• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $23,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $23 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Trouble - Marriott Grand Residence Tahoe [Management Agreement in Jeopardy?]

wuv pooh

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
524
Reaction score
137
Location
NOVA
Based on all of the documents presented in this thread, the management company appears to have been at fault for at least the two following behaviors:
1. They overspent the agreed upon 2022 budget without informing the BOD or getting their agreement.
2. They issued the BOD unapproved minutes without 'draft' being on the minutes to indicate they had not been approved. (The 'draft' also included information that the BOD had no knowledge of.)
Are you sure?

1. I have not seen any 2022 minutes posted. The July 2023 minutes posted clearly provided financial reports that were approved and discussed budget shortfalls and projected deficits. It is not unreasonable to expect that the management company provided reports to the board in 2022 that also showed shortfalls. To me the board is in a tough position for 2022 - they either allowed the management company to not provide the required financial reports or failed to recognize/take action for the shortfalls. Either option is potentially negligent. A lawsuit is potentially an expedient way to divert attention and lead to a settlement that avoids blame. Think we also established that the management company has the right to pay the lawful expenses for the association even if they exceed an approved budget amount. I am not sure what their reporting obligation is in that case, but maybe someone has posted that.

2. That appears to be the case to me if the board has not met since late October. However, as someone pointed out earlier, what is legal is not always ethical. I can understand Marriott releasing the minutes, even if draft, to provide more information to the owners or even in a misguided effort to defend themselves. To me the question is not if they are marked, but if they are accurate. I guess time will tell about that and the consequences of violating the letter of the law.
 

davidvel

TUG Member
Joined
May 9, 2008
Messages
8,179
Reaction score
5,152
Location
No. Cty. San Diego
Resorts Owned
Marriott Shadow Ridge (Villages)
Carlsbad Inn
The minutes are individual notes, and as such, are inherently subjective. Therefore, the need to be validated with the board members to ensure accuracy.
Correct, the board is who has the power and obligation to finalize and approve the minutes. They get to decide what is "accurate."
 

Superchief

TUG Member
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
4,085
Reaction score
3,049
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Are you sure?



2. That appears to be the case to me if the board has not met since late October. However, as someone pointed out earlier, what is legal is not always ethical. I can understand Marriott releasing the minutes, even if draft, to provide more information to the owners or even in a misguided effort to defend themselves. To me the question is not if they are marked, but if they are accurate. I guess time will tell about that and the consequences of violating the letter of the law.
Per LeslieDet previous post regarding legal requirements:

Unauthorized Publication. Without board authorization, management companies do not have a "right" to publish draft minutes. As managing agents, they take their direction from the board. If the board instructs them, for whatever reason, to hold on the publication of draft minutes, the management company does not have a right to ignore the board's direction. The board must make minutes available in draft form for review by the membership within 30 days of the meeting. If there is concern about publishing draft minutes that may contain errors, boards should have the minutes sent to them for review and feedback to the minute-taker for corrections before they are posted.

DRAFT Minutes. As noted above, there is no requirement that draft minutes be posted. There is, however, a requirement that they be distributed to members who request it. If and when draft minutes are posted or distributed, they should have a large "DRAFT" stamp on the page or marked "DRAFT only--not approved by the Board" or something similar to indicate the minutes have not yet been approved by the board and may contain errors."

If MVC management determined the 2022 expense payments exceeded the approved budget and needed to be paid, why didn't they contact the BOD to determine whether any other expenses needed to be cut in order to stay within budget? As posted above, the BOD only learned about this payment by reading the 2022 tax return.
 

wuv pooh

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
524
Reaction score
137
Location
NOVA
Per LeslieDet previous post regarding legal requirements:



If MVC management determined the 2022 expense payments exceeded the approved budget and needed to be paid, why didn't they contact the BOD to determine whether any other expenses needed to be cut in order to stay within budget? As posted above, the BOD only learned about this payment by reading the 2022 tax return.
Yes, I said they violated the law/letter of the law if they released draft minutes without properly marking them. That does not mean that they are inaccurate. The BOD has the authority to determine the minutes, but assume they also have a fiduciary responsibility to accurately report in good faith.

If the BOD received financial statements showing a $200k plus overage then why did they not contact MVC? Why did they not discover something that is reported every meeting until the tax return? Or why did they approve an annual report with such a large discrepancy? As I said, I am not aware of the legal obligations for reporting this, if any. As a matter of practice I would expect MVC to bring this to the attention of the BOD as soon as they become aware. That clearly happened in the 2023 minutes and it seems reasonable to assume that 2022 was the same, but without the minutes we do not know.
 

LeslieDet

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
772
Reaction score
612
Based on all of the documents presented in this thread, the management company appears to have been at fault for at least the two following behaviors:
1. They overspent the agreed upon 2022 budget without informing the BOD or getting their agreement.
2. They issued the BOD unapproved minutes without 'draft' being on the minutes to indicate they had not been approved. (The 'draft' also included information that the BOD had no knowledge of.)
While neither of us are privy to the actual communications, do not presume that what the BOD president said in the letter you quoted is accurate. CA HOA law requires the financials be provided at regular increments to the BOD, and what we can see is that the minutes from the July 2023 meeting of the BOD and the financials reviewed at that meeting is that the details clearly disclose the shortfall. It would be quite unusual for similar info to not have been included within the financials for 2022. Simply because the BOD president perhaps did not personally recognize the operating loss until reading the tax return does not mean that the financials did not identify the ongoing losses. If the info was in the financials, the BOD should have paid attention or sought advice to understand the financials if the members did not upon review. From purely a business practice perspective, for the BOD president to say he did not know until reading the tax returns is not credible. The data for the tax returns comes from the HOA financials.

Moreover, it is unreasonable to assume that there is a breach of the management contract by the simple act of the manager paying the bills as they come due, especially for utilities and casualty insurance. There is no obligation to obtain "approval" to pay the bill for insurance if the premium exceeds the budgeted sum. The management contract requires that the manager maintain the insurance for the property and, to maintain that insurance, the manager must pay the bill. Similarly, the utilities must stay functional. Simply because the cost of utilities exceeds the budget doesn't mean that the manager is not authorized to pay the utility bill. The BOD cannot micromanage the project when it comes to third party providers like insurance companies and utility services. It isn't a breach of contract to maintain the property and pay the bills for keeping the doors open and the lights on.

Finally, as to the minutes, no owner has stated whether or not the minutes provided by management had or did not have a "draft" stamp. While the BOD president states in his most recent missive that the minutes were not accurate, the timeline is missing. Details/facts are missing. Keep in mind that the BOD cannot simply bury their head in the sand and reject minutes because they don't like the reality of the situation. If an owner requests the manager provide the draft minutes at 30 days, even if the BOD has not approved them and notified the manager that it wants to modify the minutes, the manager must still provide the draft copy to the owner. The BOD president's letter is more than 60 days after the meeting. No one has provided a timeline of what happened in the 30 days post meeting. We can speculate that there was discussion over the minutes, or perhaps the BOD simply chose to ignore them. The point is no one in this feed has been able to provide any of the details, so whether or not your item #2 is accurate is unknown.
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
10,425
Reaction score
3,985
While I understand your perspective on the historical context, I believe several factors complicate the situation.

Firstly, those were pre-MVC and pre-MVW if I am not mistaken, so for Marriott International, the mother company at the time, the loses were relatively smaller, and because the resorts were not included in a trust, the operational headaches were significantly lower. Hard to know now how much inventory Marriott owned at those resorts, but the inventory they own at MGR is certainly an important factor. This complexity can be particularly challenging compared to a standalone resort managed directly by Marriott.

Secondly, if a settlement isn't reached discreetly, sensitive details that Marriott might prefer to keep private could be exposed. My impression is that Marriott does not like to much sunlight on how they operate.
I doubt MVC would allow themselves to be blackmailed to keep the BOD quiet, esp given the sales tactics they tolerate and potential bad press there. My point was they have walked away from resorts in the past with profits on the table. These were resorts MVC had sold directly, not just managed even though not built by MVC. And as I noted, there were those here with the same points you are making, that no way would MVC walk away. IMO no single resort is important enough to the system to cause them to simply give in. Once they went public, that die was cast and one can bet these discussions took place before sending out the minutes.
 
Last edited:

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
49,915
Reaction score
21,366
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
As of 2014 when I stopped tracking detailed inventory, it looks like the trust owned about 15% of the inventory at GRCLT.

199 Units
Counts as of May 2014
1/4 Share - 102
5/52 Interest - 48

I don't know how aggressive they would have been trying to reacquire inventory. I know that Monarch grew a lot in the trust, but that is a different situation.
 

igopogo

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2022
Messages
311
Reaction score
169
It would be quite unusual for similar info to not have been included within the financials for 2022.
For some reason I don’t have July 22 minutes, but the October minutes state that the BOD is aware of a shortfall and refused to wire money to the manager.
as to the minutes, no owner has stated whether or not the minutes provided by management had or did not have a "draft" stamp.
The minutes I have for every meeting (including this most recent) state “subject to approval at the next board meeting”
 

bizaro86

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
3,828
Reaction score
2,692
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
As of 2014 when I stopped tracking detailed inventory, it looks like the trust owned about 15% of the inventory at GRCLT.

199 Units
Counts as of May 2014
1/4 Share - 102
5/52 Interest - 48

I don't know how aggressive they would have been trying to reacquire inventory. I know that Monarch grew a lot in the trust, but that is a different situation.

I think by far the most likely outcome here is that the residence club remains managed by MVW, but with an entirely new board that is more amenable to MVW's interests. With at least 15% ownership they have a huge voting block, and there will be some owners who disapprove of the current boards actions. (Maybe many, hard to tell).
 

AlmostRetired

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
1,415
Reaction score
664
Location
Long Island, NY
Resorts Owned
Grande Ocean Platinum, 3 x Grand Chateau 3 Bedroom (annual, EOY Odd, EOY Even).,
Up until this thread, I thought the HOA had either direct input into the GM assigned or some yearly appraisal. I guess not. The GMs at both the Monarch and Grande Ocean have always been well liked by the owners and reachable. If this is not the case here, this is a sure sign the person should go. I am not sure if the is common, but at the Monarch, a board member can not serve more than 2 terms without a year break before running agin. This increases the chance of getting new ideas.
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,993
Reaction score
8,775
Location
Florida
if people are going to be nasty to each other, please dont BOTH of you report it to the admins.

how about we turn over a new leaf for 2024 and in the immortal words of bill and ted....be excellent to each other instead.
 

pedro47

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
22,705
Reaction score
8,973
Location
East Coast
if people are going to be nasty to each other, please dont BOTH of you report it to the admins.

how about we turn over a new leaf for 2024 and in the immortal words of bill and ted....be excellent to each other instead.
I liked this post. Happy New Year Everyone in Tugger Land.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,634
Reaction score
5,827
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
IMO MVC is far more willing to walk away than some feel they are. Plus it seems this is far more about the dollars to the BOD than to MVC. I get the sense t's become a peeing contest at this point. Plus any "compromise" that leaves the BOD intact creates likely future conflict. I can see MVC with minor compromises but it seems to me that any potential compromise that keeps the status quot is going to mostly be the BOD giving, maybe 70/30 at most in favor of MVC. Plus we don't know if the current BOD values MVC as much as a subset of the owners do. It could be that some of them want to see MVC drop them. There were those here on TUG that said MVC would never give up Spicebush or Swallowtai or Vaill but you know what happened there.
In general I agree wholeheartedly with what's bolded. Didn't we watch them do exactly that at the resorts you mentioned (and others in the earliest days of the company getting into timeshares) for reasons that paled in comparison to the situation that's developed at GR Tahoe? Vail was the most surprising in that the single resort consisted of five buildings and when all was said and done, only three remained Marriott-managed/branded and the other two separated. Many, many people were mistakenly confident that Marriott wouldn't ever allow an outcome with only certain buildings remaining, and those of us who shared that confidence are probably now the most ardent believers that if/when Marriott wants to sever, they'll make it happen.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,634
Reaction score
5,827
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
if people are going to be nasty to each other, please dont BOTH of you report it to the admins.

how about we turn over a new leaf for 2024 and in the immortal words of bill and ted....be excellent to each other instead.
I've been offline a few days for a New Year's Eve wedding in downtown Boston that ranks right up there with the most fun I've ever had in the city - and I grew up there! The ceremony and reception took place on the 32nd floor of a high-rise across the street from the Omni Parker House with the city's First Night 7PM fireworks as the backdrop out the windows during the ceremony and the midnight fireworks out the windows on the opposite side of the venue to close out the festivities. Happy New Year, everyone!

So, thanks for the help, Brian. :love:
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
49,915
Reaction score
21,366
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
In general I agree wholeheartedly with what's bolded. Didn't we watch them do exactly that at the resorts you mentioned (and others in the earliest days of the company getting into timeshares) for reasons that paled in comparison to the situation that's developed at GR Tahoe? Vail was the most surprising in that the single resort consisted of five buildings and when all was said and done, only three remained Marriott-managed/branded and the other two separated. Many, many people were mistakenly confident that Marriott wouldn't ever allow an outcome with only certain buildings remaining, and those of us who shared that confidence are probably now the most ardent believers that if/when Marriott wants to sever, they'll make it happen.
I think one difference between then and now is that MVC has the trust that has significant ownership in these resorts. Back then, they cut ties and the resort went on its merry way. The same isn't true today because MVC has significant investment in the resorts through the trust that they can't easily divest themselves of.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,634
Reaction score
5,827
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
Up until this thread, I thought the HOA had either direct input into the GM assigned or some yearly appraisal. I guess not. The GMs at both the Monarch and Grande Ocean have always been well liked by the owners and reachable. If this is not the case here, this is a sure sign the person should go. I am not sure if the is common, but at the Monarch, a board member can not serve more than 2 terms without a year break before running agin. This increases the chance of getting new ideas.
I might be completely misunderstanding you and if so I apologize, but it's important to understand that when talking about Marriott as the Management Company for a property, that's different than the General Manager positions (employed by Marriott Vacations Worldwide) at the individual properties. For example, we're talking about the latter if we're talking about the "manager" that's supposed to be coordinating resort budgets with the BOD and providing Owner Services-related processes of an individual resort, and the former if we're talking about the "manager" who's onsite and coordinating employee schedules, etc...

In the context of this thread, referring to the "manager" possibly being no longer associated with the resort, the meaning is that the Management Contract with the resort would be severed resulting in the resort no longer coming under the MVW umbrella and any affiliations probably ceasing.
 
Last edited:

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,634
Reaction score
5,827
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
I think one difference between then and now is that MVC has the trust that has significant ownership in these resorts. Back then, they cut ties and the resort went on its merry way. The same isn't true today because MVC has significant investment in the resorts through the trust that they can't easily divest themselves of.
That's why it stood out to me at the outset of Abound (formerly Destination Club) being deliberately designed to allow for non-Marriott-branded resorts to be conveyed to the Abound Trust and/or participate in the Abound Exchange Company.

Whether Marriott would use a separated GR Tahoe property as the guinea pig for fleshing out that design is unknown so while it's a highly distressing situation to watch, it's also quite interesting.
 

travelhacker

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
1,361
Reaction score
1,180
I for one am done with this board.

I don’t love Marriott, they’ve done a number on my Hyatt maintenance fees and I realize they are only looking after their own interests. I also know the board has done an excellent job keeping maintenance fees in balance with a high quality resort up until the last year or two.

However, what they said in their own statement in response to the Marriott letter warning about leaving as the management company is what made me determine that they aren’t the right board moving forward.

The assertion that the board minutes were incorrect may or may not be true, but me thinking that the board was ridiculous from the minutes had more to do with how it lined up with the statement that they released which in large part says that they’d like to tie maintenance fee increases to the CPI in San Francisco. I think that would work well most years but Lake Tahoe had massive fires that had a large increase in insurance fees as well as inflation far higher than what I’ve seen in my lifetime.
 
Last edited:

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
49,915
Reaction score
21,366
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
That's why it stood out to me at the outset of Abound (formerly Destination Club) being deliberately designed to allow for non-Marriott-branded resorts to be conveyed to the Abound Trust and/or participate in the Abound Exchange Company.

Whether Marriott would use a separated GR Tahoe property as the guinea pig for fleshing out that design is unknown so while it's a highly distressing situation to watch, it's also quite interesting.
But I believe, if MVC pulled out of GRCLT they would then be bound by the reservation procedures of the resort itself and may not be able to necessarily allow single night reservations. If the resort isn't managed by MVC, I don't see it being part of Abound. Owners there would no longer have the ability to elect for club points and the MVC trust would have to use the quarters and interests it owns there in line with the reservation procedures spelled out in the underlying documents.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,634
Reaction score
5,827
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
But I believe, if MVC pulled out of GRCLT they would then be bound by the reservation procedures of the resort itself and may not be able to necessarily allow single night reservations. If the resort isn't managed by MVC, I don't see it being part of Abound. Owners there would no longer have the ability to elect for club points and the MVC trust would have to use the quarters and interests it owns there in line with the reservation procedures spelled out in the underlying documents.
You could be absolutely 100% correct and I would not be one bit surprised. :)
 

travelhacker

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
1,361
Reaction score
1,180
But I believe, if MVC pulled out of GRCLT they would then be bound by the reservation procedures of the resort itself and may not be able to necessarily allow single night reservations. If the resort isn't managed by MVC, I don't see it being part of Abound. Owners there would no longer have the ability to elect for club points and the MVC trust would have to use the quarters and interests it owns there in line with the reservation procedures spelled out in the underlying documents.
I agree with this.

I have seen how this has played out with Hyatt and the property in aspen, and it’s a decent playbook for taking a pound of flesh from Marriott.

We are in a situation where it is in both parties best interest to make the relationship work.
 

AlmostRetired

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
1,415
Reaction score
664
Location
Long Island, NY
Resorts Owned
Grande Ocean Platinum, 3 x Grand Chateau 3 Bedroom (annual, EOY Odd, EOY Even).,
I might be completely misunderstanding you and if so I apologize, but it's important to understand that when talking about Marriott as the Management Company for a property, that's different than the General Manager positions (employed by Marriott Vacations Worldwide) at the individual properties. For example, we're talking about the latter if we're talking about the "manager" that's supposed to be coordinating resort budgets with the BOD and providing Owner Services-related processes of an individual resort, and the former if we're talking about the "manager" who's onsite and coordinating employee schedules, etc...

In the context of this thread, referring to the "manager" possibly being no longer associated with the resort, the meaning is that the Management Contract with the resort would be severed resulting in the resort no longer coming under the MVW umbrella and any affiliations probably ceasing.
Thank you. You are correct, I was thinking they were the same.
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
49,915
Reaction score
21,366
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
I agree with this.

I have seen how this has played out with Hyatt and the property in aspen, and it’s a decent playbook for taking a pound of flesh from Marriott.

We are in a situation where it is in both parties best interest to make the relationship work.
I certainly commend the board for trying to keep maintenance fee increases in line. I know Marriott as a management company likes to blow through cash like there is a money tree growing on every property. We just paid for milestone structural inspections at Sheraton Vistana Villages that aren't due for another 5-6 years and I am sure many other Florida resorts have done the same. I do think though that the GRCLT BOD has some rather unrealistic expectations as to the costs of running their resort and what metric to tie maintenance fee increases to.
 
Top