CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[CalGalTraveler]

The best way to determine if a reservation should be made via DC or VSN is to look at the conversion ratios. Let's look at a specific scenario;

@jabberwocky WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.

Say you want to go to Scottsdale SDO 2BR for a week in July. That is only 1,450 Club Points. That same week would cost 56,300 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 38:827:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.

Where did you find WKORVN OF is worth 8325. Was that announced somewhere? Sorry I am traveling and may be behind.

 

[cubigbird]

This is from one of the facebook groups, but shows what fees go away when you go to the higher Club Fee amount. The numbers in the bottom right are the fees for different levels in the MVC DC program. It doesn't seem to indicate the VSN fee going away. So not sure what that means. It would also be great if housekeeping fees were eliminated.
View attachment 50504

If those MVC fees are accurate that’s quite a jump!! We don’t use those benefits where Vistana charges us the extra fees so it’s more out of pocket for the same value.

 

[VacationForever]

Where did you find WKORVN OF is worth 8325. Was that announced somewhere? Sorry I am traveling and may be behind.

Post 654

CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

Depending on the exchange rate, there may be VSN resort/unit that someone may want to secure 13 months out instead of 8 months. True

tugbbs.com

 

[dougp26364]

This is from one of the facebook groups, but shows what fees go away when you go to the higher Club Fee amount. The numbers in the bottom right are the fees for different levels in the MVC DC program. It doesn't seem to indicate the VSN fee going away. So not sure what that means. It would also be great if housekeeping fees were eliminated.
View attachment 50504

Initially, trading all the extra fees we were paying for the one membership fee was the sole reason for us joining the DC. The price point to enroll was low enough we’d break even on the cost soon enough. We had what amounted to 2 full weeks (one EY and two EOY deeds). Our practice was to lock-off and exchange, so 2 LO fees, 2 exchange fees and our II membership fee. The other resorts we owned at the time were in RCI and and one remaining in II, but all were for personal usage, never being exchanged.

 

[VacationForever]

I am hoping that they don't charge 2 fees for those who own both Vistana and Marriott.

 

[byeloe]

Do you happen to know what WLR 2BR PLAT+ converts to?

Supposed to be 4950

 

[dioxide45]

I am hoping that they don't charge 2 fees for those who own both Vistana and Marriott.

Another unanswered question...

 

[CVC]

And one for SVR. They seem to have lined it up pretty closely to the values for Grande Vista. I know there was some speculation as to how the Orlando resort points values would compare to MVC. View attachment 50393

Is there a chart for Nanae yet? Thanks

 

[SueDonJ]

I am hoping that they don't charge 2 fees for those who own both Vistana and Marriott.

Another unanswered question...

Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't somebody who chooses to participate in both II and RCI be expected to cover the annual dues for both of those exchange systems? If the VSN people who also own Marriott enrolled Weeks choose to enroll their Vistana ownerships in the DC, why should the Club Dues fee that they pay for their Marriott ownerships cover the Vistana transactions for their enrolled Vistana products? As a Marriott enrolled-Weeks owner I certainly don't want my Club Dues subsidizing Vistana transaction fees.

My question for when the Q&A thread opens back up is: if eligible Vistana ownerships are not charged a one-time Enrollment Fee at the outset, does that mean that the existing Enrollment Fee for eligible Marriott Weeks will be removed?

 

[VacationForever]

Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't somebody who chooses to participate in both II and RCI be expected to cover the annual dues for both of those exchange systems? If the VSN people who also own Marriott enrolled Weeks choose to enroll their Vistana ownerships in the DC, why should the Club Dues fee that they pay for their Marriott ownerships cover the Vistana transactions for their enrolled Vistana products? As a Marriott enrolled-Weeks owner I certainly don't want my Club Dues subsidizing Vistana transaction fees.

My question for when the Q&A thread opens back up is: if eligible Vistana ownerships are not charged a one-time Enrollment Fee at the outset, does that mean that the existing Enrollment Fee for eligible Marriott Weeks will be removed?

They shouldn't charge 2 club fees for the same owner if all their weeks are enrolled. I don't see it as MVC subsidizing Vistana. It is no different from MVC being able to book (for free) into Vistana properties in MVC or in II. Is Vistana subsidizing MVC owners since can the latter can book for free? Once enrolled, they can cross-book and it is just one club.

RCI and II comparison is not the same. They are 2 different companies and don't share a common platform.

However, if Vistana weeks are not enrolled, then they should continue to pay a VSN fee, which I would think should remain lower than MVC club fees.

 

[dioxide45]

My question for when the Q&A thread opens back up is: if eligible Vistana ownerships are not charged a one-time Enrollment Fee at the outset, does that mean that the existing Enrollment Fee for eligible Marriott Weeks will be removed?

While the website shows fees to enroll Marriott weeks, they have effectively removed the enrollment fee by simply watching a webinar.

Denise's contact indicated that they couldn't answer questions on the Marriott side, so I doubt they would know the answer to that question.

 

[dioxide45]

Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't somebody who chooses to participate in both II and RCI be expected to cover the annual dues for both of those exchange systems? If the VSN people who also own Marriott enrolled Weeks choose to enroll their Vistana ownerships in the DC, why should the Club Dues fee that they pay for their Marriott ownerships cover the Vistana transactions for their enrolled Vistana products? As a Marriott enrolled-Weeks owner I certainly don't want my Club Dues subsidizing Vistana transaction fees.

If you elect DC points though, you aren't using VSN that year (unless with a different VIO). Several of the fees going aware are actually VSN fees anyway, like the cancellation fee and banking fees.

 

[sharr7]

I think I get why there'd probably still be 2 fees but think it's a bad look to roll out this combined program (raising fees on VSN) and then say "but to actually access the combined program you need to pay the separate program fees"

I guess people that own both have been doing it for years anyway in effect. But how many people did they sell FLEX to over the last few years claiming they'd have access to this great merged program, all for the low $155 fee. And now it's actually $430 if you want to have access to both, oops.

 

[jabberwocky]

Is there a chart for Nanae yet? Thanks

There is one. I didn’t get a picture of it.

 

[Eric B]

Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't somebody who chooses to participate in both II and RCI be expected to cover the annual dues for both of those exchange systems?

RCI and II comparison is not the same. They are 2 different companies and don't share a common platform.

IMHO, a more appropriate comparison would be either the MVC and corporate II dues, the VSN and corporate II dues, or the Club Wyndham and RCI dues because they are all common ownership of nested exchange systems.

 

[NiteMaire]

Here's some pictures along with the post (not mine) from a FB group. It was posted by an owner who recently did a virtual presentation. Pictures detail VSN/Consolidated Club dues along with some benefits.

ETA: I just realized @dioxide45 posted one of the pictures already, but I'll leave it here along with the other pictures.
----------------------------
We are 4 * Vistana owners and received an email from Marriott Vacation Club with a request for a virtual meeting. Here are the results: Vistana will stay the same with the same rules without change as per our contracts. As owners, we can choose to never use a Marriott property and keep doing things the way we have always done. MVC is merely another way for us to vacation like II except when choosing to elect Vacation Club Points (Marriott), we would have to trade our entire unit, ie 2 BR lockoff, not just one half. Our Westin Mission Hills 2 BR platinum plus = 3150 Vacation Club Points; Lagunamar 2 BR platinum plus = 4950 Vacation Club Points and our 63,000 Adventuras options = 2865. Our total in the Marriott system equals 10,200 making us Presidential. I attached a picture of benefits for this level. We are now titanium elite in Bonvoy as long as we still own what we own.
2. Our fees should go down as we all will fall under Marriott for these charges. I have attached charts to show this. Our sales person thought the actual fee for us would be around $300 when things are finalized in EARLY SUMMER. (No June date was mentioned but will only say it is supposed to happen in early summer for the hard launch.)
3. Misc.: If we elected to convert one unit into Vacation Club Points and did not use all the VCP's, they can be banked. We can use 2 years of VCP's to go on a cruise, etc. With Marriott, we can book 13 months in advance for any number of nights. (only if you elected to convert)
4. These are just some notes. We could have asked anything but once we knew things would not change for us on the Vistana side, it really didn't matter. Her soft sell was for us to add more Adventuras to have total options equaling 148,100 like a 2 BR. We did not buy. She was very nice and had been with MVC for 23 years as a Presidential level owner herself. She told us they can no longer sell Westin Flex as of a couple of days ago. She can only sell Adventuras and Sheraton Flex at this point and is unsure how much longer. I hope this is helpful

 

[DanCali]

Kierland 2BD platinum converts to 4,050 DC points.

Not bad at all considering how low the MF is for that resort.

"Not bad" is a relative term. In terms of Points/MF it may look good. But what about Points/Rental Value? Maintenance fees are something you pay every year and it's a sunk cost. But if you don't use your timeshare in a given year, you can now (i) convert it to DC points, or (ii) rent it out and use that cash - so compare those two options.

I look at it this way - assuming you are allowed to convert (e.g., developer purchase or retro, or whatever rules may be) then you are also allowed to rent points from others. Therefore, a comparison with rental values is valid. With that said, I will assume:

(1) You can rent out Plat WKV for $4000-$4500.
(2) Rental cost of points if $0.65-$0.70.

So, let's take the most conservative example:

Rent WKV for $4000. Use that cash to rent 5700 points at $0.70. I view this as a worst case scenario using the rental market because I took WKV on low and and DC point rental cost at high end.
In a less conservative example rent WKV for $4500 and use that cash to rent 6700 points at $0.67.

These are pretty realistic examples given current rental prices - so does 4050 still look good compared to 5700-6700 points?

One has to keep in mind that:
1) This does involve a bit more hassle than just clicking on a button and electing points
2) Unlike elected points, rented points can only be used by you in a given usage year/period. They cannot be banked or transferred again. So yes, they are more restricted. Don't overbuy!

But converting WKV Plat to 4050 points given its rental value would be giving way too much value away. It'd be pretty easy to end up with 2000-2500 additional points (or 4050 points and ~$1500 in your pocket) the by doing the rental transaction described above. That's a 50%-60% bonus for a bit more extra work and somewhat more restricted points...

 

[Mroze]

"Not bad" is a relative term. In terms of Points/MF it may look good. But what about Points/Rental Value? Maintenance fees are something you pay every year and it's a sunk cost. But if you don't use your timeshare in a given year, you can now (i) convert it to DC points, or (ii) rent it out and use that cash - so compare those two options.

I look at it this way - assuming you are allowed to convert (e.g., developer purchase or retro, or whatever rules may be) then you are also allowed to rent points from others. Therefore, a comparison with rental values is valid. With that said, I will assume:

(1) You can rent out Plat WKV for $4000-$4500.
(2) Rental cost of points if $0.65-$0.70.

So, let's take the most conservative example:

Rent WKV for $4000. Use that cash to rent 5700 points at $0.70. I view this as a worst case scenario using the rental market because I took WKV on low and and DC point rental cost at high end.
In a less conservative example rent WKV for $4500 and use that cash to rent 6700 points at $0.67.

These are pretty realistic examples given current rental prices - so does 4050 still look good compared to 5700-6700 points?

One has to keep in mind that:
1) This does involve a bit more hassle than just clicking on a button and electing points
2) Unlike elected points, rented points can only be used by you in a given usage year/period. They cannot be banked or transferred again. So yes, they are more restricted. Don't overbuy!

But converting WKV Plat to 4050 points given its rental value would be giving way too much value away. It'd be pretty easy to end up with 2000-2500 additional points (or 4050 points and ~$1500 in your pocket) the by doing the rental transaction described above. That's a 50%-60% bonus for a bit more extra work and somewhat more restricted points...

Thank you for the comparisons.

We own 6 x 2BR-WKV PLAT+ EY.
Last year we rented some for ~$4600 combined [Small + Large].
This year I have already rented most of what I have for ~ $5300 [Small + Large].
These are not even the Super-Bowl weeks which go for much more [Large: $3K+].
This makes it a no brainer that we would continue as-is.

BTW: The MF is $0.62796¢/DCP making the case even more to stick within VSN for WKV.

WKV V WLR Value: We also own multiple 2BR-WLR PLAT+. Surprised that WLR accrues 4950-DCP [MF: ~$1650], while WKV accrues 4050-DCP [MF: ~$1725].
However, looking forward to enroll as all 6 x WKV contracts [all resale] are qualified/retro'd.

 

[daviator]

This is from one of the facebook groups, but shows what fees go away when you go to the higher Club Fee amount. The numbers in the bottom right are the fees for different levels in the MVC DC program. It doesn't seem to indicate the VSN fee going away. So not sure what that means. It would also be great if housekeeping fees were eliminated. I notice they also have the old fee shown for the II exchange fee (it went up $10 in January).
View attachment 50504

As a 4* Elite, I don’t have to pay for Bonvoy conversion, I have only paid to bank once in 20 years, and I’ve never paid a cancellation fee. I’ve also never paid for housekeeping, never used VSN Select, and only traded through interval once. So while the new, higher club dues aren’t going to kill me, I don’t really see that as providing me with a lot more value at least in terms of fees.

ironic that with Vistana, having more ownerships resulted in lower fees, but with Marriott, more ownerships/higher status means a higher fee!

 

[daviator]

Two other questions that occur to me: the banking deadlines under the Marriott program are worse for elite owners; today I have until October 1 to bank, and it looks like under the new program I have only until August 31. Will these new deadlines apply even if not electing DP?

i assume the crazy Bonvoy points conversion rules (you can only convert 65% of your points or some such) only apply if you actually elect DPs and then change your mind and want to convert? I realize that Bonvoy points aren’t a great value but sometimes they have been a good choice for me. I hope I am not losing the ability to do so if I choose to.

 

[dioxide45]

Two other questions that occur to me: the banking deadlines under the Marriott program are worse for elite owners; today I have until October 1 to bank, and it looks like under the new program I have only until August 31. Will these new deadlines apply even if not electing DP?

i assume the crazy Bonvoy points conversion rules (you can only convert 65% of your points or some such) only apply if you actually elect DPs and then change your mind and want to convert? I realize that Bonvoy points aren’t a great value but sometimes they have been a good choice for me. I hope I am not losing the ability to do so if I choose to.

I would expect the current VSN banking rules to apply when banking StarOptions. If you elect DC points for one or more of your VOIs, then the DC banking deadline would apply when banking those Club Points.

As for electing Bonvoy points on Club Points, this is only something that DC Trust point owners can do. Elected enrolled points don't have this option as you convert to Bonvoy based on your underlying week or HomeOptions. That is at least how it works for MVC weeks and how I would expect it to work for elected Club Points from Vistana ownerships.

 

[CPNY]

Here's some pictures along with the post (not mine) from a FB group. It was posted by an owner who recently did a virtual presentation. Pictures detail VSN/Consolidated Club dues along with some benefits.

ETA: I just realized @dioxide45 posted one of the pictures already, but I'll leave it here along with the other pictures.
----------------------------
We are 4 * Vistana owners and received an email from Marriott Vacation Club with a request for a virtual meeting. Here are the results: Vistana will stay the same with the same rules without change as per our contracts. As owners, we can choose to never use a Marriott property and keep doing things the way we have always done. MVC is merely another way for us to vacation like II except when choosing to elect Vacation Club Points (Marriott), we would have to trade our entire unit, ie 2 BR lockoff, not just one half. Our Westin Mission Hills 2 BR platinum plus = 3150 Vacation Club Points; Lagunamar 2 BR platinum plus = 4950 Vacation Club Points and our 63,000 Adventuras options = 2865. Our total in the Marriott system equals 10,200 making us Presidential. I attached a picture of benefits for this level. We are now titanium elite in Bonvoy as long as we still own what we own.
2. Our fees should go down as we all will fall under Marriott for these charges. I have attached charts to show this. Our sales person thought the actual fee for us would be around $300 when things are finalized in EARLY SUMMER. (No June date was mentioned but will only say it is supposed to happen in early summer for the hard launch.)
3. Misc.: If we elected to convert one unit into Vacation Club Points and did not use all the VCP's, they can be banked. We can use 2 years of VCP's to go on a cruise, etc. With Marriott, we can book 13 months in advance for any number of nights. (only if you elected to convert)
4. These are just some notes. We could have asked anything but once we knew things would not change for us on the Vistana side, it really didn't matter. Her soft sell was for us to add more Adventuras to have total options equaling 148,100 like a 2 BR. We did not buy. She was very nice and had been with MVC for 23 years as a Presidential level owner herself. She told us they can no longer sell Westin Flex as of a couple of days ago. She can only sell Adventuras and Sheraton Flex at this point and is unsure how much longer. I hope this is helpful

A lot of info making its way to TUG from Facebook. It used to be the other way around lol.

Unrelated: As far as the double club fees some are saying should be paid. That makes no sense. That would turn people off from participating in both programs and would reduce the amount of converted inventory in the DCE. Also think about all of the owners out there who are generally clueless about what they own, They won’t enroll and pay for both. Now imagine increasing every single VSN owners fees to the higher fee without a choice. It’s an easy way to increase revenue without much pushback. People will accept the high membership fee because of the removal of those other dreaded fees. Fees like banking, converting to bonvoy, cancellation,etc. even if someone never paid those other fees because they never took advantage of the options associated with each fee, they would see it as a value because if they ever did take advantage of those benefits, they wouldn’t be charged an additional fee.

 

[DanCali]

BTW: The MF is $0.62796¢/DCP making the case even more to stick within VSN for WKV.

On that front it's not as bad as you suggest.

WKV 2BR MF is $1726 for 2022.
So MF/DC point is about $0.43

That's not bad for compared to MVC Weeks - probably around the middle of the pack, or maybe slightly on the lower (better) end. For example, my NCV Plat Week is $1433 MF and 3475 points - so about $0.41 per point and comparable to WKV.

But since I don't convert NCV Platinum to points because the rental value is a superior option ($3000 for which I can rent ~4300 points), then doing it with WKV makes even less sense.

 

[JIMinNC]

I was talking about Maui being booked within minutes for MVC’s Maui. All the inventory released at 13 or 12 months gets booked ASAP.

My experience in booking Marriott Maui Ocean Club with both points and booking our week, is that all inventory goes fairly quickly - both points and weeks - for peak demand times like whale season Jan-Mar. I've found 12-month points inventory generally shows up online the day before the "official" release date, and our last two bookings with points for Maui (Feb 2022 and Feb 2023) were booked prior to the time when the inventory is supposed to actually be released. The Feb 2023 booking was booked about 18 hours prior to the official 9am Friday release time. Within a few hours after the "official" release day/time, most of the best stuff is gone. I've seen the same thing happen with our weeks bookings. Within a few minutes/hours, it's usually gone.

So, I don't think it's a case of there not being enough inventory in the Trust or the MVC Exchange, it's just Maui is VERY high demand.

 

[daviator]

I would expect the current VSN banking rules to apply when banking StarOptions. If you elect DC points for one or more of your VOIs, then the DC banking deadline would apply when banking those Club Points.

As for electing Bonvoy points on Club Points, this is only something that DC Trust point owners can do. Elected enrolled points don't have this option as you convert to Bonvoy based on your underlying week or HomeOptions. That is at least how it works for MVC weeks and how I would expect it to work for elected Club Points from Vistana ownerships.

Oh, got it. I was confused about the two banking deadlines, but I guess I forgot that some people own Club Points (only) with no underlying ownership. So what you say makes sense.