Starwood II Trade Test [Deposits under new rules show 50% fewer units!]

[Fredm]

The trade test only has real meaning if you compare the same deposit under the old rules and under the new rules. That is why Pacman's trade test vs. mine is so interesting.

If you look at each resort, you will see that PacMan cannot see all the units either - for instance I see 2 - 2 bd. at Maui Schooner and PacMan only sees 1. That makes no sense!

Denise,

You are searching with a week 10. Way more clout than a week 51 at SDO. Week 10 is peak prime season in the desert.

Nonetheless, you are right. If trying to gauge old vs new system, you should be depositing the same thing.

 

[DeniseM]

Denise,

You are searching with a week 10. Way more clout than a week 51 at SDO. Week 10 is peak prime season in the desert.

Nonetheless, you are right. If trying to gauge old vs new system, you should be depositing the same thing.

Fred - That is exactly the point: We are comparing the highest old deposit, to the highest new deposit. (Week 10 would get the same valuation under the new system as week 51 - it's the generic Plat valuation.)

PacMan can't deposit week 10 or 51 - he has to take their "valuation" and the value they gave his week 51 is the highest you can get for SDO under the new rules - BUT it exchanges significantly lower than my "best" deposit.

Under the new depositing rules, the "best" deposit is far weaker than the "best" deposit under the old rules.

 

[Fredm]

Fred - That is exactly the point: We are comparing the highest old deposit, to the highest new deposit. (Week 10 would get the same valuation under the new system as week 51 - it's the generic Plat valuation.)

PacMan can't deposit week 10 or 51 - he has to take their "valuation" and the value they gave his week 51 is the highest you can get for SDO under the new rules - BUT it exchanges significantly lower than my "best" deposit.

Under the new depositing rules, the "best" deposit is far weaker than the "best" deposit under the old rules.

OK, got it.

The best of the best gets retained by Starwood. That's the bottom line.

 

[Troopers]

Tom -

PacMan and I have done trade tests at the exact same time, with the exact same units- twice. We are not using shell units - we are both using deposited weeks:

SDO, Lg. 1 bdm., 1-deeded week 51, 1-deeded week 52

We prearranged to search at 7:30 last night, and 8 am this morning.

So this is a direct comparison of two identical units - one deposited under the old rules (mine) and one deposited under the new rules (his.)

My week is a (high demand) March deposit - his is the new "Plat Valuation," which is the current highest value for SDO. So we are comparing apples to apples - the highest SDO deposit, under both new rules and old rules.

Under the old rules, I can see twice as many resorts and units as he can - that's significant.

Could this be because SDO deposits are overstocked? I'm not sure if that's true or not. But it seems to me that's popular here.

 

[DeniseM]

Could this be because SDO deposits are overstocked? I'm not sure if that's true or not. But it seems to me that's popular here.

NO - If that was true, my week wouldn't exchange any better than Pacmans.

It is because under the new rules, Starwood/II are ASSIGNING a different trading value to the weeks deposited now.

Under the old system I could choose and deposit a high season week of my choice and therefore get the highest trading value possible at SDO.

Under the new rules, Starwood is assigning an average value for the whole season to all weeks in that season. So they took ALL the weeks in Plat season, came up with an average value, and that is the best exchange value you can get now.

 

[Troopers]

NO - If that was true, my week wouldn't exchange any better than Pacmans.

It is because under the new rules, Starwood/II are ASSIGNING a different trading value to the weeks deposited now.

Under the old system I could choose and deposit a high season week of my choice and therefore get the highest trading value possible at SDO.

Under the new rules, Starwood is assigning an average value for the whole season to all weeks in that season. So they took ALL the weeks in Plat season, came up with an average value, and that is the best exchange value you can get now.

But your week is already deposited where as Pacmans is not.

Exchange value is not only determined by the week deposited. It is also determined by the supply and the demand.

You have already deposited your SDO week (old rule). Your deposited week is one of many deposited SDO week available for exchange. There is adequate (or excess) supply of SDO weeks (I just checked and there are dozens of weeks available). Supply is high.

Now, here comes Pacman and performs a search with SDO (new rule). The system knows that supply is already high, so it decreases its exchange value because the demand is not meeting the supply.

Perhaps we can do a test with WKORV?

 

[rickandcindy23]

Pacman did deposit his unit, Troopers.

Denise has 20 weeks at high-quality resorts.

Pacman has 17 weeks (I counted and he has 17 listed).

Pretty similar, if you ask me, but I realize these were done at the same time.

The higher quality resorts only show up for me with SDO, but with Denise, there are more units because she is pulling more of the lesser-rated resorts, also with SDO. I don't understand it.

 

[Stefa]

But your week is already deposited where as Pacmans is not.

Exchange value is not only determined by the week deposited. It is also determined by the supply and the demand.

You have already deposited your SDO week (old rule). Your deposited week is one of many deposited SDO week available for exchange. There is adequate (or excess) supply of SDO weeks (I just checked and there are dozens of weeks available). Supply is high.

Now, here comes Pacman and performs a search with SDO (new rule). The system knows that supply is already high, so it decreases its exchange value because the demand is not meeting the supply.

Perhaps we can do a test with WKORV?

I just did a search and there is actually not much availability during platinum season at SDO which is what Pacman is searching with. There are only a couple of large 1br which is what he deposited (if I am reading the posts correctly).

 

[Troopers]

Pacman did deposit his unit, Troopers.

Denise has 20 weeks at high-quality resorts.

Pacman has 17 weeks (I counted and he has 17 listed).

Pretty similar, if you ask me, but I realize these were done at the same time.

The higher quality resorts only show up for me with SDO, but with Denise, there are more units because she is pulling more of the lesser-rated resorts, also with SDO. I don't understand it.

Confusing! Ok, I thought Pacman was searching with an undeposited week. I guess the next question is when where the deposits made? Pacman’s was recent. Denise, when did you deposit your week?

 

[Troopers]

I just did a search and there is actually not much availability during platinum season at SDO which is what Pacman is searching with. There are only a couple of large 1br which is what he deposited (if I am reading the posts correctly).

I was able to see more than 20 platinum weeks with my deposited WKORV 1 bdrm. Platinum weeks being weeks 1-21 and 50-52.

 

[Stefa]

I was able to see more than 20 platinum weeks with my deposited WKORV 1 bdrm. Platinum weeks being weeks 1-21 and 50-52.

I only searched through week 17. Oops.

Either way, I don't see how it matters since Denise is using a March week and there were none of those online. If Denise deposited her March week today (I know, Starwood no longer allows this) she would have better trading power because there is no supply for her week.

 

[DeniseM]

Confusing! Ok, I thought Pacman was searching with an undeposited week. I guess the next question is when where the deposits made? Pacman’s was recent. Denise, when did you deposit your week?

Troopers - I think you are missing the whole point. We DON'T want to compare weeks that were deposited at the same time - If Pacman and I deposited our weeks at the same time, there would be no comparison of old vs. new rules, because they both would have been deposited under the same rules. We are trying to see how trading power has CHANGED, since the new depositing rules went into place.

Pacman deposited a Plat week that gets the highest current valuation for an SDO Resort, under the NEW rules.

I deposited a March week which was considered to have the highest trade power, under the OLD rules.

Now we are comparing the two weeks, each with the highest trading power under their respective rules, to see how trading power has changed, since the rules changed.​

Checking the exchange power of WKORV is a mute point, because no one (that knows what they are doing) would exchange WKORV with II, so all you have is undeposited shell weeks to compare. What you would need for a real comparison of old rules vs. new rules, would be an old rules WKORV deposit to compare to a new rules WKORV deposit, and you aren't going to find any....

I was able to see more than 20 platinum weeks with my deposited WKORV 1 bdrm. Platinum weeks being weeks 1-21 and 50-52.

Yeah - but there isn't a single March week - what do you think Pacman's trading power would be if he was allowed to deposit a March week? That is the whole point - I was able to deposit a week for which there was high demand - Pacman wasn't, and that is why my trading power is so much better...

 

[Troopers]

Troopers - I think you are missing the whole point. We DON'T want to compare weeks that were deposited at the same time - If Pacman and I deposited our weeks at the same time, there would be no comparison of old vs. new rules, because they both would have been deposited under the same rules. We are trying to see how trading power has CHANGED, since the new depositing rules went into place.

Pacman deposited a Plat week that gets the highest current valuation for an SDO Resort, under the NEW rules.

I deposited a March week which was considered to have the highest trade power, under the OLD rules.

Now we are comparing the two weeks, each with the highest trading power under their respective rules, to see how trading power has changed, since the rules changed.​

Checking the exchange power of WKORV is a mute point, because no one (that knows what they are doing) would exchange WKORV with II, so all you have is undeposited shell weeks to compare. What you would need for a real comparison of old rules vs. new rules, would be an old rules WKORV deposit to compare to a new rules WKORV deposit, and you aren't going to find any....

No, I get it Denise.

If I wasn't already clear, I thought Pacman’s new rule search was based on a NON deposited week. Thus, my thoughts in post #81. My bad.

Doesn’t how far in advance one deposits affect trading power? I believe it does that why I want to know how far in advance the deposits were made.

When did you deposit your March week? A year out? 9 months out? Likewise for Pacman. Pacman recently deposited but how far out?

Are there any other factors that we're ignoring?

I have an old rules WKORV deposit. I also thought this thread was testing new rules, deposited or not. It may not be as helpful but nevertheless, still helpful.

 

[Troopers]

Yeah - but there isn't a single March week - what do you think Pacman's trading power would be if he was allowed to deposit a March week? That is the whole point - I was able to deposit a week for which there was high demand - Pacman wasn't, and that is why my trading power is so much better...

I don't know...that's what we're trying to figure out, right? If he was able to, it looks like he would have more trading power...assuming all other factors are equal.

 

[DeniseM]

When did you deposit your March week? A year out? 9 months out? Likewise for Pacman. Pacman recently deposited but how far out?

Under the new rules, there is no early or late deposit - because there is no underlying reservation - they don't give you a real week to deposit - they just assign your week a trade value, so it no longer matters when you deposit under the new rules. They don't deposit a real week for you, until after you make an exchange, and Starwood can pick any old week it chooses.

So, yes, I definitely did have an advantage under the old rules, because I was able to deposit at 12 mos. out - and that is just another example of how the old rules gave the owners higher trading power. Now owners just have to accept the trade valuation that Starwood gives them, they cannot influence the value of their deposit by depositing early, or depositing a high demand week.

 

[Troopers]

Under the new rules, there is no early or late deposit - because there is no underlying reservation - they don't give you a real week to deposit - they just assign your week a trade value, so it no longer matters when you deposit under the new rules. They don't deposit a real week for you, until after you make an exchange, and Starwood can pick any old week it chooses.

So, yes, I definitely did have an advantage under the old rules, because I was able to deposit at 12 mos. out - and that is just another example of how the old rules gave the owners higher trading power. Now owners just have to accept the trade valuation that Starwood gives them, they cannot influence the value of their deposit by depositing early, or depositing a high demand week.

Are you sure about this? Are you saying if one deposites a week (under the new rules) say 30 days before check-in it's the same as the week was deposited a year before check-in? I thought trading power declines with time with a minimum of 60 days out.

I understand that all Starwood owners, not just SVN owners, have to accept the trade week/valuation that Starwood assigns but that doesn't mean that there aren't consequences in late deposits.

 

[Troopers]

FWIW,

Old rules (deposited week )

WKORV 1 bdrm (week 41, Oct 11-18, '09)

4 resorts, 5 weeks
2 wks @ Maui Schooner Resort
1 wk @ Cliffs Club
1 wk @ Sands of Kahana Vacation Club
1 wk @ Kona Coast Resort Phase II

New rules (undeposited week)

WKORV 1 bdrm (2009 float)

3 Resorts, 4 Weeks
2 wks @ Maui Schooner Resort
1 wk @ Cliffs Club
1 wk @ Sands of Kahana Vacation Club

Oh, I only searched within Hawaii.

 

[DeniseM]

Are you sure about this? Are you saying if one deposites a week (under the new rules) say 30 days before check-in it's the same as the week was deposited a year before check-in? I thought trading power declines with time with a minimum of 60 days out.

What do you mean by 30 days before check-in? When you deposit now, there is no underlying reservation - so there is no check-in date. All they do is assign your deposit a trade valuation. We've been discussing this here for weeks - go back and read the threads on the new process for all the details.

 

[Troopers]

What do you mean by 30 days before check-in? When you deposit now, there is no underlying reservation - so there is no check-in date. All they do is assign your deposit a trade valuation. We've been discussing this here for weeks - go back and read the threads on the new process for all the details.

Sigh...

Let's say one has a current home reservation at SDO for 2010 with a check-in date in the first week of March. When would the owner receive the most trading power if deposited?

A. Today
B. Feb 1, 2010
C. Nov 1, 2009
D. Jan 1, 2010
E. All of the above because it doesn't matter since it would be under the new rules.

And yes, I do know that the actual reservation in March 2010 is not deposited.

 

[DeniseM]

Troopers - You cannot deposit a week when you are holding a current reservation for that week. You have to call and cancel your reservation before you can make a deposit. So the correct answer is:

f. none of the above

But to answer your underlying question, there is no reservation, there is no check-in date, so it doesn't matter when you deposit, under the new rules. Still

We've been discussing this here for weeks - go back and read the threads on the new process for all the details.

 

[mkfisher]

Old rules
WKORV
Studio oceanview
deposited as week 1
resorts 8
units 19

 

[thinze3]

.... Under the old rules, I can see twice as many resorts and units as he can - that's significant.

However, if Pacman were to put in a specific request for one of those lower quality weeks that he can not see (but you can), his trade would come through immediately.

It only makes sense that an averaged week deposited by Starwood will have less trading power than your personally chosen week 10. I think that's a given.

Having said that, there is virtually no way to truly compare the two without requesting very high demand units/weeks that do not show up as being available on II's daily inventory. These units on II's website are units that no one else has requested in ongoing searches - essentially lower demanded or last minute weeks.

 

[Troopers]

Troopers - You cannot deposit a week when you are holding a current reservation for that week. You have to call and cancel your reservation before you can make a deposit. So the correct answer is:

f. none of the above

But to answer your underlying question, there is no reservation, there is no check-in date, so it doesn't matter when you deposit, under the new rules. Still

We've been discussing this here for weeks - go back and read the threads on the new process for all the details.

We can agree to disagree.

Doesn't one cancel the reservation while concurrently depositing the week? The conversation might go like this..."Hi, I like to cancel my reservation and deposit my week".

I do not believe a person can cancel his home resort reservation the day before his scheduled check-in date and deposit the week without trading power penalties.

 

[DeniseM]

Troopers - I feel like I'm dueling with an unarmed man, because you want to debate this issue without having all the facts, and apparently without reading all the info. about it that's already been posted.

You can "believe" anything you want, but that doesn't change the facts.

I feel like I am repeating old info. over and over in this thread, and it's getting a little tedious. Read the threads on this topic - the info. is all there.

Peace out!

 

[Captron]

Troopers,

I think the key is that what ends up as a deposit from Starwood is NOT the week you just had on hold. Kind of like under the old bulk deposit model, the week that is actually deposited could be a week from the past that was deposited many months ago and who's date is already past.

My understanding of it is that the agreement between Starwood and II is that ALL weeks within a season will be assigned the same trading value regardless of what exact week it is, and when or how far ahead it is deposited. That part is between them and I have no idea how they will work it out, but from our perspective weeks we use to exchange in the system all have the same trading "value" for us to make an exchange.

I believe the week you cancel in your example is absorbed back into the "system" and is used in other ways, rented, or maybe internally assigned to a unit that was due for a maintenance week anyway, etc. The actual week has no relevance to you at that point and thus you are not penalized at all. You end up like a new depositor and are given a trade value like the previous transaction and cancellation never even occurred.

It seems odd to me too and I think it is one of the things that will nip Starwood in the butt about this new system. I think if enough people do this and they (Starwood or even II depending upon what their agreement is) have to "eat" enough weeks that it will cause another change. It seems to be one way for us who are "in the know" to work this new system in the mean time.

Does that make sense?