort is majority used by non-owners persistently, then why would Wyndham keep it in the system? However that non-owner category is defined, it really doesn't matter, if the resort isn't attracting actual Wyndham owner occupancy, then it's likely a resort under consideration to be removed strategically. Then it's about the how and the when.

I'm probably being dense in how I'm reading this sentence, but are you defining "owners" as "People who own anywhere in the Wyndham system including CWA," or only as "people who own at that specific resort?" Because if it's the latter, I'd think a resort that lots of CWA owners stay at and lots of Wyndham VIP owners who own select resorts stay at would still be one that Wyndham would want to keep. If it's the former, then yeah, what you're saying makes sense to me.

 

[HitchHiker71]

This is true. It sounds like what these resort employees have been told is that they’ll no longer have a job as of January 1. In true Facebook fashion, the bringers of this news have gone a step further and are insisting that these resorts are “closing.” But it’s also quite possible that it’s simply Wyndham as the manager of that resort saying you’ll no longer be employed by us. I’d be skeptical that this plan leaves 10-20 resorts simply vacant and boarded up.

Not sure what the associates were told - other than a process is starting. Whatever the details of said process are remains to be seen - which I'm sure varies by resort and by state as contracts and laws require. My speculation based upon what I've heard is that these resorts are being sold off to generate revenues for other ventures. Not just removed from the system, not closed, sold to another buyer. If that buyer is another timeshare company, then perhaps those associates would transition to the purchasing company, perhaps not. Again, speculation on my part to be clear.

Except that Craig said that he was told that such “owners who want to stay whole will be given no-cost points options to do so,” which leads me to wonder how they do that while avoiding an overselling situation, assuming that means long-term wholeness (but maybe that’s an incorrect assumption). I’d also be pretty annoyed if I were a Villa Rica or Club Destin owner who lost VIP levels when those left the program, if these owners receive points compensation that allows them to retain the same VIP eligibility they had.

Correct, those owners who wish to remain whole, to keep their current points allotment and/or VIP level, will be offered no cost options directly from Wyndham to do so, if they so desire, or they can choose not to do so, and the HOA will provide options in that case, which I would surmise if the asset is being sold, said owners would then receive whatever proportional proceeds their inventory is entitled to once the sale of the asset is completed.

 

[jp10558]

I'm probably being dense in how I'm reading this sentence, but are you defining "owners" as "People who own anywhere in the Wyndham system including CWA," or only as "people who own at that specific resort?" Because if it's the latter, I'd think a resort that lots of CWA owners stay at and lots of Wyndham VIP owners who own select resorts stay at would still be one that Wyndham would want to keep. If it's the former, then yeah, what you're saying makes sense to me.

IDK I thought rentals made a lot of money, and presumably Wyndham can use these resorts as Exchange dumps to RCI vs perhaps more desirable for other Wyndham owners locations? Presumably Wyndham does have to deposit something when people exchange using their points.

 

[Floridaman76]

Owner occupancy, within the CW system, is just that, owner occupancy. Rental is just that, rentals via Wyndham, or EH/VS, and possibly GCs depending on how they track this data. Exchanges are from systems like RCI/II - actual exchanges.

The overall question here is if a resort is majority used by non-owners persistently, then why would Wyndham keep it in the system? However that non-owner category is defined, it really doesn't matter, if the resort isn't attracting actual Wyndham owner occupancy, then it's likely a resort under consideration to be removed strategically. Then it's about the how and the when.

Or, playing devils advocate, it IS in high demand and owners are renting units out to make money. We know there's a pattern of that.

I'm not saying that's what's the genesis behind this, especially in places like Patriots Place or the Glade, but quite possibly in Bentley Brook (near Boston) and the Newport area.

 

[dioxide45]

Not sure what the associates were told - other than a process is starting. Whatever the details of said process are remains to be seen - which I'm sure varies by resort and by state as contracts and laws require. My speculation based upon what I've heard is that these resorts are being sold off to generate revenues for other ventures. Not just removed from the system, not closed, sold to another buyer. If that buyer is another timeshare company, then perhaps those associates would transition to the purchasing company, perhaps not. Again, speculation on my part to be clear.

But a timeshare really can't be sold to another timeshare company. The property is owned by the owners (HOA). What would really happen is that Club Wyndham stops being the resort manager and some other resort management company steps in to take over management. Those employees could possibly transition to the new management company. Club Wyndham could sell any inventory they are holding at the property to the new resort manager or timeshare company to figure out what to do with.

Now a timeshare could stop being a timeshare and a different developer step in to buy the underlying real estate, including the buildings. Then they could resell it as new timeshare. Though that is a multi year, probably decade long process.

 

[Floridaman76]

My speculation based upon what I've heard is that these resorts are being sold off to generate revenues for other ventures. Not just removed from the system, not closed, sold to another buyer. If that buyer is another timeshare company, then perhaps those associates would transition to the purchasing company, perhaps not. Again, speculation on my part to be clear.

Hopefully whatever happens actually benefits the system, and this corporate windfall isn't used to pay out huge bonuses to the "C-Suite" and shareholders... at our (owners) expense

 

[paxsarah]

IDK I thought rentals made a lot of money, and presumably Wyndham can use these resorts as Exchange dumps to RCI vs perhaps more desirable for other Wyndham owners locations? Presumably Wyndham does have to deposit something when people exchange using their points.

Yes, and so I’m not sure that exchange vs. owner occupancy can be used against the resort when it’s Wyndham itself that determines what inventory from which resorts gets deposited to RCI. Now, the conditions that would cause Wyndham to deposit inventory from a particular resort to RCI in the first place (just guessing, like lower owner booking rates at, say, 8/6/4 months before check-in) might be a factor. But once it’s in RCI if it’s then snatched up by exchangers (as opposed to being left to languish and can barely be sold as a last call), I wouldn’t necessarily see that as a negative.

 

[CO skier]

Hopefully whatever happens actually benefits the system, and this corporate windfall isn't used to pay out huge bonuses to the "C-Suite" and shareholders... at our (owners) expense

Having "votes in (their) bag" comes at a price. Wyndham has been paying maintenance fees on non-performing deeded weeks at these resorts for years. Not all the weeks are non-performing, but many are, and those $359/week RCI Last Call vacations certainly do not cover the maintenance fees. After the property partition and sale, each owner receives a proportional share of the sales price less attorneys fees, brokerage commission, and any other costs -- maybe something around $1,500-$2,000/interval. Each owner puts whatever proceeds in their bank account.

Net-net, Wyndham probably does not come close to the breakeven point versus the maintenance fees paid over the years for the non-performing/under-performing weeks intervals.

 

[Floridaman76]

I spoke with someone who said they were an assistant GM at Patriots Place and they are under instructions to not deseminate information to the public at this time, but did confirm that "changes to this location are coming", that's all I could get him to say. When I questioned him about other sites he indicated he knew some things, but again, could not say anything.

He did say more information is coming in the next few weeks. He also said they just found out this week themselves.

 

[Floridaman76]

Having "votes in (their) bag" comes at a price. Wyndham has been paying maintenance fees on non-performing deeded weeks at these resorts for years. Not all the weeks are non-performing, but many are, and those $359/week RCI Last Call vacations certainly do not cover the maintenance fees. After the property partition and sale, each owner receives a proportional share of the sales price less attorneys fees, brokerage commission, and any other costs -- maybe something around $1,500-$2,000/interval. Each owner puts whatever proceeds in their bank account.

Net-net, Wyndham probably does not come close to the breakeven point versus the maintenance fees paid over the years for the non-performing/under-performing weeks intervals.

Unless an owner is delinquent on their MF, Wyndham isn't out ANY money. Admittedly when owners exit through Ovations/Certified Exit, Wymdham is on the hook for those until/if they can resell the inventory. Someone exchanging their week into RCI or II isn't "costing" Wyndham anything at the property the week is owned at. It's paid for by the owner whether or not they stay in the unit, rent it out or exchange it.

Honestly I don't know how it works when someone turns in a week, if that property has to stay legally as a week "inside" CWA or if it can be converted to UDI. The legalities of that probabkly differ a lot by state. Considering we can see Wyndham's financials, and they are doing quite well, one has to assume that them taking inventory back is not negatively impacting their bottom line as much as you might suggest.

 

[HitchHiker71]

That would seem to be the case. However, if at least some of that resort has deeded weeks in the CWA trust, the trust technically still owns those deeds. Theoretically CWA could still book those weeks but the Club affiliation is gone. So what happens with those deeds that are in CWA? Club Wyndham would need to dispose of them somehow. Who do they sell them to? CWA just owns deeds like any other CWS owner does. Thus why I asked upthread if CWA has ownership in any of these resorts that are being dropped.

Yes, CWA has ownership in almost all of the resorts that we're seeing on these subjective lists from what I can gather. The list of CWA resorts is published here - feel free to look through it - you'll see virtually every resort we have on the prospective list - I believe without exception though I just briefly skimmed so I cannot say for certain:

https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/content/club/clubwyndham/us/en/owner-guide/resources/club-wyndham-access/resorts.html?msockid=39d5ee9f5a866c583326ff535be96dd2

That said, I don't know how much inventory Wyndham holds in CWA for any of the impacted resorts - we would need a current CWA POS to answer that question. Anyone happen to have a 2024 or 2025 CWA POS handy?

 

[HitchHiker71]

One thing that crossed my mind would be something like a PIC contract. The more I think about it, neither of the existing types of PIC exactly fit what would be needed here, but it could be similar to that model - the first thing that popped into my head was PIC Express with virtual points propping up VIP levels for 5 years. Or similar to the Limited Edition contracts. But either of those I’d imagine could only be temporary.

Hmmm that's an interesting proposition on the face of it at least. Assume a subset of these resorts end up in other timeshare systems and are integrated with RCI - if there's an option to "keep" your ownership somehow with the new timeshare company as a possible offering (not sure if this is even feasible), then you could then enroll that week into either PIC Plus or PIC Express (if it's points). You could just pay the flat fee for PIC Plus of around $3k and enroll for five years - or you could make a developer purchase and make it permanent so long as that resort remains in RCI. Interesting idea.

 

[HitchHiker71]

But where do the replacement deeds come from? It would take a while to redevelop these resorts, so the replacement deeds won't come from there. At least not right away. We still really don't have an answer as to if CWA even has any ownership, and how much, at these impacted properties.

They would likely be replaced with CWA or another one of the trust based ownership options - not CWS.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I spoke with someone who said they were an assistant GM at Patriots Place and they are under instructions to not deseminate information to the public at this time, but did confirm that "changes to this location are coming", that's all I could get him to say. When I questioned him about other sites he indicated he knew some things, but again, could not say anything.

He did say more information is coming in the next few weeks. He also said they just found out this week themselves.

That's correct - there will be limited information available until the public announcement is sent sometime soon - hopefully as soon as today but I'd guess sometime next week.