WSJ - Coral Vista Villas phase

[DavidnRobin]

OK - some data (and less speculation) - and some repeat...
{and sorry if I jotted some data down incorrectly - so use at your own risk...}

WSJ-CV will work like WLR (Cancun) in that deeds are held by a Club and not by Owners - and the Owners get SOs - which are the same as Home Options (HOs) when used within the Home Resort period - effectively no difference between SOs and HOs - just fancied up some. Not sure if there will be a difference in exchanging in/out of WSJ-CV in terms of SO usage.

WSJ will have studios and 2Bds (we knew that) - but there will be both standard 2 Bd and 2Bd lofts like WSJ-BV (with the price running higher for the lofts of course)

all float... but not limited to week (Fri-Fri, Sat-Sat, Sun-Sun) usage

wk7 (Prez Day), and wk51-52 (Xmas, NYE) sold as event weeks (~10% higher) - fixed

Prices and associated HOs:
Studio:
wk1-6, wk8-18 -- $33.5K (81K HO)
wk19-23, wk31-33 -- $20.6K (67.1K HO)
wk24-30 -- $22.4K (67.1K HO)
wk34-50 -- N/A (44K HO)

2Bd Loft:
wk1-6, wk8-18 -- $79.3K (176.7K HO)
wk19-23, wk31-33 -- $49.5K (148.1K HO)
wk24-30 -- $53.3K (148.1K HO)
wk34-50 -- $32-34.4K (95.7K HO) [Note: I may have heard this incorrectly]

2Bd Std layout will be from $6K to $2K cheaper (depending on season)

I was told by Direct Sales - that WSJ-CV is only being sold at WSJ (and they handle all other resorts including WSJ-VG and WSJ-BV)

Please correct - where wrong.

 

[czar]

OK - some data (and less speculation) - and some repeat...

2Bd Std layout will be from $6K to $2K cheaper (depending on season)

I was told by Direct Sales - that WSJ-CV is only being sold at WSJ (and they handle all other resorts including WSJ-VG and WSJ-BV)

Please correct - where wrong.

David,

This is more info than they have me when I called. But they told me same thing that it could only be purchased on site, which was why I was surprised about Maui.

I don't understand how they'll differentiate between 2br and 2nr loft if they require se number of options?

 

[czar]

A little different pricing, but here's the info I got from direct sales (they sent this in an email) and had previously posted in the other thread about SVN moving to a points system:

For Coral Vista, the building ownership is held in a trust and the points for Coral Vista represent interests in the trust, instead of deeded villas as in the other sections of Westin St. John. Instead of selling deeded weeks we are selling points, which can be used in the following seasons: Diamond Season 1 thru 6, and Resort Season 1 thru 8.

2BR and Studio are the villa sizes offered (no 1BR or 3BR villas) in Coral Vista. The top 2 demand seasons for 2BR villas are:

Diamond 1: 176,000 Star Options per week of 2BR use: $61,000
Diamond 2: 148,100 Star Options per week of 2BR use: $51,100

For summer season 2BR usage the seasons are:

Resort 1 (weeks 19-23, 31-33): 148,100 Star Options per week of 2BR use: $45,700
Resort 1 (weeks 24-30): 148,100 Star Options per week of 2BR use: $49,500

From David's info and this, it seems like the home booking windows are pretty specific? Perhaps that's how they'll try to ensure availability?

 

[YYJMSP]

Which ones are these: The VOIs that were (or are) sold for WKORVN (IV) and WPORV (at 148.1K SOs) were ~$50K and ~$56K, respectively - with very high MFs. I assume cheaper for 148.1K SOs at resorts like WLR and WDW and VV-Amelia (etc) - but WSJ is high-end resort (w/ high MFs) and more in line with WKORV/N and HRA (etc).

We paid just a bit more than $40K annual/$20K EOY for WKORV, WKORVN and WLR. We paid pretty much right on the $40K/$20K for WDW. All are 148.1K SO's.

The rest of our units (all at SVR) are resales, and none of them were 148.1K SO's

 

[DavidnRobin]

We paid just a bit more than $40K annual/$20K EOY for WKORV, WKORVN and WLR. We paid pretty much right on the $40K/$20K for WDW. All are 148.1K SO's.

The rest of our units (all at SVR) are resales, and none of them were 148.1K SO's

You missed my point re: SO cost at CV - I am not sure about your specific purchases (what a 'deal' those must be...) - but plenty of 148.1K SOs VOIs (from SVO) have been sold well north of $40K. WKORV-IV sold for $48K back in 2006 (I know 2 people who paid this) - this is 20% higher - and the OV and OF WKORVN sold for much more (I rescinded a OF WKORVN at $74K).

WPORV sells for $56K, etc... WKORV IV did sell for ~$40K (way back when), but OV and OF sold for more (WKORV OF Dlx sold for $65K and now sells for ~$120K).

My point was that at a high-end resort like WSJ - especially compared to the SOs that originaly came with WSJ-BV had a higher $/SO cost - of course, they have now adjusted those SOs upward. So.. I was merely stating that it seemed (on the surface) that CV had a good SO cost (I wasn't trying to start a who got a better deal argument)

 

[okwiater]

I just did an owners update at WKV and they were selling WSJ-CV. We were told that there are two seasons, "Diamond" (mid December through April) and "Resort" (May through mid December). Weeks are held in the trust and you are purchasing options. Was also told that no other resort holdings could be placed in the same trust, i.e. it is just for WSJ-CV. So this does not sound like the Marriott points system.

Also, pricing seemed pretty favorable all things considered. Here is what we were offered:

148,100 options in resort season - $38,100
95,700 options in resort season - $24,600

Was also told that a $20k purchase was sufficient to retro. (different from the prior $40k WSJ minimum spend)

Diamond season was significantly more expensive, by >$20k, and only bumped to 176k options from 148k. So the advantage to buying that season is if you want priority booking for the holidays or for spring break. If you want to travel in the summer, resort season will give you much more flexibility.

Thoughts?

 

[czar]

Price sheet

Here's some more info and a price sheet:

Due to limited on site inventory, Maui and Kierland (Scottsdale AZ) are authorized to sell St. John inventory. Only those 2 sites plus the St. John resort, nobody else.

Today’s prices appear below. What I can’t tell you (because I don’t know) is how these points spend within the Coral Vista section when not trading for Star Options. I do know that they do daily stays but I don’t have the chart for how the points spend.

Westin St. John - Coral Vista (PP)


screenshot_60 by czar44, on Flickr

 

[DavidnRobin]

Funny that the Direct Sales person told me that CV was only being sold at WSJ. I was going to tell him BS, but not worth it (besides he was chaulked full of 'info' - of course could be misinfo)

You may get a bunch of SOs for the higher season - but personally I would not want to be on StJ at that time (no need to escape cold - and way too crowded - plus following winter the water is calmer).

As I mentioned - for WSJ-CV - the SOs seem reasonable (for a SVO purchase). Overall - no matter how they structure CV, and their reasoning to have different than BV - you can be assured it is for their benefit (profit) and not because they are being generous.

Still - no mention of MFs? This is what I want to hear about.

Added - thanks czar - interesting - pieces are starting to come together.
Still... No info on MFs?

 

[okwiater]

Resort season 148,100 options was $2518 MFs.
Resort season 95,700 options was $1915 MFs.

 

[czar]

Resort season 148,100 options was $2518 MFs.
Resort season 95,700 options was $1915 MFs.

So looks like they're charging MF based on options. That's interesting. So higher buy-in and higher fees for better season. Wonder what diamond season fees will look like - closer to $3k? Still wondering how they'll handle the 2br loft.

$2500 seems high for a 2br. Our 3br BV is $200 less and will have more SO. I think the 2br BV is around $1900 or so.

 

[LisaRex]

Using points instead of deeded weeks is a clever way of spreading the pain of MFs among owners. Many states will not allow timeshare companies to assess lower MFs to low-season owners (and higher MFs to high season owners) because it shouldn't matter what season you own. A summer week owner is still sleeping on the bed, using the appliances, and swimming in the pool. So it makes sense that all owners should pay the same rate.

Of course, developer-run management firms don't just charge what it takes to maintain the place. Unless, of course, you believe that it costs $10,000 per month to "maintain" a 2 bdrm villa in Hawaii or St. John. And they don't like the rule because it won't allow them to raise MFs above the current lowest season rental rates. Think about it, if a winter SBP or summer WKV owner can rent a 2 bdrm unit for $900 from Starwood directly, why would they agree to pay $1500 a week in MFs? Doesn't make sense. And Starwood knows that if they exceed low season rental rates, low season owners will quickly jump ship. So they know that they can't charge much more than $900/week, even though high season rental rates are double that.

It used to be that they made up for the disparity by charging high season owners a premium to buy their unit. But now that they're really curtailing new development, MFs is where their money is.

So what's a management firm to do if they want to squeeze more juice out of the orange? They create a points system that isn't connected to MFs! And then they charge folks who want to travel in high season a bunch more points! That way, they get more money out of high season owners while still complying with the law that says they can't charge high season owners a higher MF.

So clever!

 

[czar]

Looks like the MF is about 2¢/SO. If that holds true for the Diamond season, it looks like that MF would be close to $3300.

 

[czar]

From direct sales re MF:

A 148,100 Star Option Plat Plus ownership in CV will have a MF about $1K higher (annually) compared to Bay Vista.

 

[tomandrobin]

From direct sales re MF:

A 148,100 Star Option Plat Plus ownership in CV will have a MF about $1K higher (annually) compared to Bay Vista.

* Ouch *

Makes me happy I am in Bay Vista.

 

[OKPACIFIC]

Maint fee

From owners update presentation yesterday

For 176700 options the maint fee is $2882.00

 

[czar]

Interestingly, the buy in at BV for 2br is now $73,995. So $13k more for $1k less in yearly MF (but also get a larger unit). 3br is now just shy of $90k!

 

[LisaH]

I probably have missed it - is CV set up as voluntary or mandatory?

 

[czar]

I probably have missed it - is CV set up as voluntary or mandatory?

Coral Vista is Voluntary according to direct sales. He also said that all new developments will be Voluntary as well.

 

[SMHarman]

Coral Vista is Voluntary according to direct sales. He also said that all new developments will be Voluntary as well.

So does that mean the on resale your Coral Vista Options (sorry cant remember the SVO name) can only be used for booking Coral Vista? That is a pretty small pool of units to be aligned with!

My understanding may be off on how you use these but I think that means you could, at 12 months out be fighting with a Hurricaine Week guy who banked last years CV Options for the same week in February. That could get into a really nasty mess of have points but can't use them...

 

[czar]

So does that mean the on resale your Coral Vista Options (sorry cant remember the SVO name) can only be used for booking Coral Vista? That is a pretty small pool of units to be aligned with!

My understanding may be off on how you use these but I think that means you could, at 12 months out be fighting with a Hurricaine Week guy who banked last years CV Options for the same week in February. That could get into a really nasty mess of have points but can't use them...

I think you'd be restricted to your usage period. I'm making that assumption based on the fact that certain periods requiring the same number of home options have different sales prices. So if you could use those home options when're you wanted to, why would you pay more for the same number of options?

 

[SMHarman]

But still competing with developer purchases that are not restricted to their usage period.
And if your usage period is one of the small, premium usage periods (I recall this is being sold with about 6 different usage groups) then you are under even more pressure.
You have a VOI that almost has to be used like a fixed week but you still have to compete and book at the 12m period or you are SOL.

 

[czar]

But still competing with developer purchases that are not restricted to their usage period.
And if your usage period is one of the small, premium usage periods (I recall this is being sold with about 6 different usage groups) then you are under even more pressure.
You have a VOI that almost has to be used like a fixed week but you still have to compete and book at the 12m period or you are SOL.

Yeah it sounds like it would be tough for plat plus and plat owners. On the flip side, bc of the lower MF, more appealing for Gold season. Less comp for those weeks, too.

 

[darius]

Requal / Incentive questions

Hello everyone,

If I wanted to requal two Starwood weeks, would it make sense to break up two purchases of 74,050 SO's (total of 148,100) to requal both weeks? My weeks are 148,100 SO's, and this would give me 4*Elite.

What were the purchase incentives offered?

When a resort is in pre-construction, do they usually keep the prices the same until opening? Just curious because we will be at the Maui property in summer and was curious if there is any advantage of moving quicker to secure a better 'deal' if we decide to do this.

Thanks!

 

[czar]

Hello everyone,

If I wanted to requal two Starwood weeks, would it make sense to break up two purchases of 74,050 SO's (total of 148,100) to requal both weeks? My weeks are 148,100 SO's, and this would give me 4*Elite.

What were the purchase incentives offered?

When a resort is in pre-construction, do they usually keep the prices the same until opening? Just curious because we will be at the Maui property in summer and was curious if there is any advantage of moving quicker to secure a better 'deal' if we decide to do this.

Thanks!

I'd be curious to know if you could do that - I'm guessing that point allocation is equivalent to an every other year? But perhaps you get the allocation of points bc you're paying the MF yearly? Should be interesting to see, but it seems like it would be like purchasing two every other year units and re qualifying. It would make sense that you could probably buy two smaller points packages to requal both units assuming they follow what they've done at other resorts by allowing requals that are larger than the new purchases.

 

[okwiater]

I don't see why you couldn't do that.

The downside is that you'd be paying a slightly higher MF to do that. My SVO sales rep explained to me that each ownership comes with a base MF plus a per-StarOption MF. So the same number of options purchased as 2 ownerships would incur 2 base MFs (but the same per-option MFs).