Westin St John [Master Thread] - Part 2 (June 2014 and forward)

[dewdrops]

I think the VI Tourism commissioner of a territory dependent upon tourism, fell on her protocol sword. Would have been better to have f/u statement from the Port commissioner, who presumably has jurisdiction over the port rules and security staff. Commissioner Nicholas-Doty also spun it that the 35 people hadn't gone to a "24 hour visitor centers" to register for evacuation. Highly improbable those visitor centers were open on the day of the Marriott ferry, 2 days after Irma struck and knocked out 90% of the power grid and made those hilly narrow roads an obstacle endurance course.

Marriott's communications on the matter was incomplete. They explained only people on manifest could board, but they created the manifest. No explanation from them or VI officials of what attempts Marriott staff on the ground could or could not do to amend the manifest to include those 35 people.

It's commendable how Marriott took care of its guests. If they had been able to get those 35 people on board the ferry too, they would have had a great good-will story. As it is, their explanations were met with mixed reviews and criticism. Unfair or not, people do hold corporations to higher standards than individuals.

Other reports had relief and evacuation assistance coming to St Thomas & St John on Saturday, the day after the Marriott ferry left. Westin helped its guests evacuate on the Saturday too. The 35 non-Marriott guests on St Thomas were able to evacuate on cruise ships 3-4 days later.

Kinda waiting for WaPO and ABC News who couldn't wait to jump out with the incomplete news to print a retraction or followup. Oh no... that would be amending the narrative and can't do that. Sigh. As for the guests who posted the videos and pictures and so quick to blame Marriott for pulling away, they TOO owe Marriott an apology for bad mouthing them. Hey, I'm no corporate shill, nor all for the "big" guy/gal. But just saying, to print/run such one sided news... even some of the posters here who read about it had more common sense than these so called reporters/editors and said, there has got to be more to the story, seems to be FACTS missing. Yes, how we have forgotten about FACTS.

As for the manifest, in this day and age of terrorism and what not, the rules are probably a lot stricter (even lacking common sense) and its unfortunate. I think Marriott did say the Port told them they had limited time and had to leave.

Not sure Marriott really also wanted the responsibility of those 35 people. Like a more knowledgeable poster than I posted, 35 is manageable. But what if hundreds starting running over to the boat now? Unintended consequences my friends. And not even sure the 35 would be a good will story, because the next thing you know, the other 350 that were left and not told of the boat will be accusing Marriott or whoever of not notifying them of the opportunity to leave and now they had to suffer. No good deed goes unpunished indeed, perhaps.

In hindsight, maybe what would have been better is if Marriott notified the Port/Officials in charge they were bringing over a boat with 600 seats and then in an orderly fashion, the Port/officials of evac center, etc fill the 600 less whatever seats Marriott took up. But in such rushed situations everyone just trying to do what they can within the "rules" and time constraints.

 

[letsgomets]

I bought an Explorer package in 2016 that gave me two years, through 4/20/18, to make a return visit (5 nights) to the Westin St. John. I reserved it for November, 2017 and called Starwood about it yesterday. Of course they've cancelled the reservation, and they tell me I now have until December 15, 2019 to make my visit. They're not offering a refund. It seems to me a refund should be an option, if they can't offer occupancy between now and 4/20/18. If the shoe were on the other foot, would they have let me postpone my return visit beyond the 4/20/18 expiration date set out in our contract?

P.S. So far American Airlines isn't offering a refund either. Their best offer is I can apply what I paid for our tickets to travel someplace else, but only between now and a date in December 2017 which is the one-year anniversary of the day I bought my tickets to St. Thomas.

This is a great offer! Hard to see how a 20-month extension is unfair. Not sure what you mean about the shoe being on the other foot, but when we visited on an Explorer package (back when it was SVO so I can't speak for Vistana), yes, they were extremely accommodating -- they even opened up blackout/holiday dates for us.

As for AA, a "refund" for an airline is virtually always an offer to change your ticket without any fee. That's what I got when we decided to change plans for a vacation due to Zika concerns (our tickets had been bought before the Zika warnings came about). I thought it was reasonable.

 

[DavidnRobin]

I think the VI Tourism commissioner of a territory dependent upon tourism, fell on her protocol sword. Would have been better to have f/u statement from the Port commissioner, who presumably has jurisdiction over the port rules and security staff. Commissioner Nicholas-Doty also spun it that the 35 people hadn't gone to a "24 hour visitor centers" to register for evacuation. Highly improbable those visitor centers were open on the day of the Marriott ferry, 2 days after Irma struck and knocked out 90% of the power grid and made those hilly narrow roads an obstacle endurance course.

Marriott's communications on the matter was incomplete. They explained only people on manifest could board, but they created the manifest. No explanation from them or VI officials of what attempts Marriott staff on the ground could or could not do to amend the manifest to include those 35 people.

It's commendable how Marriott took care of its guests. If they had been able to get those 35 people on board the ferry too, they would have had a great good-will story. As it is, their explanations were met with mixed reviews and criticism. Unfair or not, people do hold corporations to higher standards than individuals.

Other reports had relief and evacuation assistance coming to St Thomas & St John on Saturday, the day after the Marriott ferry left. Westin helped its guests evacuate on the Saturday too. The 35 non-Marriott guests on St Thomas were able to evacuate on cruise ships 3-4 days later.

Shouldn't Marriott be discussed on Marriott forum? Or maybe on Carib forum? Just saying... this has nothing to do with WSJ or STJ.

However, IMO - no seat should have been empty - regardless of justification or spin


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[dioxide45]

Shouldn't Marriott be discussed on Marriott forum? Or maybe on Carib forum? Just saying... this has nothing to do with WSJ or STJ.

However, IMO - no seat should have been empty - regardless of justification or spin


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There is a thread in the TUG Lounge already. Sometimes we can't always pick where the discussion will go in a thread.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...rom-irma-no-good-deed-goes-unpunished.262414/

 

[dsmrp]

Not sure Marriott really also wanted the responsibility of those 35 people.

That's exactly the assertion of several of the 35 people. We've come full circle ...
I bet Marriott had some sort of liability waiver from all their guests.
Sea transportation implies a contract of carriage, and increased responsibilities on the part of the carrier.

I hope VI officials plan early on evacuating their residents if Hurricane Maria does take a course near the islands.

 

[okwiater]

That's an interesting perspective - "abiding by the terms of a contract." I actually litigate contracts cases for a living and unless your contract said "you owe me the money even if I don't deliver my half of the bargain" (which itself could be of questionable validity), I don't see how an owner is abiding by the terms of his or her contract by refusing a refund when the resort is closed. Advising a renter to get travel insurance doesn't cut it -- that's intended in the event I'm ready to perform but the renter can't or doesn't want to anymore (sickness, death in family, lost job, snowstorm cancels their flight, etc., or bankruptcy of the supplier). I would bet money that the travel insurer of your renter will not pay the claim and, if they do, they'd sue you for the money back because you are the party who didn't perform by delivering the villa in livable condition. Of course, you wouldn't be in breach for not performing - it is force majeure. But it doesn't mean you are entitled to the other side's performance without yours.

The Westin is no doubt refunding all payments of people who made non-refundable reservations directly with them. You think they'd have a leg to stand on if they told you that the reservation was non-refundable, so sorry that the hotel is closed but you should have taken out insurance? Why are you any different? What would the internet outrage look like if a hotel ever tried that (putting aside bankruptcy, of course, since there's a whole legal regime and rationale of equal treatment of creditors behind that)? Or when someone buys something on the internet that's "final sale" but then the store has a fire and the item is destroyed before it is even shipped to you -- do you think you still have a legal obligation to pay for the item because you knew it was final sale and delivery was irrelevant? I don't think this is even a close call legally.

But yes, even if you had a chance of winning versus your renter, I think that it would be reprehensible to stick it to the renter. They were willing to pay me $6,000 in return for xmas week at the villa. I should profit from this tragedy and, even worse, make someone pay $6,000 for a villa that I can't give them? Why is this any more morally acceptable than raising the price of gasoline when people are fleeing a storm (after all, what's wrong with free market supply and demand?)?

The only close call, in my opinion, would be what to do if the resort had reopened by xmas but the renter no longer wanted to come because the facilities were still under repair and the island needed rebuilding. I think a good argument could be made both ways in that circumstance, both legally and morally. The proposal I was in the process of making to my renter when we heard of the cancellation was that if they didn't want to stay there under those circumstances, we should donate the rental fee to the rebuilding effort.

As far as my disappointment in Vistana, I fully understand that's my bargain. They could generate good will by giving me an option, but as I said in my original post, that's entirely up to them and they have no obligation to do so. I suspect there are not a lot of people in my shoes actually given that VG is mandatory and BV, CV and Sunset are all new enough that there aren't that many third-party resales out there with reservations over the next x months. So the dollars and cents probably isn't so great for them. Some companies would do this without hesitation -- we'll see what Vistana decides to do. But I have no doubt that it is entirely their decision and don't begrudge them their rights.

Not sure where you got the impression that I'm not delivering my half of the bargain. I've been quite clear in each of my posts that I've offered to rebook the renters. As you state, this is a force majeure situation -- but that doesn't automatically mean a refund is due. Non-refundable means non-refundable. If they didn't buy insurance and the resort is closed on their travel dates then rebooking is the only remedy.

 

[Mauiwmn]

Two natural-color images provided by the NASA Earth Observatory depict the U.S. and British Virgin islands: The top image shows the verdant islands prior to the passage of Hurricane Irma; the bottom image shows the brown the storm left behind after uprooting and wrecking much of the island chain.

The devastation to St John, St Thomas and neighboring islands is really beyond comprehension. I think one can't really fathom what has occurred without observing it directly.

Here is another article on damages. Satellite images are very telling, nearly all green vegetation removed from the chain of islands. So very sad and tragic for those that reside in the islands.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...irma-it-was-like-stepping-onto-another-planet

 

[Mauiwmn]

I have directly seen some of the resulting devastation to vegetation due to two powerful hurricanes-Andrew and Iniki. The images were haunting and they remind me of the power of nature as I had visited both places prior to the hurricanes striking.

I drove through Homestead Florida in May of 1993, 9 months after Andrew. Large stretches of land had not one leaf. Once large trees looked like small bare sticks stuck in the ground. It looked like a war zone.

I had previously visited Poipu Kauai in Feb 1991. When we returned in March 1995, 2.5 years after Iniki I was most struck by the devastation to the tunnel of trees. The amazing trees were bare sticks as well.

Both Homestead and Poipu have almost fully recovered from their hurricane damage. The Caribbean vegetation will also recover with replantings and the passage of time to allow regrowth. It will be paradise once again.

 

[taffy19]

These two pictures show the devastation to the trees and foliage and 25 years or so is a very long time to wait to see the islands lush and green again like it was before the the hurricane.

I hope that it will be a lot faster to have houses again for everyone that are better built than they were before but it will take a lot of money and work so will need help from other people outside the islands. It will be done because there are many helpful and generous people.

 

[DavidnRobin]

There is a thread in the TUG Lounge already. Sometimes we can't always pick where the discussion will go in a thread.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...rom-irma-no-good-deed-goes-unpunished.262414/

Was just unclear of why it started here - don't care otherwise.
WSJ took care of guests AND locals.


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[DavidnRobin]

Why is there vitriol against resale BV and CV owners? What did they do?

Same arguments as here - just harsher on FB.


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[DavidnRobin]

From STJ Rescue:
All non-essential persons on STJ are being requested to evacuate as MARIA has STJ in her sight (projected for Monday eve)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1643358255695968

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[letsgomets]

Same arguments as here - just harsher on FB.


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What are the arguments? I don't understand why anyone would or should care.

 

[LisaRex]

I believe... V Resort Owners (bought from SVO/VSE) do pay VSN fee if they want to use VSN. They can choose not to be in VSN. Thus... VSN Voluntary
vs. VSN Mandatory where it is required.

It's deemed a mandatory resort because, per that resort's OA (Owners' Agreement), if you buy at said resort, participation in the "club" (SVN/VSE) is mandatory. An owner cannot opt out of membership, even if they have zero interest in exchanging to another resort. This also means that resale owners of mandatory resorts must join the club.

Resorts that do not include language in the OA mandating club membership are considered "voluntary" resorts because participation in the club is not mandated. The language makes it clear that the developer could CHOOSE to let resale owners join the club, but with a few notable exceptions, they have historically chosen not to exercise that right. Therefore, voluntary resorts will have a mix of owners. Those who buy from the developer will be club members; resale owners will not be.

 

[LisaRex]

FYI, as I was thinking about the few historical options when Starwood (at the time) actually invited resale owners to join the club, I realized that it was to SVV/SVR owners who'd just paid a sizeable SA for renovations that were not built into their budget. So, while IMO a future SA seems nearly certain for WSJ owners, the upside MIGHT be that VSE will invite voluntary resale owners to join VSE. That might be a salve to the wound to some people, no?

 

[cubigbird]

From STJ Rescue:
All non-essential persons on STJ are being requested to evacuate as MARIA has STJ in her sight (projected for Monday eve)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1643358255695968

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Looks Maria is still forecasted to be a Cat 3. Only 3 times has 2 hurricanes come within 75 miles of USVI in the same season. Never both Cat 3+. After Irma everything is either decimated or incredibly weakened. I'm sure a Cat 3 will do above average damage. Keep praying for STJ and for the storm to take a different path. Here's to the end to hurricane season, hoping that Westin STJ isn't eventually going to be a total loss.

 

[cyntravel]

We are praying for everyone in the path of Maria.
Cyn

 

[SMHarman]

Yes but VSN members pay annual fees to be able to use the network. Voluntary owners do not. Why should Vistana provide an accommodation to voluntary resale owners at the expense of paid VSN members?

I imagine many of these owners would willingly pay that VSN fee instead of the II fee.

 

[SMHarman]

British Virgin Islands: ‘Knocked Down, but Not Knocked Out’ by Irma https://nyti.ms/2jAGxJx

 

[SMHarman]

FWIW, I think it's very honorable of you to refund your renter's money. However, to say that abiding by the terms of a contract is "reprehensible" is a bit over the top. Travel insurance exists for a reason, and renters knowingly gamble with their payment if they choose not to buy it. Without it, the only remedy for being unable to stay in their rented unit during their rented time period is to be rebooked.

Same for your resale ownership. When you chose to save money by buying resale, you knew the only alternative to having use of your unit was to deposit it into II. I understand what you're saying about this being a once-in-a-lifetime catastrophic event, and I feel badly that no good options are available to you, but I also understand the flip side. I myself often choose to travel without insurance... and I understand and accept the risk of doing so.

OK so what happens when tenant rocks up on St John and can't check in to their unit.

Your contract provides a service you can't fulfill. Act of good or otherwise.

 

[okwiater]

OK so what happens when tenant rocks up on St John and can't check in to their unit.

Your contract provides a service you can't fulfill. Act of good or otherwise.

Resort is closed. The contract provides remedies for resort being unable to provide said unit. Specifically, equivalent accommodations "elsewhere." The renters have been advised the resort is closed. Rebooking is the only remedy. Not sure why "non-refundable" is so difficult to comprehend. Many boutique resorts and airlines have similar policies.

 

[cubigbird]

Assuming the hurricane projections are accurate and St John & WSJ take a Maria Category 4 direct hit, how does that work financially for further destruction? I assume that a second insurance deductible would be required, but how does one distinguish between damage differences from the two storms? At what point is a total loss declared and a complete rebuild required? If a SA becomes huge, I can't imagine owners being willing to pay it and just walking.....with everything so weak already, I can't imagine anything left standing will still be standing after Maria.

 

[okwiater]

Assuming the hurricane projections are accurate and St John & WSJ take a Maria Category 4 direct hit, how does that work financially for further destruction? I assume that a second insurance deductible would be required, but how does one distinguish between damage differences from the two storms? At what point is a total loss declared and a complete rebuild required? If a SA becomes huge, I can't imagine owners being willing to pay it and just walking.....with everything so weak already, I can't imagine anything left standing will still be standing after Maria.

It's highly unlikely that owners of $10-100K timeshares with annual MFs in the thousands will walk because of a $2K special assessment, which is about what it would cost even if the rebuild/repair bill ran up to $300 million.

 

[lizap]

Assuming the hurricane projections are accurate and St John & WSJ take a Maria Category 4 direct hit, how does that work financially for further destruction? I assume that a second insurance deductible would be required, but how does one distinguish between damage differences from the two storms? At what point is a total loss declared and a complete rebuild required? If a SA becomes huge, I can't imagine owners being willing to pay it and just walking.....with everything so weak already, I can't imagine anything left standing will still be standing after Maria.

This is my thought as well. What if they decide the costs are too prohibitive to rebuild? Then what?

 

[vistana101]

So terrible that they are expecting to be hit again...with already $90 million in damages, you do wonder at what point they decide to stop. At least the Westin has the backing of a big corporation like Vistana and ILG. Caneel Bay, on the other hand, isn't as lucky (a previous article said residents heard rumors of the resort not reopening, and the resort did not explicitly refute that possibility).