What did you learn in the process of becoming a timeshare expert? How to maximize your investment....

[rjwehr]

I wouldn't consider myself an expert. In the late 1980's, my parents and their friends each bought a timeshare. Unfortunately, my parent's friends got laid-off a year later and could not afford their unit. They offered it to my parents if they would pay off the last $1000 on the loan. Since my parents didn’t want it, I ended up with it for $1K. (I was the only college student I knew who owned a timeshare.) Using RCI made for great college road trips. I think exchanges were $75 at that time.

That first purchase was an eye-opening experience about the resale market. Since then, we have bought and sold many units. We only buy resale and are very picky about what we buy. (For us, weeks work better than points.) We’ve been on many great vacations. (Mexico, Florida, California, Vegas, etc.) Ironically, despite using timeshares over the last 30+ years, I have still never been to a resort sales presentation. I never felt like I owed them any time on my vacation.

 

[TravelTime]

I never understood the theory of many Tuggers that you rent out your timeshares and then you are vacationing for free. You could make this argument with anything. For example, you could argue that you bought stock and it went up so then you are vacationing for free or better yet, buying a house for free or buying a car for free, etc. Seems to me like buying good stocks and other real investments is a better way to travel for “free.” What about renting a house for above expenses, are you traveling for free with the profit? No one says they are traveling for free in my examples. So why does anyone think they are traveling for free when they rent out something so valueless like a timeshare. In addition, you still have to cover MFs, you should be paying taxes on the gains if it is a business, and it is a job if you really want to earn enough “profit” on timeshare rentals.

 

[Eric B]

I never understood the theory of many Tuggers that you rent out your timeshares and then you are vacationing for free. You could make this argument with anything. For example, you could argue that you bought stock and it went up so then you are vacationing for free or better yet, buying a house for free or buying a car for free, etc. Seems to me like buying good stocks and other real investments is a better way to travel for “free.” What about renting a house for above expenses, are you traveling for free with the profit? No one says they are traveling for free in my examples. So why does anyone think they are traveling for free when they rent out something so valueless like a timeshare. In addition, you still have to cover MFs, you should be paying taxes on the gains if it is a business, and it is a job if you really want to earn enough “profit” on timeshare rentals.

If you look at things solely through the lens of ROI there's something to be said for that. Many people don't. I wouldn't rain on their parades, though - if they want to look at it that way it doesn't bother me at all.

My perspective on the subject is that through owning a variety of timeshares I am able to control my options on where I travel and stay in resorts I like. I'm nearing retirement and plan to join the folks that don't like spending their winters in cold places. I do rent out some of the TS I own and it helps cover the costs. I also rent out some houses I've acquired over the years. About ten years ago I installed some solar power systems where I live and occasionally get a check in the mail for renewable energy certificates they generate that my State forces the power companies to buy. The amount of effort I put into those things is minor, so it does feel like free money. When it's something as "valueless [as] a timeshare," the return on capital for a resale one is actually pretty good; I have a couple I got free from Timeshare Nation that I get a few hundred dollars over my MFs each year on. It's tough to calculate a P/E ratio that's comparable to one for a security to make a real good judgement on which is a better investment because of the hedonic benefits of being able to decide to just vacation there for a week with the TS along with the price being zero. YMMV is an appropriate thought because an awful lot of people have different values when it comes to a wide variety of things.

 

[TravelTime]

If you look at things solely through the lens of ROI there's something to be said for that. Many people don't. I wouldn't rain on their parades, though - if they want to look at it that way it doesn't bother me at all.

My perspective on the subject is that through owning a variety of timeshares I am able to control my options on where I travel and stay in resorts I like. I'm nearing retirement and plan to join the folks that don't like spending their winters in cold places. I do rent out some of the TS I own and it helps cover the costs. I also rent out some houses I've acquired over the years. About ten years ago I installed some solar power systems where I live and occasionally get a check in the mail for renewable energy certificates they generate that my State forces the power companies to buy. The amount of effort I put into those things is minor, so it does feel like free money. When it's something as "valueless [as] a timeshare," the return on capital for a resale one is actually pretty good; I have a couple I got free from Timeshare Nation that I get a few hundred dollars over my MFs each year on. It's tough to calculate a P/E ratio that's comparable to one for a security to make a real good judgement on which is a better investment because of the hedonic benefits of being able to decide to just vacation there for a week with the TS along with the price being zero. YMMV is an appropriate thought because an awful lot of people have different values when it comes to a wide variety of things.

I understand the rationale of why people only compare timeshares to timeshares to identify ROI on timeshares. Renting out a timeshare might be comparable to owning a car and driving for Uber. From this POV, the car might be viewed as free because the extra income from Uber covers all the car expenses and monthly payment. I do not see things this way but many people only compare one “asset” class to the same “asset” class. I could look at my entire life as free looking at it from one asset class to a different asset class.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I never understood the theory of many Tuggers that you rent out your timeshares and then you are vacationing for free. You could make this argument with anything. For example, you could argue that you bought stock and it went up so then you are vacationing for free or better yet, buying a house for free or buying a car for free, etc. Seems to me like buying good stocks and other real investments is a better way to travel for “free.” What about renting a house for above expenses, are you traveling for free with the profit? No one says they are traveling for free in my examples. So why does anyone think they are traveling for free when they rent out something so valueless like a timeshare. In addition, you still have to cover MFs, you should be paying taxes on the gains if it is a business, and it is a job if you really want to earn enough “profit” on timeshare rentals.

This is a broad way to look at it but it is also not uncommon in business to understand the ROI of a particular asset.

The best way I think of a TS as "free" is buying a 2 (or 3) bdrm lockoff and then always renting out the lockoff to cover MF. Some Tuggers own 3 bdrm units at MOC and use them this way. Other than a bit of effort to rent, your other half of the lockoff is free. Same goes for our ST vacation home. Our rentals cover the cost of property taxes and build a reserve for renovations. So when we visit, it is free to us. If we didn't rent we would need to pay for all of these expense. They key in all of these transactions is location, location, and rental income/MF.

IMHO...Renting a TS lockoff once a year in your slippers is not the same effort as driving UBer. With rising MF and the transition to points programs it is harder to find profitable TS intervals than owning other assets e.g. a vacation rental home appreciates in value, provides a full write-off for your property taxes (because businesses are not limited by the 10k SALT limit) but ties up more of your capital. We have a management company who manages renters and takes a cut of the rentals so not much effort at all. However, we were reminded recently as we spent 3 hours deep cleaning and maintaining our rental home at the end of a visit that timeshares are nice because they take care of all the maintenance and cleaning so it truly feels like a vacation. Both have pros and cons.

 

[Eric B]

I understand the rationale of why people only compare timeshares to timeshares to identify ROI on timeshares. Renting out a timeshare might be comparable to owning a car and driving for Uber. From this POV, the car might be viewed as free because the extra income from Uber covers all the car expenses and monthly payment. I do not see things this way but many people only compare one “asset” class to the same “asset” class. I could look at my entire life as free looking at it from one asset class to a different asset class.

Happy to proceed down that path - if you ignore all the labor involved in getting paid for doing something like driving people around for Uber, everything is free. Woo hoo! It doesn't really seem like a useful interpretation of life, though.

 

[Clifbell]

This is a broad way to look at it but it is also not uncommon in business to understand the ROI of a particular asset.

The best way I think of a TS as "free" is buying a 2 (or 3) bdrm lockoff and then always renting out the lockoff to cover MF. Some Tuggers own 3 bdrm units at MOC and use them this way. Other than a bit of effort to rent, your other half of the lockoff is free. Same goes for our ST vacation home. Our rentals cover the cost of property taxes and build a reserve for renovations. So when we visit, it is free to us. If we didn't rent we would need to pay for all of these expense. They key in all of these transactions is location, location, and rental income/MF.

IMHO...Renting a TS lockoff once a year in your slippers is not the same effort as driving UBer. With rising MF and the transition to points programs it is harder to find profitable TS intervals than owning other assets e.g. a vacation rental home appreciates in value, provides a full write-off for your property taxes (because businesses are not limited by the 10k SALT limit) but ties up more of your capital. We have a management company who manages renters and takes a cut of the rentals so not much effort at all. However, we were reminded recently as we spent 3 hours deep cleaning and maintaining our rental home at the end of a visit that timeshares are nice because they take care of all the maintenance and cleaning so it truly feels like a vacation. Both have pros and cons.

This is a very good discussion. I feel very fortunate to have a lot of timeshares with many possible options. I am interested in renting out my timeshares because I want the flexibility to use them a lot or to rent them out when I want to do something else. I do agree that is "another job", but it is how I choose to continue to improve my use of my timeshares that gives me the most flexibility.

I feel lucky that this is a "job" I have. I recently retired and I have been active in investing in real estate in addition to timeshares. I decided to travel full time and rent out my house, because I thought it was easier to have someone manage my property than for me to worry about my empty house (or burden my friends and neighbors. I really enjoyed the freedom of that travel and will do it again. I am in the process of investing in real estate where I will have my house set up as an airbnb when I travel. I will set aside a small room / closet for my personal items and the rest of the house I will rent out when I travel.

And yes, they are all jobs. But I am enjoying these jobs. For some, it would be too much of a chore (and some days it is for me also). I have property manager for my full time rentals that charge fees. And I have property managers for my short term rentals (they call them maintenance fees). My rents cover the mortgage and fees for my long term rentals. I am experimenting with renting out my timeshares to see if the tradeoff is worth it. I see timeshares as just another real estate investment with a different set of rules. I own some properties with HOA's that have restrictions too. The one difference is that timeshares will never appreciate in value (unless maybe buying them used when they were cheap). But the more I use my timeshares, the less I pay compared to those who rent. And I love using my timeshares.

I feel so lucky... I can choose to stay in such wonderful places because of my timeshares. It is so much cheaper than renting a condo. And if I rent some of them out to pay my maintenance fees, then that just gives me another choice. I agree with everyone that each choice has consequences and can be seen as a job. The diversity of how each of us uses the timeshare has helped me learn about different opportunities. I've learned so much from other people's perspectives. All of the people in this community have contributed to my luck. Who knows, maybe I will drive Uber some day... I have had great conversations with uber drivers.

Life is a "single use" event. Lots of good views on how to use that event.

 

[Clifbell]

We signed up for WorldMark presentation tomorrow. The Chief Of Staff was suffuciently attracted by the freebies to accept the invitation. No one was more surprised than I was.

— Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Well ... You teased us with the fact you were attending the presentation... I certainly would like to hear how it went and I suspect others would also.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Freebies were $100 gift card plus chit said to be good for a 7-night resort reservation from an RCI subsidiary within the next year or so. That could be OK if we figure out how to work it.

Actual sales pitch was about the quickest & most low-key of any we’ve attended. We showed up at 11AM & were out of there at 12:19 PM.

The guy across the little table quickly sized us up as non-buyers but explained the $18,000 product anyway, even showing us how to get out of it in 3 years with no refund if we don’t like it. Follow-up person offered us 2 trial package options that we declined, & that was that. Next stop was the freebies desk.

— Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[The Colorado Kid]

Freebies were $100 gift card plus chit said to be good for a 7-night resort reservation from an RCI subsidiary within the next year or so. That could be OK if we figure out how to work it.

Actual sales pitch was about the quickest & most low-key of any we’ve attended. We showed up at 11AM & were out of there at 12:19 PM.

The guy across the little table quickly sized us up as non-buyers but explained the $18,000 product anyway, even showing us how to get out of it in 3 years with no refund if we don’t like it. Follow-up person offered us 2 trial package options that we declined, & that was that. Next stop was the freebies desk.

— Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Was the get-out-in-three a legit strategy?

 

[AwayWeGo]

Was the get-out-in-three a legit strategy?

No refund on $18,000 purchase might be legit but seems to me it would be less trouble just to run the cash through the shredder.

— Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Eric B]

No refund on $18,000 purchase might be legit but seems to me it would be less trouble just to run the cash through the shredder.

— Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

I've got a really nice cross-cut one and plenty of lubricating oil for it if you'd like to just ship the cash to me....

 

[bogey21]

It has been a depreciating market ever since I bought my first TimeShare (Marriott Sabal Palms) in the 80s. Over the years I have owned somewhere between 35 and 40. Three of my Marriotts were bought from Marriott. Everything else was resale. Everything I owned was either a Fixed or Floating Week. What saved me from large losses was selling as soon as possible after deciding to move on to something else. I made money on some and minimized losses on most of the others...

An old Wall Street Bond Trader once told me "Your best loss is your first loss". I adapted his philosophy to my TimeShare Weeks...

George

 

[elysium5]

By expert I mean achieving your goal.... Maybe that was being able to take two weeks of vacation a year. For me, that meant being able to live full time in a timeshare. I did that for 7 months in 2021 and will do it for shorter periods in 2022.

How long did it take you to become an expert? I feel like I'm a miles and points expert at this point - that took a couple of years, But I'm newish to timeshare

 

[MattnTricia]

Timeshares have been a 20+ year journey for me and have served me and my family well over the years.

There wasn't an answer that really fit my situation so I chose other + buying used. Although at different times in our journey almost every answer was at least partially true.

Fortunately for me my journey did start with a developer but I did not purchase so I was one of the lucky ones.
Despite the massive attraction to the Ridge in South Lake Tahoe their economics (fuzzy math) did not make sense to me so I passed.

My memory is a little fuzzy but we somehow we found a local timeshare resellers in Tahoe and bought our first unit in a 1 bed swing Ridge View in Tahoe sometime later. Although we enjoyed the Ridge View and more importantly bonus time it didn't take us long to realize we had the wrong season for our future travel goals as the unit didn't trade all that well with II and exchanges were very challenging. We liked timeshares but needed a change without breaking the bank.

A few years later a conversation in a resort hot tub led me to TUG and the rest is history. We currently own 11 HGVC timeshare weeks all bought resale.

Over the years we have played around with Diamond, Worldmark, and Disney. We even bought Disney from the Developer.
We have moved on from all of those endeavor's and even managed to break even with the DVC purchase if you factor in rental income during our ownership.

We learned something from all of these.
Diamond - Super High Fees - Quality less than HGVC - frustrating reservation system
Worldmark - wanted to love it since we were in California but it just didn't love us. It did exchange well though.
DVC - Amazing rental and was good for my family but just too expensive on a per week basis.

For us the most important thing we learned was that chasing the exchange game is very challenging when you have to have specific weeks due to school / work schedules. Thus we changed our mindset from relying on exchange companies to just utilizing our asset in HGVC to go where ever we wanted when we wanted through trades, barters, exchanges. This allowed us to use places like redweek to find exactly the location, resort and week we wanted and not rely on the exchange companies.

From Day 1 HGVC has been the best investment we have ever made. We are 10 years from retirement and there is no doubt HGVC will be a big part of our long term plan. I have always envied a friend of mine who spent 30-60 days a year at Lagoon Tower during his Chicago winters. in a 1 bedroom Ocean View.

As with everything life does change though and we just invested in our next timeshare trial by purchasing an SVV Mandatory 81k week to get us in to the Vistana System and also a Welk Platinum package to get us in to their program. Both of these were bought to see how the merger is going to go with MVC/Hyatt/Vistana/Welk and open up some availability to use in the interim. Both were low $ purchases and may end up being very short term purchases depending on how it goes.

Maybe 10 years ago I was an expert. Today I am just a timeshare owner who enjoys a happy and healthy "obsession" with timeshares.

 

[NiteMaire]

Like some, I'll answer a slightly different question. Here a link to a post where I list 10 things I learned from TUG:

1000th Post: 10 Things I've Learned from TUG

This is my 1000th post so I thought I’d share some things I’ve learned from TUG over the years. Since it’s long, I’ll list the topics up front: 1. Rescind, research, resale (in almost all cases), 2. Timeshare “systems”, 3. Points vs weeks, 4. Exchange companies, 5. Trade vs buy where you want...

tugbbs.com

If I had to answer, I'd probably say "other". One of the biggest things I learned is that buying a trader in an "overbuilt" location can work if you own a great week (#5 and bonus area in my post). If you read the post, you'll see some phenomenal trades we've had with a non-major resort in an overbuilt location. If you desire to trade, there are gems out there with relatively low MFs; The Colonies at Williamsburg is one of those.

ETA: I also learned that TS can be an affordable way to vacation. We've been able to vacation in several places that we otherwise would not have vacationed. In 2019 we vacationed 3 weeks in Hawaii. Grand total with fees (MFs, exchange fees, etc.) was $2500 for 2 2BRs (Marriott) and 1 1BR (Westin). I looked up what it would have cost to stay in the same room size during the same week...$11,000! We definitely would not have taken the vacations for that price.

 

[geist1223]

There can be valid reasons to buy from the Developer.

With Worldmark the main reason was the ability to Book directly into Wyndham (formerly Worldmark) South Pacific. We have been Down Under 4 times in about 10 years. From 2 to 4 weeks. There would have been extra costs and worry, etc if we had to rely upon trading through RCI or II and getting weeks in a row in a certain order. But we can Book directly at 10 months out. Now Wyndham South Pacific owns parts of several Resorts in Europe. It is true that you can use WM+A Credits to Book Wyndhm South Pacific but there are no new WM+A Credits since November 2006.

With DRI it is the ability to Book into all DRI Collections. Within a couple weeks of first joining (Hawaii Collection now Cabo Azul) we Booked 2 consecutive weeks in France.

 

[Jan M.]

Timeshares shouldn't be viewed as an investment; they're an optional expense. The money you spend to acquire your timeshare(s), the ensuing maintenance fees and exchange fees should be categorized as entertainment/vacation expense.

Of course some people do manage to offset those expenses by renting out stays but you should never go into owning timeshares with that expectation. There's so many things that can go wrong with that plan. For example right now there are quite a few Wyndham owners who have found that out. If renting out stays to cover your expenses is the only way you can afford to own or want to own, then you shouldn't own. Also some people buy their timeshares cheap and later sell them for more than they paid. But again that's not something you can or should count on.

 

[elysium5]

For us the most important thing we learned was that chasing the exchange game is very challenging when you have to have specific weeks due to school / work schedules. Thus we changed our mindset from relying on exchange companies to just utilizing our asset in HGVC to go where ever we wanted when we wanted through trades, barters, exchanges. This allowed us to use places like redweek to find exactly the location, resort and week we wanted and not rely on the exchange companies.

How do you exchange on Redweek? Is it different to RCI/II?

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I found that timeshares let me Champaign on a beer budget.

You see, I only have a beer budget. (No dig at those richer that me, just descriptive.)

I was gifted my first Marriott timeshare - Royal Palms, Hurricane Season - by my rich aunt and uncle. (They wanted to downsize their timeshare holdings.) They had invited me once in 1992, and I had liked it. This was around 2004. I had (and still have) no interest in theme parks, but it was a nice getaway. In 2012, I bought an aftermarket Platinum Royal Palms for winter (cost $997 plus closing costs). I could convert the hurricane season week to points, and did so, usually going to Grand Vista in May. (a points quirk, May in Grand Vista was cheaper pointswise than the points I got for Royal Palms hurricane season.) Anyways, the points system really bit on one week owners availability (at least as far as my trying to get particular weeks - a long and unpleasant story. . . ), so I got fed up and sold both of them back to Marriott (for a profit!)

So I had a little money and liked timeshares. I had also spent 2 months on the Big Island in the winter of 1999/2000. So I started researching TUG about timeshares on the Big Island. The best quality at the time was HGVC, but most of them had ROFR. Bay Club did not. I researched further. To buy Bay Club outright or to buy non-ROFR HGVC in Las Vegas and point in? At the time, the Vegas option had a MF differential payback of around 10 years, and required 10K or so upfront. Buying outright had the advantage of HGVC 3 month window for owners only. In addition, it was an affiliate, who meant I could get the upkeep of a HGVC, without paying the cost of HGVC ownership. Of course I wouldn't get the HGVC points system access, but that didn't bother me, as I bought these timeshares as a surrogate second home. So I started looking for cheap Bay Club properties. even at that, I was being picky. TUG people told me that the best ones were on the top floor, and I wanted the largest 2 BDR unit only. So I slowly built my portfolio of A penthouse units. I now have 3 even/ 4 odd weeks. (Upfront costs total - just under $13,000.)

Sadly, COVID has stomped on my winter vacationing (my last one was Jan 2020). Still, hope springs eternal, 2023 maybe.

Three weeks in Hawaii, for $250 a night, plus airfare and rental car. My big luxury. . .