CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[SueDonJ]

All I did was quote and agree with part of post 709. You delete me and leave it up. What goes...

George

As moderator:

Your post was a throwaway negative comment. Post #709 is a detailed possible comparison of SVV and DC value made by an owner about his/her particular ownership, a comparison that all owners should be thinking about so that they may be somewhat prepared when the time comes to make a decision.

This isn't a case of moderation for the sake of calling out individual posters for egregious violations, George. It's just the way that we're approaching this fluid topic for now (especially with Denise's attention understandably elsewhere.) I'm not going back through the pages and pages in either thread looking to call out anybody in particular, only doing some clean-up as we go along from here to keep the threads on point.

 

[DanCali]

Regarding "SKIM":

I see a lot of descriptions of "skim" in this thread as "you can't book what you own". I think that is too much of a simplistic way to think about it and I will illustrate that using two Marriott weeks I own.

(1) My Newport Coast Villas (NCV) 2BR Plat Plus Fixed Week 26 converts to 5300 points. In the case of a single fixed week, it's easy to see - I got 5300 points and it would take me 5675 points to book that week. So, I lost 6.6% to "skim". This is indeed a case of "you can't book what you own".

(2) But it's more complicated with the NCV Platinum weeks I own.

A NCV Platinum week (weeks 23-51, excluding 26) converts to 3475 points.

7 of the weeks in the season require 4225 points to book (early summer and late summer)
7 of the weeks in the season require 4725 points to book (mid summer).
14 of the weeks in the season require 2900 points to book (mid September onward)

So if I have 3475 points did I get skimmed??? I can't book a summer week but I can actually book 8 nights in September to December, so converting is valuable if that's when I like to go....

The right way to think about skim, in my view, is what is the average number of points required to book a week in the season you own? If you got that number of points it'd mean that "points in = points out" just like Vistana. If all owners converted, they'd have enough points to book all the inventory. If you get less, then there is skim.

In the case of NCV Platinum weeks the average number of points needed to book a week in the season is about 3690 (weighted average of point values above: (7x4225 + 7x4725 + 14*2900) divided by 28 weeks in the season34). But owners converting a platinum week to points actually get 3475 points (about 5.8% less). Neither 3690 or 3475 would be enough to book a summer week with points but both would be good to book 8 nights in the fall. However, 3690 would be "fair" with no skim, even if you can't book every week in the season you own - in fact, it would not be feasible to offer any more than that. But 3475 points shortchanges owners by 215 points each time they convert to points. That's skimming.

Under this definition, the skim in the DC has been around 5%-7% since inception. I suspect once these tables are available, we'll see the same thing with Vistana weeks.

 

[SueDonJ]

Regarding "SKIM":

I see a lot of descriptions of "skim" in this thread as "you can't book what you own". I think that is too much of a simplistic way to think about it and I will illustrate that using two Marriott weeks I own.

(1) My Newport Coast Villas (NCV) 2BR Plat Plus Fixed Week 26 converts to 5300 points. In the case of a single fixed week, it's easy to see - I got 5300 points and it would take me 5675 points to book that week. So, I lost 6.6% to "skim". This is indeed a case of "you can't book what you own".

(2) But it's more complicated with the NCV Platinum weeks I own.

A NCV Platinum week (weeks 23-51, excluding 26) converts to 3475 points.

7 of the weeks in the season require 4225 points to book (early summer and late summer)
7 of the weeks in the season require 4725 points to book (mid summer).
14 of the weeks in the season require 2900 points to book (mid September onward)

So if I have 3475 points did I get skimmed??? I can't book a summer week but I can actually book 8 nights in September to December, so converting is valuable if that's when I like to go....

The right way to think about skim, in my view, is what is the average number of points required to book a week in the season you own? If you got that number of points it'd mean that "points in = points out" just like Vistana. If all owners converted, they'd have enough points to book all the inventory. If you get less, then there is skim.

In the case of NCV Platinum weeks the average number of points needed to book a week in the season is about 3690 (weighted average of point values above: (7x4225 + 7x4725 + 14*2900) divided by 28 weeks in the season34). But owners converting a platinum week to points actually get 3475 points (about 5.8% less). Neither 3690 or 3475 would be enough to book a summer week with points but both would be good to book 8 nights in the fall. However, 3690 would be "fair" with no skim, even if you can't book every week in the season you own - in fact, it would not be feasible to offer any more than that. But 3475 points shortchanges owners by 215 points each time they convert to points. That's skimming.

Another way of looking at "skim," the way I always have, is in making the comparison between the value you can get out of any other exchange company and what you can get via the DC Exchange Company. For my particular high-DC-point-value non-lock-off 3BR Weeks that only ever exchanged to 2BR units in II, the DC is much less of a skim for my Weeks than II's skim.

Our two posts are examples of how important it is for each owner to consider how their particular ownership will be impacted by DC values and usage rules. The DC certainly doesn't work for everyone, but neither do blanket statements about it being either The Best! or The Worst! timeshare product that's ever been offered by any timeshare company. The decision to participate is going to require some focused thinking, that's for sure.

 

[dioxide45]

The best way to determine if a reservation should be made via DC or VSN is to look at the conversion ratios. Let's look at a specific scenario;

@jabberwocky WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.

Say you want to go to Scottsdale SDO 2BR for a week in July. That is only 1,450 Club Points. That same week would cost 56,300 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 38:827:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.

Another way to look at it is to look at how many weeks you could get with StarOptions. In the case of SDO above, you can only get about 3 weeks from the 176,700 StarOptions but if you look at Club Points, you can get over five weeks.

176,700 / 56,300 = 3.14
8,325 / 1450 = 5.74

This is of course only one scenario and the analysis would need to be done for every week or day in the system for any given reservation. If only someone could come up with a tool to make it easy

 

[pchung6]

My head really spins after going through all the VSN MVC comments. This new DC chart is so complicated and confusing. Why would anyone wants to convert from VSN? Especially if I can't book back what I own, it is something I really don't understand. What is that skim in DC and I don't think I never heard "skim" in VSN SO chart. Who determines the skim, any formula behind that? It is not transparent and so many grey areas they can hide (pocket more profit?) If I want a lower season stay, I can just book a cheap II Getaway. No matter which way I look at it, I will just stay with VSN as long as I can. MVC is just way too complicated.

 

[Eric B]

If they do set it up so that mandatory resale weeks are included, it seems to me that it opens up another set of exchange rates for me to consider in arbitraging my timeshare usage. Complication is good for folks that have access to multiple exchange systems.

 

[dioxide45]

My head really spins after going through all the VSN MVC comments. This new DC chart is so complicated and confusing. Why would anyone wants to convert from VSN? Especially if I can't book back what I own, it is something I really don't understand. What is that skim in DC and I don't think I never heard "skim" in VSN SO chart. Who determines the skim, any formula behind that? It is not transparent and so many grey areas they can hide (pocket more profit?) If I want a lower season stay, I can just book a cheap II Getaway. No matter which way I look at it, I will just stay with VSN as long as I can. MVC is just way too complicated.

There is no skim in VSN. What you get for a week is what you pay for the same week. Hilton works in a similar way. The difference between Hilton and VSN vs Marriott is that Hilton and Vistana have fees. Whether they be housekeeping fees, reservation fees, cancellation fees, banking fees. Those fees cover the cost to administer the program and additional housekeeping's. With Marriott, you pay the price in a little less time. The fees are invisible because that fee is taken in skim. In Vistana, broken weeks usually mean you end up with a few StarOptions left over at the end of the year. I know we have 600 we won't be able to use and will just lose. I think we lost 2,000 last year. It just didn't make sense to bank them and pay the $109 banking fee. WIth Marriott, there is no banking fee, so you can just bank 50 points if you want.

In the end, overall there is a skim somewhere. Marriott just shows it in the points values where others have it in fees or lost points.

 

[pchung6]

Say you want to go to Scottsdale WKV 2BR for a week in July. That is only 1,450 Club Points. That same week would cost 56,300 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 38:827:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.

Another way to look at it is to look at how many weeks you could get with StarOptions. In the case of WKV above, you can only get about 3 weeks from the 176,700 StarOptions but if you look at Club Points, you can get over five weeks.

The way I look at it:
1 week of Hawaii Oceanfront > 5 weeks of desert in the summer. Seriously, don't do it, it is torturing. The middle of summer desert is $299 or less in Getaway.

 

[pchung6]

In the end, overall there is a skim somewhere. Marriott just shows it in the points values where others have it in fees or lost points.

Got it. Thanks for the detail explanation.

 

[DanCali]

My head really spins after going through all the VSN MVC comments. This new DC chart is so complicated and confusing. Why would anyone wants to convert from VSN? Especially if I can't book back what I own, it is something I really don't understand. What is that skim in DC and I don't think I never heard "skim" in VSN SO chart. Who determines the skim, any formula behind that? It is not transparent and so many grey areas they can hide (pocket more profit?) If I want a lower season stay, I can just book a cheap II Getaway. No matter which way I look at it, I will just stay with VSN as long as I can. MVC is just way too complicated.

Regarding skim, you can read my recent post (#727). You will generally not convert to points to book what you own (although sometimes it's worth doing for an off-season week). But think of skim as a 5%-7% transaction fee MVC takes from the points your week is actually worth. Not much different from an II exchange fee.

We've owned with both systems since pre-2010 and felt the same way initially. After the DC launched in 2010, we held off on enrolling our MVC resale pre-2010 weeks for quite a few years even though then enrollment fee was "only" $2000 compared to a $30K+ spend for enrolling post 2010 weeks. The catalyst for us to enroll was that they were going to increase the number of points required for "Executive" from 6500 to 7000 and our 2 NCV Platinum weeks were 6950 points so it made sense to get grandfathered at the 6500 level.

I don't convert my MVC weeks to points often. I like to maximize the value of my weeks and, in my case, it makes more sense to rent out my week and use the cash to rent points from others, but being enrolled gives me the ability to rent points from others.

The ability to book in both systems has enhanced some of our vacations - we've booked trips combining St. John (VSN) and St. Thomas (DC points), and WPORV (VSN) and Poipu (DC Points) for example, and MVC does have resorts in many locations you cannot book with VSN in general. I always try to do things in the most efficient manner to maximize ownership value, but having access to both systems is not a bad thing. You can choose to use it often, sometimes, or never. The extra ~$200 in Club fees we've been paying annually justifies the extra potential flexibility.

 

[dsmrp]

There is no skim in VSN. What you get for a week is what you pay for the same week. Hilton works in a similar way. The difference between Hilton and VSN vs Marriott is that Hilton and Vistana have fees. Whether they be housekeeping fees, reservation fees, cancellation fees, banking fees. Those fees cover the cost to administer the program and additional housekeeping's. With Marriott, you pay the price in a little less time. The fees are invisible because that fee is taken in skim. In Vistana, broken weeks usually mean you end up with a few StarOptions left over at the end of the year. I know we have 600 we won't be able to use and will just lose. I think we lost 2,000 last year. It just didn't make sense to bank them and pay the $109 banking fee. WIth Marriott, there is no banking fee, so you can just bank 50 points if you want.

In the end, overall there is a skim somewhere. Marriott just shows it in the points values where others have it in fees or lost points.

The VSN and Marriott club fees are fairly comparable for multiple VOI owners, as I posted earlier. Marriott might be $50-$100 more than VSN depending upon ownership level. However even with the VSN banking and housekeeping fees, VSN is IMO, less expensive than the Marriott skim. Vacation time in the form of points/options, resort days is much more expensive than administrative fees.
I'd rather get more vacation time.

This applies mainly to the lower MF cost locations such as Orlando, Arizona etc. The more desirably located resorts with commensurably higher MFs, e.g. Hawaii, St John, prime ski weeks, will do better in Marriott's DC.

I've been sort of expecting the reduced vacation usage in Marriott's currency, since I have lower cost traders in VSN. That's why I bought a Hawaii location in another TS system ;-)

 

[dioxide45]

The way I look at it:
1 week of Hawaii Oceanfront > 5 weeks of desert in the summer. Seriously, don't do it, it is torturing. The middle of summer desert is $299 or less in Getaway.

That was of course just one scenario. The numbers could be done against any planned reservation. Costs of getaways would also need to be taken into consideration. I actually don't mind the summer in the desert. Heading back there for five weeks this summer!

 

[Mowogo]

That was of course just one scenario. The numbers could be done against any planned reservation. Costs of getaways would also need to be taken into consideration. I actually don't mind the summer in the desert. Heading back there for five weeks this summer!

I’ve done Palm Springs and Vegas in the heat of summer and as long as you have good pool access

 

[rickandcindy23]

I’ve done Palm Springs and Vegas in the heat of summer and as long as you have good pool access

AND AC that works in the unit helps, too.

I wouldn't go to Palm Desert or Vegas in the summer. Nor would I go to Phoenix in the summer. But Rick is up for Phoenix and asked about us going this summer. Nope.

 

[VacationForever]

AND AC that works in the unit helps, too.

I wouldn't go to Palm Desert or Vegas in the summer. Nor would I go to Phoenix in the summer. But Rick is up for Phoenix and asked about us going this summer. Nope.

Vegas is 5 to 10 degrees cooler than Palm Desert and Phoenix.

 

[pchung6]

I’ve done Palm Springs and Vegas in the heat of summer and as long as you have good pool access

I was in Palm Desert at WDW during July 4th last year. It was like 120, I couldn’t even go out until like 7pm and pool closed at 8pm if I remember correctly. I couldn’t even breathing during the day. Stay inside the room all day is no fun. I went because I had an II Covid cancellation certificate expiring in July. In Hawaii, I can have my margarita and poke and sitting or laying on the beach chair all day.

 

[Bill R]

I sincerely doubt you will ever see more resorts developed in the Sheraton, Westin or Vistana name. In fact, my belief is that MVW will eventually rebrand everything as Marriott Vacation Club. Maybe not right away, but at some point in the future.

When Marriott introduced the DC, there was a reasonable fee to join. Like you I initially felt I would never use it. After all I was adept at exchanging weeks and could get better value in most instances using the old weeks exchange program, and I still can if I want too. But I bought in early to protect my usage rights should I change my mind. Turns out that was a very good decision on my part. Over the years the flexibility has proven more valuable to us as our lives have changed as has our employment situations. One can never underestimate the value of keeping your options open.

The ability to book shorter stays, elect midweek check in dates, bank/borrow points and book specific view categories has proven invaluable for us. Don’t so easily discount all the additional locations ILG owners will gain access too once they have the option.

Talking with TUG members and speaking to the general timeshare owner population is like talking to the educated and the uneducated. There are a lot more uneducated than there are TUG members. The percentage of TUG members jumping at the opportunity will likely be much smaller than the non-TUG owners, and that group of owners far out numbers those of us on TUG.

This BBS is very helpful for long-owning TS owners like myself, but just FYI, we have all of this same benefits currently as Vistana owners. I am sure I am nowhere as sophisticated an owner as many here, but we have owned OF at WKORN for a while and I think, like St. John, folks buy/own there because that's where they want to go. Having said that, there are a few MVC properties that we are pretty interested in...

 

[CVC]

The best way to determine if a reservation should be made via DC or VSN is to look at the conversion ratios. Let's look at a specific scenario;

@jabberwocky WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.

Say you want to go to Scottsdale SDO 2BR for a week in July. That is only 1,450 Club Points. That same week would cost 56,300 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 38:827:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.

Another way to look at it is to look at how many weeks you could get with StarOptions. In the case of SDO above, you can only get about 3 weeks from the 176,700 StarOptions but if you look at Club Points, you can get over five weeks.

176,700 / 56,300 = 3.14
8,325 / 1450 = 5.74

This is of course only one scenario and the analysis would need to be done for every week or day in the system for any given reservation. If only someone could come up with a tool to make it easy

Could you clarify where you got the ratio of 21.225:1 for the KORVN OF? Has that been posted? The numbers posted we saw, Westin was 28:1. How are you going the opposite direction; from Marriott DC to SO? Just trying to figure out the different conversions and how they are being figured out. The lowest conversion we have seen is Nanae at 23:1, but that was pulled to be tweaked. Thanks!

 

[dioxide45]

My head really spins after going through all the VSN MVC comments. This new DC chart is so complicated and confusing. Why would anyone wants to convert from VSN? Especially if I can't book back what I own, it is something I really don't understand. What is that skim in DC and I don't think I never heard "skim" in VSN SO chart. Who determines the skim, any formula behind that? It is not transparent and so many grey areas they can hide (pocket more profit?) If I want a lower season stay, I can just book a cheap II Getaway. No matter which way I look at it, I will just stay with VSN as long as I can. MVC is just way too complicated.

The same is true for Platinum season though too.

WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.

Say you want to go to Scottsdale WKV 2BR for a week in March (prime spring break). I can't read the dates, but I think that is 5,400 Club Points. That same week would cost 148,100 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 27:425:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.

By taking club points of 8,325 and spending 5,400 of them for WKV, you end up with 2,925 points left over. That is enough for another week somewhere, where in VSN they only have 28,600 StarOptions left over. Might get them a week in super low season somewhere. Of course you are relying on a Westin Kierland Villas owner also electing Club Points. Perhaps they find a scenario that works well for them. Maybe Lagunamar or something else. It all then becomes very fluid as you aren't relying on direct exchanges between each set of inventory, but many owners throwing their weeks into the pool.

I do think that VSN will have good inventory for quite some time and it will take some time for a lot of VSN owners to warm up to electing Club Points. Some will see value and others won't.

 

[pchung6]

Say you want to go to Scottsdale WKV 2BR for a week in March (prime spring break). I can't read the dates, but I think that is 5,400 Club Points. That same week would cost 148,100 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 27:425:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.

This makes sense. We just need to see if there are enough WKV platinum+ owners to elect Marriott points. Most owners currently use WKV for internal arbitrage, aka to book 141k pts 2br in Maui, not the other way around. We will see WKV owners will see enough value with the new points chart. I feel they will still stay with VSN to maximize WKV value in VSN.

 

[dioxide45]

This makes sense. We just need to see if there are enough WKV platinum+ owners to elect Marriott points. Most owners currently use WKV for internal arbitrage, aka to book 141k pts 2br in WKORVN, not the other way around. We will see WKV owners will see enough value with the new points chart. I feel they will still stay with VSN to maximize WKV value in VSN.

I think it will start out that way. It did when Marriott switched over to DC. Many people said they would never deposit their week for points. Some still do to this day, us included. For many it is just an automatic process for them to go in and elect the DC points now. They aren't worried as much about squeezing every point they can (yes this does contradict prior statements). They just look to the simplicity and ease of booking. Some Vistana owners will like the additional resorts. Who knows when, but 5, 10 or more years from now, more owners may be taking Club Points than sticking it out in VSN.

Then over time there will also be all of the new resales that will be effectively locked out of the combined program without a big point purchase. So those will also be the people that continue to play in VSN. I don't have any major concerns about using our StarOptions for the places we like to go.

 

[byeloe]

Say you want to go to Scottsdale WKV 2BR for a week in March (prime spring break). I can't read the dates, but I think that is 5,400 Club Points

Do we know how many Club points a WKV Platinum+ 2BD owner will receive if they Elect?

 

[Mroze]

Do we know how many Club points a WKV Platinum+ 2BD owner will receive if they Elect?

Looking at the sheet posted [not very clear] it looks like "it depends".

Within VSN: WKV PLATINUM+ is weeks 1->21 & 50->52
Based on the sheet:

• If your WEEK-# falls between JAN-27 & APR-06 you accrue 5400 DCP.
• If you have WEEK-#15 [also PLAT+] you accrue 3800-DCP
• If you have WEEK-# 50 or #1 [also PLAT+] you accrue 2950-DCP

Unless something changes, it looks like all PLATINUM+ owners will not be treated the same.
It's a luck of the draw where your WEEK-# falls which is not going to please many.

NOTE: My assumption above is wrong. It was corrected in POST #750 below.

 

[byeloe]

Looking at the sheet posted [not very clear] it looks like "it depends".

Within VSN: WKV PLATINUM+ is weeks 1->21 & 50->52
Based on the sheet:

• If your WEEK-# falls between JAN-27 & APR-06 you accrue 5400 DCP.
• If you have WEEK-#15 [also PLAT+] you accrue 3800-DCP
• If you have WEEK-# 50 or #1 [also PLAT+] you accrue 2950-DCP

Unless something changes, it looks like all PLATINUM+ owners will not be treated the same.
It's a luck of the draw where your WEEK-# falls which is not going to please many.

Is that the week on the deed?

 

[dioxide45]

Looking at the sheet posted [not very clear] it looks like "it depends".

Within VSN: WKV PLATINUM+ is weeks 1->21 & 50->52
Based on the sheet:

• If your WEEK-# falls between JAN-27 & APR-06 you accrue 5400 DCP.
• If you have WEEK-#15 [also PLAT+] you accrue 3800-DCP
• If you have WEEK-# 50 or #1 [also PLAT+] you accrue 2950-DCP

Unless something changes, it looks like all PLATINUM+ owners will not be treated the same.
It's a luck of the draw where your WEEK-# falls which is not going to please many.

These are the number of points needed to book a week. I don't recall where I saw it, but seem to remember something in the 4,800 or 4,400 range. All Plat+ weeks will elect at the same amount. Just the cost to book varies by the week.