Trouble - Marriott Grand Residence Tahoe [Management Agreement in Jeopardy?]

[dioxide45]

Actually, the Trust owners are not subsidizing the legacy owners per se; the assessments are the same per interest whether owned by the Trust or the few remaining individuals. However, both the legacy fractional owners and the Trust owners are grossly carrying the brand standards for the whole owners. The whole owners have all the same amenities at the property, but don't pay for them.

A big expense for timeshares is housekeeping and front desk. I doubt whole owners have any of these amenities. They don't get a weekly clean, do they? How are housekeeping fees paid for owners at this resort? I know at GRC they pay a housekeeping fee separately from the maintenance fees. You seem to be rather cagey (perhaps understandably) and not providing a lot of actual details. Just accusations.

 

[rcdcowner557]

Interesting posting. Based on the username @rcdcowner557 and the discussion of subsidizing whole owners and legacy owners, I would guess the property is one of the Ritz-Carlton Destination Clubs that is co-located with whole ownership residences. It's not really clear what the problem is as the discussion of who is subsidizing what seems fluid. It's also not clear what amenities are causing the differences and whether there are possible reasons for the cost allocations. I'm a bit interested because I just picked up a fractional at a sister resort; can you provide any details on what the charges and amenities are?

The key is to look at the governing documents. MVW is allocating costs based on estimated usage, which is problematic for a number of reasons, first and foremost that that method of allocating costs is not allowed by our governing documents. We never would have bought into a condominium building where how much we used a doorman, etc. was the basis of how much we paid. It would be great if that were the metric, because we don't use any of the amenities (wine night, porter, valet, concierge). However, the whole owners use them every day for everything from parking their car to delivering their door dash to bringing up their groceries. What is even more absurd is the "estimated usage" was from a time where the entire mix of whole owner units was different from fractionally owned units.

 

[rcdcowner557]

A big expense for timeshares is housekeeping and front desk. I doubt whole owners have any of these amenities. They don't get a weekly clean, do they? How are housekeeping fees paid for owners at this resort? I know at GRC they pay a housekeeping fee separately from the maintenance fees. You seem to be rather cagey (perhaps understandably) and not providing a lot of actual details. Just accusations.

housekeeping expenses are not at issue. What is at issue are all the staff in the common areas who serve fractional and whole owners on the same terms. You have the same amenities whether you are a fractional owner or a whole owner, with the exception of housekeeping; we have taken no issue with that charge. It is the charge for the concierges, porters, doormen and valet that are at issue. The whole owners avail themselves of this excellent staff day-in and day-out. There are 76 wholly-owned residences and only 25 fractionally-owned residences; all are to be treated the same under the governing documents; yet MVW has allocated the vast majority of the expenses for the staff to the fractional owners.

 

[dioxide45]

housekeeping expenses are not at issue. What is at issue are all the staff in the common areas who serve fractional and whole owners on the same terms. You have the same amenities whether you are a fractional owner or a whole owner, with the exception of housekeeping; we have taken no issue with that charge. It is the charge for the concierges, porters, doormen and valet that are at issue. The whole owners avail themselves of this excellent staff day-in and day-out. There are 76 wholly-owned residences and only 25 fractionally-owned residences; all are to be treated the same under the governing documents; yet MVW has allocated the vast majority of the expenses for the staff to the fractional owners.

Perhaps the BOD/HOA needs to hire their own independent council to review the documents and make the case.

 

[rcdcowner557]

The key is to look at the governing documents. MVW is allocating costs based on estimated usage, which is problematic for a number of reasons, first and foremost that that method of allocating costs is not allowed by our governing documents. We never would have bought into a condominium building where how much we used a doorman, etc. was the basis of how much we paid. It would be great if that were the metric, because we don't use any of the amenities (wine night, porter, valet, concierge). However, the whole owners use them every day for everything from parking their car to delivering their door dash to bringing up their groceries. What is even more absurd is the "estimated usage" was from a time where the entire mix of whole owner units was different from fractionally owned units.

MVW is now pushing us to amend the governing documents to legalize what they have been doing. It will be interesting to see how this develops because the Trust owns the vast majority of the fractional interests, so if the MVC Trust BOD (controlled by MVW employees) votes to amend the governing documents to legalize what they have been doing, keep your eyes posted for the lawsuit that will ensue. I am putting this out here because our property cannot be the only one where this is occurring. I would recommend anybody who is in a MVW-managed property where the Trust owns a large portion to examine the cost allocations in the property wide budget to make sure they comply.

 

[dioxide45]

MVW is now pushing us to amend the governing documents to legalize what they have been doing. It will be interesting to see how this develops because the Trust owns the vast majority of the fractional interests, so if the MVC Trust BOD (controlled by MVW employees) votes to amend the governing documents to legalize what they have been doing, keep your eyes posted for the lawsuit that will ensue. I am putting this out here because our property cannot be the only one where this is occurring. I would recommend anybody who is in a MVW-managed property where the Trust owns a large portion to examine the cost allocations in the property wide budget to make sure they comply.

I don't think there are very many properties in the MVC system that have whole ownership and fractional at the same resort. Perhaps only some of the RCC and maybe Kauai Lagoons.

 

[rcdcowner557]

Perhaps the BOD/HOA needs to hire their own independent council to review the documents and make the case.

We did. Two outside legal opinions came back saying the current allocations are not allowed by the governing documents. Again, stay tuned for the legal action that sadly may have to ensue, and, in the interim, check the governing documents and allocations at your own properties.

 

[rcdcowner557]

Interesting posting. Based on the username @rcdcowner557 and the discussion of subsidizing whole owners and legacy owners, I would guess the property is one of the Ritz-Carlton Destination Clubs that is co-located with whole ownership residences. It's not really clear what the problem is as the discussion of who is subsidizing what seems fluid. It's also not clear what amenities are causing the differences and whether there are possible reasons for the cost allocations. I'm a bit interested because I just picked up a fractional at a sister resort; can you provide any details on what the charges and amenities are?

If the fractional interest you just picked up happens to be at Vail, look at the amendments to the governing documents made in 2023 and ask your BOD to explain.

 

[Eric B]

It isn't; it's St Thomas and there aren't any whole ownerships there so I don't think we'll have the same problems.

 

[pedro47]

The key is to look at the governing documents. MVW is allocating costs based on estimated usage, which is problematic for a number of reasons, first and foremost that that method of allocating costs is not allowed by our governing documents. We never would have bought into a condominium building where how much we used a doorman, etc. was the basis of how much we paid. It would be great if that were the metric, because we don't use any of the amenities (wine night, porter, valet, concierge). However, the whole owners use them every day for everything from parking their car to delivering their door dash to bringing up their groceries. What is even more absurd is the "estimated usage" was from a time where the entire mix of whole owner units was different from fractionally owned units.

What page or pages are you referring to in the governing documents?

 

[rcdcowner557]

What page or pages are you referring to in the governing documents?

Every set of governing documents is different, but all have a section that addresses the purpose of assessments and how they are calculated. Accordingly, I cannot answer the question with respect to your property's governing documents. I would just look at all the sections that address assessments and consult a qualified attorney if you have questions about them.