WKORV or WKORV-N. New to timeshares.

[baluders]

Hello, I'm been reading on this forum a bit in the last two weeks after getting introduced to timeshares at WKORV during a sales presentation 6day/5night stay. Clearly I'm not going to purchase anything from the developer (insanely expensive for the benefits), but resale seems like it could work out.

Potentially interested in OFD or OF at WKORV, or OF at WKORV-N. Pretty important for me to have a view from the balcony, so I guess these are the only options that make sense.

Questions:

1. I am thinking of doing either an Even/Odd year. What, if anything is the downside to that? The fees don't look much higher, and if I wanted more weeks in the future, or the alternate year, I can just buy that then. Price for biannual is approximately 1/2 of annual. What am I missing as the downside?
2. Are there biannual OFD at WKORV? I haven't seen them anywhere.
3. Building 5, e.g., in WKOVR-N has some OF rooms that are better than others for a view. How is room location and floor determined? If I book at the stroke of midnight 12 months in advance, do I somehow get a nice high floor room with a good view? Or is the final room determined at check-in based on "whatever is available and clean/ready".
4. I'd consider an OV at WKORV, much cheaper than OF, as some of them would have nice views. However some have terrible views and are way in the back. Is getting a good unit just a matter of reservation time (similar to question 3 above) or are there other factors?
5. I will likely "split" the stay, as it is mostly going to be just two of us and one-week isn't long enough for me.
   1. it looks like WKORV-N might be best for splitting, due to the balcony in the studio? (although WKORV OFD also has studio balconies)
   2. How does splitting work? You book the 1BR on Friday/Sat/Sun one week, and then exactly one week later, stay up and try to book the Studio, and if that fails, too bad, no OF, you just have to wait until the 8 month mark and try to get an OV or IV studio using StarOptions.
6. I'm pretty skeptical of Timeshares, and my better half is even more so. Lots of horror stories out there about people being stuck in them. Whole industries around "getting people out of them", etc However, WKORV/N seem like they might "retain" value, and 10-20 years from now when I am done using it, I should, at worst, be able to give it away? Is that a reasonable assumption? In which case, as long as I know I love Maui and want to go back (and maybe do one trip to St. John, and one to Bahamas [also mandatory]), it can really work out well? Or am I missing something?
7. I assume the places to buy-one (if that happens) are Ebay (haven't ever seen WKORV there), Advantage Vacations (Syed), Redweek, or the Marketplace here. Am I missing something?

Thanks, appreciate any insight into the whole thing!

 

[vacationtime1]

We own ocean front center at WKORV and typically split the unit, using the 1bd and then the studio as you suggest. We bought both OF and OV during the Great Rescession and opted to keep the OF after staying in it once.

All of the OF units have lanais -- 1bd and studio -- North and South.

There are a few eoy OF units at South -- a few; I've seen two or three in a dozen years. If you want eoy, you will almost certainly end up buying at North. The only downside of eoy is the disproportionate closing cost.

Unit placement is based on timestamp. It is important to reserve at exactly midnight. Especially if you own at North and want to avoid the view of the back of Pailolo's (the beach bar).

If you buy at South, note the difference between the OF center units and the OF corner (deluxe) units.

We bought through Syed and recommend him highly.

 

[10spro]

We own OFD and absolutely *love* it. What I don't love is the hassle and challenge of reserving at exactly the right time. If you *have* to go during whale season, or spring break, or holidays, then you might want to consider renting the exact dates you need. It has been really hard to book our week even though we're Chairman and owners for 15+ years.

Be sure you look at the differences between OFD and OFC, including purchase price vs. maintenance fees. There for sure is nothing better than walking into the OFD unit with the extra windows along the side of the building, and sitting out on the patio, being on the corner it seems so much larger because you have 2 sides open. About the studio - OFC studio is truly oceanfront, OFD studio is classified as oceanfront but is physically on the side, OFD studio is larger. No matter which way you go, you have to, have to, have to, book at the exact time to have a chance of getting any preference on location (i.e. high floor, etc).

Redweek is a really good option to start looking at prices, even if you're not ready, just keep looking to see what comes up. Next you can check ROFR database, though not everyone updates their sale, there are lots of transactions to see pass/fail. We actually bought off Redweek direct from an owner. Others have used Syed and highly recommend him. We also have talked with Syed, he is super knowledgeable and would be a good resource through your learning process.

 

[sdtugger]

Is it possible to reserve ofd or ofc with abound points at 12 or 13 months? How about star options at 8 months?

 

[vacationtime1]

Is it possible to reserve ofd or ofc with abound points at 12 or 13 months? How about star options at 8 months?

Both are theoretically possible; availability will be the limiting factor.

There will be nothing in Abound unless/until OFD or OFC owners elect Abound points for their units. (I don't know whether these units would be released at 12 months or at 13 months).

StarOption reservations are sometimes available at the eight month mark -- but most likely during off season and for studio units. It's nice when it happens, but don't count on it for a specific week.

 

[baluders]

My understanding is as follows:

• Owners of OFD and OFC at WKORV and OF at WKORV-N can book 12 months in advance, view/room priority is based on timestamp.
• Abound point owners can also book 12 months in advance, same as above.
• StarOptions can be used 8 months in advance.
• Westin Flex cannot make reservations into any oceanfront units at the WestinKaanapali Ocean Resort Villas South and North.

One question I have is this though. I understand the idea of timeshares in the sense that there are 24 OFD units at WKORV, and 52 weeks, so, 1248 total booking slots. Nice and simple.

However, with Abound, there can be millions of points. What stops Abound customers from booking all the OFD units, and a "week owner" can never actually get a place. Shouldn't it be guaranteed that of the 1248 available weeks, that you MUST be able to get one of them for a Floating week timeshare?

Seems like it's an opportunity (with Abound) for Marriott to basically sell access to units they don't own, and then the owners of those allotments are forced to compete against a huge demand and no longer have a guarantee.

Or, is it that the Abound program owns, for example, 700 of those 1248 total nights in OFD, and as soon as they hit 700, they don't allow any Abound customers to book those units, until one of those unit-week owners books something else (e.g., using StarOptions), thereby freeing up 1 more unit of inventory.

I'd like to understand this. As it seems, depending on how it is setup, the Abound program might have created a huge windfall for Marriott at the expense of owners. As now you are basically at a huge disadvantage over all Abound point owners. They can book "anywhere" as an owner, and you have to fight them to get a booking, and then only what's "left over" at 8 month out is available (inferior views, due to timestamps, etc).

Thanks!

 

[vacationtime1]

Think: separate inventory pools. If all OFD units are owned by individuals (which is fairly close to reality), Abound does not have access to those weeks unless/until an owner elects points for their week. So there is a week for every deeded owner (perhaps not the week they want, however).

Your observation about millions of Abound points chasing the few available OF units is correct.

 

[baluders]

Think: separate inventory pools. If all OFD units are owned by individuals (which is fairly close to reality), Abound does not have access to those weeks unless/until an owner elects points for their week. So there is a week for every deeded owner (perhaps not the week they want, however).

Your observation about millions of Abound points chasing the few available OF units is correct.

Ok, that is helpful. Abound has N weeks, and they, like any owner, can book. Once they exhaust their inventory, they can't book anymore unless an owner releases new inventory (through StarOptions conversation).

Seems like there is still a downside, but that's life. The downside being that, in a pure weeks-based system, there are max 1248 individual owners of OFD units. The likelihood of a lot of them wanting a particular (non-special) week of the year is pretty low. So, you are only competing (at midnight) with max 1247 others. Now that Abound has "some inventory" in that pool, and opens up that inventory for booking to everyone in the Abound program, you are competing against potentially thousands of more people.

Yes, you will very likely eventually 'get a week', but you might have a harder time getting the one you want.

Have people experienced this? Since Abound, it is harder to book your weeks, or at least harder at certain points in the year? For myself, I'd only ever be interested in October - May bookings, ideally Nov/Dec or Feb/March.

 

[vacationtime1]

We now go to Maui when the weather is bad at home -- Nov/Dec and Jan/Feb. We have had little trouble getting the weeks that we want (and the trouble we have had is mostly frustration at Marriott's lousy online reservation system). But I am always on the computer at the stroke of midnight to maximize the likelihood of getting what I want.

Non-holiday weeks in November and December are low season on Maui. February and March include whale season, Presidents' week, and spring break so they are less certain. You can hedge your bets by trying to get the Feb/Mar reservation a year in advance with the Nov/Dec available as a fallback.

 

[pchung6]

I had no problem book the OF at 12 months until last year. Currently you might even experience issues booking your home resort week at 12 months due to very poor Marriott online system. It is suspected Marriott purposely making the increase of difficulty to Vistana/Westin/Sheraton owners to encourage the Abound adaption.

 

[YYJMSP]

Owners and VSE had exclusive access to the units through to Aug 2023, since Abound didn't even exist in time to do bookings up to that date.

I'm curious how many people are finding no/less availability for bookings Sep 2023 onwards, when in theory Abound also has access (assuming units owned by Abound and/or units released by owners). Other than IT issues, we had no problem getting until through Aug 2023 -- our next booking window for the Dec 2023 time period is about to open, so we'll see how things go now...

 

[WatsonC2]

Re: EOY, my understanding is that the club fees apply annually although you only have EOY use, so in that regard your total cost is more than 1/2 of what someone pays who owns an annual deed by the amount of the additional years club fee. One other thought.: I would look at what you are considering buying as if you were renting from Marriott (as in a hotel res). With that you can see the savings you would get annually vs your all in maintenance fee/club fee costs and be able to ascertain the years before you break even on the upfront expense. I bought an annual Vistana Villages Bella for like $1000 a few years ago (they go for more now) with the sole intent of using it to trade star options to Maui, which I have done a few times. The savings I had the first year paid for the upfront cost so even if this abound thing messes with availability down the road, I feel I've more than recouped my upfront expense. That being said, I have been thinking about buying a WKORV or WKORVN just to ensure I can still get time at the resort because its awesome. Buy where you want to go people always say...

 

[baluders]

Re: EOY, my understanding is that the club fees apply annually although you only have EOY use, so in that regard your total cost is more than 1/2 of what someone pays who owns an annual deed by the amount of the additional years club fee. One other thought.: I would look at what you are considering buying as if you were renting from Marriott (as in a hotel res). With that you can see the savings you would get annually vs your all in maintenance fee/club fee costs and be able to ascertain the years before you break even on the upfront expense. I bought an annual Vistana Villages Bella for like $1000 a few years ago (they go for more now) with the sole intent of using it to trade star options to Maui, which I have done a few times. The savings I had the first year paid for the upfront cost so even if this abound thing messes with availability down the road, I feel I've more than recouped my upfront expense. That being said, I have been thinking about buying a WKORV or WKORVN just to ensure I can still get time at the resort because its awesome. Buy where you want to go people always say...

My understanding is that StarOptions will only transfer on resale at Mandatory resorts, of which there are only six (WKORV, WKORV-N, Westin Kierland, Westin St. John, Sheraton Vistana, Harborside Atlantis), so basically, if I buy at WKORV/N, I can only go to 4 other places. If I want more flexibility, I need Westin Flex points or to buy Abound points, which seem to not be awesome value for money?

I looked at prices from the other Mandatory resorts to "get the StarOptions", but they didn't seem that much better MF that WKORV, and I wouldn't want to necessarily stay there year-after-year anyway. "Buy where you want to go..."

WKORV-OFD or OFC or WKORV-N/OF have a huge cost per StarPoints premium over IV or OV. And OFD also has a premium on MF. So it is probably always a bad idea to exchange them for StarOptions? Better to rent out the week, or something, and then rent at the other resort.

Is there some smart strategy around purchasing the "cheapest" points at a place you are ok going to (e.g., WKORV-IV) and then (banking or) using the StarOptions to book an OFD or OF. Or can you not use StarOptions to get into the OFD and OF units? e.g., I could buy an IV WKORV, that gives me 148K points, then pick up a cheap Kierland that gives me 30K more points. Now I am above the threshold for OF (176K points). And as long as I am pretty flexible on when I go....

 

[baluders]

My understanding is that StarOptions will only transfer on resale at Mandatory resorts, of which there are only six (WKORV, WKORV-N, Westin Kierland, Westin St. John, Sheraton Vistana, Harborside Atlantis), so basically, if I buy at WKORV/N, I can only go to 4 other places. If I want more flexibility, I need Westin Flex points or to buy Abound points, which seem to not be awesome value for money?

I looked at prices from the other Mandatory resorts to "get the StarOptions", but they didn't seem that much better MF that WKORV, and I wouldn't want to necessarily stay there year-after-year anyway. "Buy where you want to go..."

WKORV-OFD or OFC or WKORV-N/OF have a huge cost per StarPoints premium over IV or OV. And OFD also has a premium on MF. So it is probably always a bad idea to exchange them for StarOptions? Better to rent out the week, or something, and then rent at the other resort.

Is there some smart strategy around purchasing the "cheapest" points at a place you are ok going to (e.g., WKORV-IV) and then (banking or) using the StarOptions to book an OFD or OF. Or can you not use StarOptions to get into the OFD and OF units? e.g., I could buy an IV WKORV, that gives me 148K points, then pick up a cheap Kierland that gives me 30K more points. Now I am above the threshold for OF (176K points). And as long as I am pretty flexible on when I go....

Now I realize I might have missed something. I can buy from any of the Mandatory resorts (6 of them) and then go to any StarOption resort (including voluntary ones), so I have a lot of options for using those StarOptions. However, that doesn't change the calculus that an OFD or OFC is probably a bad value in StarOptions vs. rent or personal usage due to high MF and upfront cost.

 

[WatsonC2]

My understanding is that StarOptions will only transfer on resale at Mandatory resorts, of which there are only six (WKORV, WKORV-N, Westin Kierland, Westin St. John, Sheraton Vistana, Harborside Atlantis), so basically, if I buy at WKORV/N, I can only go to 4 other places. If I want more flexibility, I need Westin Flex points or to buy Abound points, which seem to not be awesome value for money?

I looked at prices from the other Mandatory resorts to "get the StarOptions", but they didn't seem that much better MF that WKORV, and I wouldn't want to necessarily stay there year-after-year anyway. "Buy where you want to go..."

WKORV-OFD or OFC or WKORV-N/OF have a huge cost per StarPoints premium over IV or OV. And OFD also has a premium on MF. So it is probably always a bad idea to exchange them for StarOptions? Better to rent out the week, or something, and then rent at the other resort.

Is there some smart strategy around purchasing the "cheapest" points at a place you are ok going to (e.g., WKORV-IV) and then (banking or) using the StarOptions to book an OFD or OF. Or can you not use StarOptions to get into the OFD and OF units? e.g., I could buy an IV WKORV, that gives me 148K points, then pick up a cheap Kierland that gives me 30K more points. Now I am above the threshold for OF (176K points). And as long as I am pretty flexible on when I go....

The maintenance fees at Kierland and Vistana Villages (only Bella and Keywest phases are mandatory there) are a lot cheaper. Its a compromise of upfront cost /maintenance cost vs the ability to book 12 mo out vs 8 mo, really and perhaps the view you desire. Also, I would not buy something with more options than you intend to use. I get 81,000 annually which works well for me. I could have bought a lock off which comes with 95,700 but basically I would be paying maintenance on options I wouldn't be using.

 

[YYJMSP]

The maintenance fees at Kierland and Vistana Villages (only Bella and Keywest phases are mandatory there) are a lot cheaper. Its a compromise of upfront cost /maintenance cost vs the ability to book 12 mo out vs 8 mo, really and perhaps the view you desire. Also, I would not buy something with more options than you intend to use. I get 81,000 annually which works well for me. I could have bought a lock off which comes with 95,700 but basically I would be paying maintenance on options I wouldn't be using.

Depending on what you're trying to trade for, remember 81000 is a week in a 1BR IV or OV at WKORV/N but 95700 gets you an OF unit...

 

[Tucsonadventurer]

So far the strategy of owning at Kierland and staying every year in Hawaii has worked well for us but I'm not sure this will last due to abound. Time will tell. If I were buying now I might just buy in Maui to be sure

 

[capjak]

If you are going to go to Maui at least every other year, buy WKORV North or South Oceanfront. I have never had an issue booking WKORV North Oceanfront, I know friends that do have issues booking their WKORV South OF Deluxe (of course the deluxe is a better unit than the North OF units...but you will pay more MF and upfront for those, and center are even more expensive upfront). I split the lock off for 2 weeks every year since 2008 never an issue, there has also been inventory at 8 months (but they may change) which I use my SVV mandatory to book another 3rd week on Maui. One interesting tidbit is that this year I was also able to book a 1 bedroom WKORVNorth for Feb 2024 using abound points.

Also I would add that if you decide its not for you the Oceanfronts have held their value (even gone up some recently, but expect that to change if we have a recession) if you sell.

 

[baluders]

Thanks for the insights.

To figure out this whole Mandatory thing, I grabbed the cost / options / fees from about 25 different resales at SVV, WKV, WKORV-N and WKORV. I used mainly High/Premium, as the Medium/Low periods seem to be a bad deal (same MFs, lower SO value).

In the end, what I figured out was the following. Correct me if I am missing something.

• For trading, buy WKV.
  • MFs per SO start at the low end of $0.11/SO (1BR Small Platinum), followed by 2BR Premium LO ($0.13).
• SVV isn't worth it for trade based on MFs (basically the same per SO as WKORV/N), but might be a good choice because upfront costs are lower.
• WKORV OFD and OFC are awesome, but bad choices for trading, as the costs/SO are high and MFs (for OFD) are high.

I was originally thinking that WKORV-N OF was the way to go, as it is a good mix between decent MFs and good views, but I'm a little concerned about "getting a bad view or being stuck behind the restaurant" sometimes.

Seems that WKORV OFC or OFD are guaranteed great views every stay, but they come with a $$ premium.

Then if I want to travel to other SVN resorts, just buy an WKV or SVV property for exchanging. Although I was looking at a WKORV OV for exchange, so I'm always "guaranteed a Maui" fallback, but that doesn't seem like that big of a deal to use SOs to book, as long as you're flexible on view.

I didn't factor in resale values at all. Figured the whole "cost of money" thing over 10+ years would basically cancel out any resale value. i.e., reselling for 50% of purchase cost after 10 years basically recuperates the "opportunity cost" of the purchase value (leaving the gain at $0).

Am I missing anything?

 

[Henry M.]

If you buy resale, there will likely be little depreciation, at least at WKORV, where I own. My daughter bought an OV unit there a few years ago for about $13k, and they are now selling for around $19K+. She would actually make a healthy 50% profit if she decided to sell it today. I never thought I'd see the day where a timeshare purchase turned out to be a good financial investment!

 

[WahooWah]

Thanks for the insights.

To figure out this whole Mandatory thing, I grabbed the cost / options / fees from about 25 different resales at SVV, WKV, WKORV-N and WKORV. I used mainly High/Premium, as the Medium/Low periods seem to be a bad deal (same MFs, lower SO value).

In the end, what I figured out was the following. Correct me if I am missing something.

• For trading, buy WKV.
  • MFs per SO start at the low end of $0.11/SO (1BR Small Platinum), followed by 2BR Premium LO ($0.13).
• SVV isn't worth it for trade based on MFs (basically the same per SO as WKORV/N), but might be a good choice because upfront costs are lower.
• WKORV OFD and OFC are awesome, but bad choices for trading, as the costs/SO are high and MFs (for OFD) are high.

I was originally thinking that WKORV-N OF was the way to go, as it is a good mix between decent MFs and good views, but I'm a little concerned about "getting a bad view or being stuck behind the restaurant" sometimes.

Seems that WKORV OFC or OFD are guaranteed great views every stay, but they come with a $$ premium.

Then if I want to travel to other SVN resorts, just buy an WKV or SVV property for exchanging. Although I was looking at a WKORV OV for exchange, so I'm always "guaranteed a Maui" fallback, but that doesn't seem like that big of a deal to use SOs to book, as long as you're flexible on view.

I didn't factor in resale values at all. Figured the whole "cost of money" thing over 10+ years would basically cancel out any resale value. i.e., reselling for 50% of purchase cost after 10 years basically recuperates the "opportunity cost" of the purchase value (leaving the gain at $0).

Am I missing anything?

Yes, you are missing out on life by over analyzing and thinking about this. Owning is cheaper than renting in Maui, period. If you anticipate that you will be coming to Maui a lot and you like the properties, buying resale should be an easy decision. If you can plan 12 months in advance, it is highly unlikely you will have a problem booking at any of the Westin Maui properties for the most desirable times of the year (Feb, March, July). If you overcomplicate it, you will find a reason you shouldn't buy and then you will go through this whole process again when you have to rent the accomodations on your next trip.

 

[WahooWah]

If you buy resale, there will likely be little depreciation, at least at WKORV, where I own. My daughter bought an OV unit there a few years ago for about $13k, and they are now selling for around $19K+. She would actually make a healthy 50% profit if she decided to sell it today. I never thought I'd see the day where a timeshare purchase turned out to be a good financial investment!

She really lucked out. Someone at the ROFR department must have been sick with COVID to let that get through at $13,000.

 

[Henry M.]

It was pre-COVID, and at the time it was low but not a previously unseen price on Redweek. It wasn't that long ago that $15k was the prevailing price.

 

[daviator]

I have owned ocean view at WKORV since the resort opened nearly two decades ago. If you make your reservation a year ahead, you will never get a bad view. If a direct "I'm looking at the ocean and nothing else" view is important to you, buy OF, but for me, it's not worth the extra money.

Even reservations i've made at 8 months, I've had a perfectly acceptable view. The only time I've gotten a lousy view is when I've been using an Encore Package, which is to be expected. So don't think you have to buy OF to have a reliable good view; you just need to plan ahead and make your reservations early (ideally at 12 months exactly.) You'd still need to do that if you owned OF, btw, or you'd likely find the dates you wanted wouldn't be available.

 

[celica7101]

Yes, you are missing out on life by over analyzing and thinking about this.

I don't think this comment is very helpful. Clearly part of the value proposition of timesharing is being able to evaluate the use options and how to maximize their value. Knowing the best way to allocate your dollars to a particular system is part of that.