Why is Marriott Vacations struggling?

[Theseus]

It may appear the concierge is somehow misleading people for gain but in general from my own experience selling Vistana years ago and my friendship with a few current concierges, that is likely not what is happening. They are under extreme pressure from sales/marketing management to meet set penetration rates (book a certain percentage of guests for presentations) and told that people saying they aren't interested in buying is not a valid excuse for not booking them. Why is this? Because a decent percentage of people that do buy ownership go in with the intention that they are not buying anything. The whole philosophy of the sales management is to get the person in front of a sales person and then have them do their job by selling ownership. The old adage "It's a bad workman that blames their tools" comes to mind here. If this sales person fails, they blame the concierge. If they succeed, they claim the success for themselves. In reality, no sales person sells ownership to every prospect nor are they expected to do so. When I was trained, they told us out of 10 prospects, on average 1 or 2 are going to buy no matter what and 2 or 3 are not buying no matter what. Their whole sales approach was focused on converting as many of those middle 5 or 6 prospects to sales as possible. Sales has always been a numbers game so they need to keep feeding people into the process to hit them. Most of the concierges are doing exactly what they've been ordered to do by management to keep the process rolling and keep their jobs.

We’ve only been to one MVC resort (out of 5) this year that had a true concierge service that was helpful as a first time visitor to a new area. With all the others it was all too apparent the concierge sought to get us to an “owner update.” I don’t disparage any of these staff and can’t imagine the pressures upon them. I am, however, critical of the MVC leadership and sales management. Bypassing the concierge desk altogether is now our standard approach as we are a hard pass on any future presentations. This didn’t work for us when we arrived at Lakeshore Reserve as we had to see the concierge for the parking permit to display in our rental vehicle, though I’m happy to report we politely declined (albeit several times) attending a presentation.

Our resort experiences have overall been favorable, but definitely uneven and not up to our initial expectations (we first bought MVC points direct in January 2023). Maintenance fee increases for 2024 and sales hyperbole (aka lies) have dampened our enthusiasm for the MVC product. It is highly unlikely we will increase our status (currently Executive). Ever. We will continue to be unrelenting in declining “owner updates” or other euphemistic sales presentations.

 

[davidvel]

As far as the floating week goes; this is true and less than true for Marriott.

At the very start of the season booking (12 or 13 month), you are guaranteed a week. However thereafter, you are not guaranteed a week.

Before I get all the screams that I am wrong, I am going to spell out the scenario in detail.

First, You pay a maintenance fee for a week. That should be what you pay in order to get a week. You should not have to pay extra for getting that week you already paid for.

At 74 days out, you lose that right to a week. You are not reimbursed for that week, Marriott get the use of that week for any profitable use they may have for it - plus the cost you already paid in. (Renting out for cash, ect.)

But for the period between12 months and 74 days, there may or may not be inventory for you to book. If not, you are SOL - at the price you paid. Marriott, upon request, will try to book you a relevant week via II, (if available, but you have to pay the exchange fees. (I.e. more than you would pay other wise))

Why would this occur? Marriott have the number of weeks owners (and the total number of weeks owned) and allocated exactly that many weeks to the owner's pool. Everybody books their week, right? No problem, right?

But person X booked a week #1 at 12 months. You aren't able to book up front, and want to book week #1 a day later. You are informed that you can only book the least desireable week in the season. Bummer. So you decide to wait awhile to book. At 4 months you decide to book that undesirable week anyways. You check with Marriott and find there are no weeks you can book - period. What happened?

Unbeknownst to you, person X decided to change the reservation to that undesirable week. Week #1, has already passed, with no takers so Marriott rented it out, and since there was a 1-to-1 relationship between the owned weeks, and the amount of weeks allocated, somebody had to lose their week - in the case <you>. (But Marriott would try to book you a week at the resort via II, with <you> paying the exchange fee, and any other resort fees involved.

This isn't just theory, it bit me personally in 2014. I have seen it compained about occasionally in the Marriott threads in the years since.

I know this scenario is possible with seasons that run all year if you wait to book a year-end week, and the only availabel inventory is beggining of year that has been transferred to Marriott at 74 days. However, this is very rare.

Also, I don't follow your example:

But person X booked a week #1 at 12 months. You aren't able to book up front, and want to book week #1 a day later. You are informed that you can only book the least desireable week in the season. Bummer. So you decide to wait awhile to book. At 4 months you decide to book that undesirable week anyways. You check with Marriott and find there are no weeks you can book - period. What happened?

Unbeknownst to you, person X decided to change the reservation to that undesirable week. Week #1, has already passed, with no takers so Marriott rented it out, and since there was a 1-to-1 relationship between the owned weeks, and the amount of weeks allocated, somebody had to lose their week - in the case <you>. (But Marriott would try to book you a week at the resort via II, with <you> paying the exchange fee, and any other resort fees involved.

What week is the undesirable week? What do you mean by "4 months out?" 4 months out from what/when? The only way this scenario plays out is if you wait until after October 15th trying to get a week from then till 12/31 (the year before your season) and the only week "left" was the first week of the year, and Marriott took them from inventory. But this is 2 1/2 months out from that week, not 4 months. And yes you'd almost always get a replacement week, despite losing your gamble.

 

[davidvel]

We’ve only been to one MVC resort (out of 5) this year that had a true concierge service that was helpful as a first time visitor to a new area. With all the others it was all too apparent the concierge sought to get us to an “owner update.” I don’t disparage any of these staff and can’t imagine the pressures upon them. I am, however, critical of the MVC leadership and sales management. Bypassing the concierge desk altogether is now our standard approach as we are a hard pass on any future presentations. This didn’t work for us when we arrived at Lakeshore Reserve as we had to see the concierge for the parking permit to display in our rental vehicle, though I’m happy to report we politely declined (albeit several times) attending a presentation.

Our resort experiences have overall been favorable, but definitely uneven and not up to our initial expectations (we first bought MVC points direct in January 2023). Maintenance fee increases for 2024 and sales hyperbole (aka lies) have dampened our enthusiasm for the MVC product. It is highly unlikely we will increase our status (currently Executive). Ever. We will continue to be unrelenting in declining “owner updates” or other euphemistic sales presentations.

So many stories of relentless body snatchers at MVC. We have never had to say no more than once in any interaction. We are very straightforward and clear that we are not doing a presentation (if we don't want to), without giving any reasons why.

 

[RunCat]

What I put in my post was what they told me during training back in 2015 when I sold at Avon. Gretchen must have changed her tune since then (or left )

I was selling back in 2006/07 and was there when corporate came in and closed the entire sales dept.

 

[CPNY]

Maintenance fees have increased significantly pricing many families and retirees out of the product. And inventory seems to be even harder to get. I used to be able to get most resorts at 13 months out, but now seeing very low availability during the 13 month mark and reading that some resorts have put in place restrictions to booking fewer than 7 days during certain times of the year.

Big problem here is 13 months out. The younger generations aren’t booking the same way anymore. As companies introduce flexible time off, one doesn’t need to plan their vacations a year in advance. I said this for many years. Marriott and the other companies need to drastically change their strategy to appeal to the next generation. People book last minute and inventory needs to be released later not earlier. My views on this have been met with opposition from many in this forum. But I ask, what age range are those who oppose holding back inventory for last minute bookings?

 

[bazzap]

Big problem here is 13 months out. The younger generations aren’t booking the same way anymore. As companies introduce flexible time off, one doesn’t need to plan their vacations a year in advance. I said this for many years. Marriott and the other companies need to drastically change their strategy to appeal to the next generation. People book last minute and inventory needs to be released later not earlier. My views on this have been met with opposition from many in this forum. But I ask, what age range are those who oppose holding back inventory for last minute bookings?

Equally though, one could ask what % of their huge existing loyal owner base prefer / need to book their resorts and their flights (International especially)…etc well in advance, not least for best value.
Any significant later release of inventory would almost certainly alienate many of these.

 

[dougp26364]

Big problem here is 13 months out. The younger generations aren’t booking the same way anymore. As companies introduce flexible time off, one doesn’t need to plan their vacations a year in advance. I said this for many years. Marriott and the other companies need to drastically change their strategy to appeal to the next generation. People book last minute and inventory needs to be released later not earlier. My views on this have been met with opposition from many in this forum. But I ask, what age range are those who oppose holding back inventory for last minute bookings?

I think MVC is walking a line on this one. Many of their owners are like myself, older and have learned to plan. My younger co-workers vacation differently and use their PTO differently. They often have young children and take a day here and a day there to be off for events. Often they never have enough PTO left to take a sick day let alone a vacation. When they do vacation, it’s booked within 60 days and typically renting from a sight like VRBO, not hotel rooms. They have huge student loans, child care expenses and are often looking to buy that first house. They tend to drive newer/nicer cars than I do. With the current price/point of $17.20 (that’s the last I knew), timeshare is definately NOT something they’re remotely interested in buying. I don’t think adjusting release dates will make a difference except to tick off the older owners who have become accustomed to the current product.

 

[Superchief]

I think MVC is walking a line on this one. Many of their owners are like myself, older and have learned to plan. My younger co-workers vacation differently and use their PTO differently. They often have young children and take a day here and a day there to be off for events. Often they never have enough PTO left to take a sick day let alone a vacation. When they do vacation, it’s booked within 60 days and typically renting from a sight like VRBO, not hotel rooms. They have huge student loans, child care expenses and are often looking to buy that first house. They tend to drive newer/nicer cars than I do. With the current price/point of $17.20 (that’s the last I knew), timeshare is definately NOT something they’re remotely interested in buying. I don’t think adjusting release dates will make a difference except to tick off the older owners who have become accustomed to the current product.

Timeshare ownership has always required some advance planning, even prior to the DC point system. The reward for planning ahead is typically better availability and lower prices. This isn't only true for timeshares, but also for air travel, hotels, VRBO, and other travel and lodging options. I don't see why MVC should be expected to penalize the majority of its owners just to satisfy the last minute planners. There is already an option for the discounted 60 day reservations if available, but it requires flexibility in destination.

 

[daviator]

I don’t think this is a generational thing. I never planned travel more than 2-3 months in advance before buying my first timeshare. That forced me to plan stuff a year out, which is still not the way I’d prefer to plan things, but I’ve gotten used to it. I certainly don’t think that people or a certain age like to plan a year out and younger people don’t. I think probably most timeshare owners have learned to plan ahead out of necessity just as I have.

it's one of the downsides of timeshares and always has been.

 

[ljmiii]

Big problem here is 13 months out. The younger generations aren’t booking the same way anymore....I said this for many years. Marriott and the other companies need to drastically change their strategy to appeal to the next generation....But I ask, what age range are those who oppose holding back inventory for last minute bookings?

While the booking options available to the younger generations have expanded to embrace online systems like Airbnb and VRBO in addition to hotels, B&Bs, and local real estate offices, they are booking exactly the same way I did when I was in my late 20s and early 30s - last minute doing whatever felt cool and fun the moment my work schedule allowed me to travel.

But when I was young all I ever needed was a room. I bought my first timeshares after having a family for a few years and discovering the hard way what hotels charged for a beachfront 1BR suite in Hawaii and what Disney wanted for a 2BR villa while taking a 'three generations' vacation to WDW. And not too long after I knew exactly when I would be travelling to warm weather destinations - President's Week, Easter Week, and/or Christmas/New Years - so I had no problem booking a year in advance.

But MVC has an easy fix for this because there already exists an enormous system of more or less 'last minute' accommodations suitable for singles and couples - Marriott International. All they have to do is allow Abound points to be converted to Bonvoy points 'at will' (as salesweasels have been promising for some time). Knowledgeable TUGers may complain about the current conversion rate...but knowledgeable TUGers haven't stopped MVC from making sales before.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Which is the more owner friendly timeshare week set?

I find HGVC more owner friendly, but at the cost of fewer locations.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Which is the more owner friendly timeshare week set0

It duplicated 3 more times with one enter key. Go figure.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I know this scenario is possible with seasons that run all year if you wait to book a year-end week, and the only availabel inventory is beggining of year that has been transferred to Marriott at 74 days. However, this is very rare.

Also, I don't follow your example:

What week is the undesirable week? What do you mean by "4 months out?" 4 months out from what/when? The only way this scenario plays out is if you wait until after October 15th trying to get a week from then till 12/31 (the year before your season) and the only week "left" was the first week of the year, and Marriott took them from inventory. But this is 2 1/2 months out from that week, not 4 months. And yes you'd almost always get a replacement week, despite losing your gamble.

The week was in mid August. I'm a south Texan and used to heat and humidity, but Florida in August suits me too darned well. . .

I had a a timeshare with a split Platinum season. Some years 3 different splits - Winter, Summer and occasionally week 53, and in the same booking year. If you tried for week 53, and didn't get it, you had already passed all the earlier windows. This was/is Royal Palms.

 

[Dean]

Big problem here is 13 months out. The younger generations aren’t booking the same way anymore. As companies introduce flexible time off, one doesn’t need to plan their vacations a year in advance. I said this for many years. Marriott and the other companies need to drastically change their strategy to appeal to the next generation. People book last minute and inventory needs to be released later not earlier. My views on this have been met with opposition from many in this forum. But I ask, what age range are those who oppose holding back inventory for last minute bookings?

Hotels and resorts tend to have excess inventory to deal with this issue. They also have dynamic pricing to then move or limit that inventory. The younger generation seems to be able to plan for things that require such as well. If there's an event they want to attend and it sells out a year in advance, they tend to plan if it's important to them. I don't see a workable solution for this issue with timeshares. No matter when any release occurs, it won't be sitting there open for when someone gets a whim. In order for that to happen, they'd have to hold unsold inventory for this purpose. They could do so and just charge more but I don't see that happening.

I don’t think this is a generational thing. I never planned travel more than 2-3 months in advance before buying my first timeshare. That forced me to plan stuff a year out, which is still not the way I’d prefer to plan things, but I’ve gotten used to it. I certainly don’t think that people or a certain age like to plan a year out and younger people don’t. I think probably most timeshare owners have learned to plan ahead out of necessity just as I have.

it's one of the downsides of timeshares and always has been.

I agree. While I'm a planner by nature, timesharing has shaped my planning to get the most benefit and options from the various systems.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Big problem here is 13 months out. The younger generations aren’t booking the same way anymore. As companies introduce flexible time off, one doesn’t need to plan their vacations a year in advance. I said this for many years. Marriott and the other companies need to drastically change their strategy to appeal to the next generation. People book last minute and inventory needs to be released later not earlier. My views on this have been met with opposition from many in this forum. But I ask, what age range are those who oppose holding back inventory for last minute bookings?

A timeshare is not a hotel room. It is not designed to book at the last minute, nor to be booked for a night or two. That's the reason why they are cheaper, they are the giant, economy size of vacations.

 

[Hindsite]

But I ask, what age range are those who oppose holding back inventory for last minute bookings?

I see a load of retirees, home schoolers and flexible workers getting stonking deals from last minute (sub 60 days) availability both within Abound and II. It could be one area where the rental market helps as people who have made booking and not rented them either dump them back into inventory or into II.
It may be that we don't see users who have that pattern of usage represented on TUG as much as the longer term planners.
I can't wrap my mind round how inventory could be deliberately held back to close to its "use by" date without adding cost and risk to the system, but if that could be solved it would be interesting to see how well it worked.

 

[bazzap]

While the booking options available to the younger generations have expanded to embrace online systems like Airbnb and VRBO in addition to hotels, B&Bs, and local real estate offices, they are booking exactly the same way I did when I was in my late 20s and early 30s - last minute doing whatever felt cool and fun the moment my work schedule allowed me to travel.

But when I was young all I ever needed was a room. I bought my first timeshares after having a family for a few years and discovering the hard way what hotels charged for a beachfront 1BR suite in Hawaii and what Disney wanted for a 2BR villa while taking a 'three generations' vacation to WDW. And not too long after I knew exactly when I would be travelling to warm weather destinations - President's Week, Easter Week, and/or Christmas/New Years - so I had no problem booking a year in advance.

But MVC has an easy fix for this because there already exists an enormous system of more or less 'last minute' accommodations suitable for singles and couples - Marriott International. All they have to do is allow Abound points to be converted to Bonvoy points 'at will' (as salesweasels have been promising for some time). Knowledgeable TUGers may complain about the current conversion rate...but knowledgeable TUGers haven't stopped MVC from making sales before.

Definitely, the long proposed opening up of the full Marriott International portfolio of hotels / resorts (or at least a much larger percentage of it than currently) to Abound Points bookings could go a long way towards addressing the requirements of the many who do not want to plan their trips well in advance.
Also, although not the best use of Points, it would also help those of us not living in the US by offering very many new accommodation options and locations Worldwide.

 

[Dean]

Definitely, the long proposed opening up of the full Marriott International portfolio of hotels / resorts (or at least a much larger percentage of it than currently) to Abound Points bookings could go a long way towards addressing the requirements of the many who do not want to plan their trips well in advance.
Also, although not the best use of Points, it would also help those of us not living in the US by offering very many new accommodation options and locations Worldwide.

Barry, I'm not sure that would help that much given the reduced value in this situation. Such items like Cruies and tours tend to return a value of half the price of fees or less. One thing they could do would be to expand the last minute options within MVC. Maybe a cash rental option under 60 days and/or a more dynamic points reduction.

 

[Ken555]

Maybe a cash rental option under 60 days and/or a more dynamic points reduction.

IIRC, for at least the Vistana properties, Marriott has the right to rent available units at less than 60 days without any fees paid to the HOA. They’ve been doing this all along, and it’s just sold like a regular hotel on their hotel site. I would expect they wouldn’t change this immensely profitable revenue source for owners.


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[incantata]

As we rent out our Marriott Marbella 2-bdrm unit every year, it is very important to us to get a reservation on the last June start date . So I always call the minute reservations open. I would not be happy if a portion of available weeks had a later release.

 

[Dean]

IIRC, for at least the Vistana properties, Marriott has the right to rent available units at less than 60 days without any fees paid to the HOA. They’ve been doing this all along, and it’s just sold like a regular hotel on their hotel site. I would expect they wouldn’t change this immensely profitable revenue source for owners.


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I am aware but I do think there are opportunities to change things around if they so chose and plan. It'd likely require an expansion of the system even further, esp for more urban (Pulse) options. The question was how to make the option more appealing to a younger demographic that tended to book more last minute and this could be an opportunity to do just that. Maybe at 4 months instead of 2 without impacting your noted deterrent. If they can sell to a broader population, that is likely far more lucrative than the rentals anyway, esp by the time they pay the fees to Abound. It is worth noting that they tried years ago to appeal to a younger audience who has less means with the Horizon's project and it failed miserably. IMO there are demonstrable reasons it failed that are on them but they might be gun shy trying something different. Personally I'd prefer less change over more change as I've learned that every change has winners and losers but sometimes I'm the loser.

 

[DRH90277]

IIRC, for at least the Vistana properties, Marriott has the right to rent available units at less than 60 days without any fees paid to the HOA. They’ve been doing this all along, and it’s just sold like a regular hotel on their hotel site. I would expect they wouldn’t change this immensely profitable revenue source for owners.


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Ok don't like it. But, is the resort reimbursed for cleaning costs plus an upcharge of say $100/night for wear and tear on the facilities. Remember the MVC motto, an upcharge for everything - just like the inn keeper song in the play Les Misérables.

 

[Ken555]

Ok don't like it. But, is the resort reimbursed for cleaning costs plus an upcharge of say $100/night for wear and tear on the facilities. Remember the MVC motto, an upcharge for everything - just like the inn keeper song in the play Les Misérables.

You must be joking. We've been asking the cleaning question for years and I don't believe it's ever been answered with certainty.

 

[Superchief]

You must be joking. We've been asking the cleaning question for years and I don't believe it's ever been answered with certainty.

I highly doubt that MVC or Marriott Hotels are contributing their fair share for the higher housekeeping and wear and tear caused by their rentals, especially for 1-2 night stays. I realize that payroll costs are increasing, but the housekeeping component of MF's have been increasing at a higher than inflation rate for several years.

 

[bazzap]

Barry, I'm not sure that would help that much given the reduced value in this situation. Such items like Cruies and tours tend to return a value of half the price of fees or less. One thing they could do would be to expand the last minute options within MVC. Maybe a cash rental option under 60 days and/or a more dynamic points reduction.

I suspect that a fair number of us Owners in Europe might use this option, even with the reduced value, because it could give us access to many new appealing destinations with lower cost short haul flights and especially when electing 2 and 3 Bed MVC resorts for Points to book 1 Bed MI hotels in locations we are keen to visit the value could still be there.
Your suggestion of expanding last minute options, maybe with cash rental, could also be helpful, but I very much hope not by any deliberate plan to hold back inventory release.