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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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rsackett

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And those in the Bronze season will have to wait 3 years to have enough points to get the week they want and pay 3 years of maintenance fees, even if they are less.
Ex. Old way; one years fees say $850 = one week (where you want to stay)
New way; 3 years fees say $600 x 3 = $1800 = one week(where you want to stay)

Even though the fees may be less each year, it may take longer to get the points you need for the week you want. So the week you get will cost more in the long run.:eek:

Marriott is the clear winner here.

But that Bronze owner COULD save money if they use the week the originaly bought, but the Platinum Pluss owner WILL pay more to use the week they originaly bought!

Ray
 

Asia2000

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Any prospectus of an IPO or a 10K filing is littered with risk factors describing why you might lose money. These are all CYA clauses... That doesn't mean one buys to lose money. One also shouldn't buy a timeshare if they don't think it saves money versus renting.

Developer timeshares are pitched as saving money versus rentals (the Worldmark pitch is "pay for it once and vacation forever"), but I've been to 6-8 presentations, and have yet to meet the salesperson who tells me that my "investment" is worth much less 7 days later. The reality is that if people factored in all the costs, it is impossible to justify a retail purchase financially. Any new points system will not be much different in that regard.

Let me give you an example (and you can substitute the numbers at your respective resort). I believe the retail cost of a Platinum NCV is currently around $26K (maybe slightly higher - I lost track with the 15%-20% discounts running these days).

Cost #1: MFs + taxes is around $1000/year

Cost #2: Opportunity cost of initial investment - I use 4% because in most economic times you can get this rate almost risk free in a 5 year CD or treasuries. In the case of NCV it is also about $1000

Cost #3: Immediate depreciation of investment - The Platinum NCV resells for 11K these days. So you lose $15K of your investment the moment you buy. Amortize that if you will over 15 years and that another $1000/year (this is conservative because you incur that cost upfront and I ignored time value of money).

So assuming no MF increases over the next 15 years (also very conservative... and wishful thinking), the cost of owning a retail Platinum NCV is around $3000 a year. I doubt many owners would buy retail if they realized this was the true cost of ownership.

With a resale purchase Cost #3 doesn't exist, and Cost #2 is lower (less money upfront) so the overall cost is lower. A resale purchase is just easier to justify financially. Notice that is resale prices were higher, retail prices are easier to justify because there would be much less disparity between retail and resale cost. It is in Marriott's interest to keep resale prices high...

So why do people buy retail? (i) Because Marriott has great salespeople who have a great sales pitch and also convince them that $1250 worth of Marriott points (the cost for a couple to buy 100K points from Marriott) are worth 5-10 times more than $1250, and (ii) because the wording in the purchase documents is vague enough that when they say for example "you cannot sell the same product you buy because hotel points won't transfer," many people don't realize this actually means "your investment is worth much less the moment you walk out the door"...

I'm not sure about others here, but I bought my timeshares to save money versus the alternative of renting comparable accommodations. To me, that is a financial investment decision - just like any other "lease versus buy" decision. If others buy for other reasons that's great too - but I am not sure how many would buy retail if they realized the financial implications of that decision... We may all get a second chance soon enough.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Marriott owners have been upgrading their weeks (ie. gold to platinum) or (ie. 1 bedroom to 2 bedroom) for years. A new point system would allow Marriott to take away or minimize those available upgrades, and sell those upgrades/available inventory to new owners (points) and current timeshare owners via switching to a point system (for a fee). In a sense, they are taking what they already have or provide, and making new sales opportunities out of the existing inventory. More money, with no new buildings or massive upfront costs. Only a little marketing money and a fired up sales force loaded with smoke and mirrors. It sounds good for Marriott.

I think Perry and others have been saying this all along. Is this the way you see it?
 

indyhorizons

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I chose to think most people are better than that, that they can at least see both sides of the issue even if they disagree with the decision. To be honest, I see ONLY being able to look at at issue of HOW it affects you as a problem because it means those decisions are emotional decisions, I believe it essentially represents the entitlement mentality.

Isn't it all entitlement? My entitlement vs. Marriott's entitelment. Why should I care what Marriott's concerns/needs are if they don't reciprocate? We're talking about a business/entity not people/person. You Dean, (or any other individual), I respect your right to live your life and make decisions as you see fit, as long as said decisions don't impact me negatively. Chances are, since I'm sure the chances of our lives intersecting are fairly slim, I'm sure that is not bound to happen, then we're good, and I have no beef with you.

On the other hand, Marriott may be making a decision that may impact me negatively (operative word 'may' at this point), and you're darn tootin I disagree with it. I don't have to like it, and there's nothing you can do or say to convince me that I must or even should. Nor do I have to understand. Again, I am not personally a Marriott associate or shareholder, so what Marriott does to stay profitable doesn't concern me nearly as much. In fact, I don't care what Marriott does to stay profitable, as I don't have to stay at Marriott hotels, there are many others to choose from. On the other hand, I am owner of a product (timeshare) that when the rules change may impact me, and now I am concerned. Plain and simple.
If you feel that's an entitlement mentality, so be it, I'm not offended. We don't even know each other.
 

indyhorizons

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Yes, which is exactly what I said. What is best for the shareholders is to take care of the profitable customers, not the "deadbeat" customers. Clearly its most profitable customers are the ones who use the system and will buy another retail week, not people who buy or want to resell. Resale is irrelevant to Marriott and its customers as every timeshare presentation is required to state by law :rolleyes:

They are not infallible, but they clearly have built the most successful timeshare organization in the world. They have access to significantly more marketing data and other examples of systems that work and don't work. My guess is that the system they roll out will be very successful. If I were a betting man my money would be on them vs. anyone on this thread :D , and it is ;)
Pooh, I guess we are all deadbeats then, as someone as already gracefully pointed out, there is no such thing as a new timeshare, in the general sense of the word...:rolleyes:
 

DanCali

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I think Perry and others have been saying this all along. Is this the way you see it?

Absolutely... If this new program is launched it is with the intention to benefit Marritt, not owners.

In fact, most points systems are designed so that the developer can skim off the top. For example, in Starwood's program owners have priority from 8-12 months out and exchangers can make internal exchanges at 8 months out. But guess what - Starwood can come in at 11 or 10 months out and make their own reservations based on anticipated hotel point conversions (whatever "anticipated" means...). That many times leaves exchangers out of luck when it comes to the most desirable weeks, even if actual owners didn't reserve them, because which weeks do you think Starwood will reserve to rent out for profit? They also have their own special II depsoit rules (they control the deposited week, not the owner) for exactly the same reasons. This is about a lot more than exchange fees... I'm not sure how Marriott handles reservations due to hotel point conversions now, but look for them to use this opportunity to tilt the rules in their favor.

It has been said by Fletch (probably over a thousand posts ago) that the #1 complaint Marriott gets is II. That may be the case, but despite that Marriott owners are overall quite happy with their ownership. II is as close to a true supply and demand market as you can get, so any dissatisfaction with II is likely due to Marriott salespeople promising things II simply cannot deliver. For Marriott to come after 20 years, change the rules of 400,000+ owners, and pretend they can do a better job than II and that everyone will be better off with a points system is a joke IMO.
 
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m61376

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I can't see street prices being representative because there is no real standard (see ebay) and because the prices right now are so low that they would not do anything rather than use these prices as a gauge. They have ALREADY valued each resort and week currently in sales. It is not a difficult conversion to take that info and mesh it into some type of price per point. If you has no home resort priority and points are points, you just take them all and average them then add 10-20% or more. That's one area I do agree with Perry, that each point sold is either a high demand point in the eyes of the buyer OR a point slated for when/where that buyer wants to use it. It's even easier if you keep the underlying view/unit season/etc in place. As much as anything else, I'm interested in how the dues will be calculated.

And even more to me, how will they determine the differences between the resorts. My guess is the main way they'll get you interested is by taking away options you have now including internal exchange priority and a significant reduction in inventory. As for say a GV 3 BR compared to a HI 2 BR, I'd expect GV 3 BR to be worth somewhat less points as a reflection of the prices charged and the relative demand. How much less is really the question in my mind but I'd guess a 2 BR GV about half a 2 BR HI and a 3 BR GV somewhere about half way in between.
I think you misunderstood me when I suggested that market prices reflect demand- I was referring to market rental rates- the average rental rates that Marriott charges for a given unit during a given time period (season). They've already quantified the market demand in rental rates, and the comparative demand between different properties is likewise already calculated. That's why I suggested the rental rates would make a fair evaluative tool.

Of course, as DanCali suggested, GV owners might not think that was fair because they might come up on the short end of the stick. Regardless of what system they use, there are bound to be winners and losers, and I can understand the concern about that. I am just suggesting that using an objective quantification of value rather than some sales driven and variably formulation would be a more accurate reflection of what true value was. What better reflection of value than what others are willing to pay Marriott to rent the same week?
 

grgs

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A well designed points system by Marriott should be a great option as it is with so many other big names. The only surprise is that it has taken SO long for Marriott to offer it (if they do as we assume).

If Marriott had had a points system similar to Starwood or Hilton back when we bought our first timeshare, we'd probably be Marriott owners now instead of Starwood owners. When we compared the three (back in 2004), Marriott won hands down with the variety of locations. We liked the way Hilton's point system worked, but didn't like the concentration of resorts in only 3 main areas. Starwood didn't have as many locations as Marriott, but more diversity than Hilton.

While there are some legitimate concerns about Starwood (you can read all about them at the Starwood board :rolleyes:), we have been quite pleased with the internal exchange system. It's not perfect, but overall has worked well for us. We've also made good use of II exchanges with our Starwood units.

Of course, I have sympathy for Marriott owners who are concerned that a change may screw up something that is currently working well. I hope that doesn't happen, and I hope there are still plenty of Marriott units for me to trade into via II. :D

Glorian
 

m61376

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Marriott has resorts in many countries so how can they tag the points to rack rates? Rates are very different from one country to another. Points should be allocated by the quality, size, amenities, season and views of one resort against each other and should be adjusted by the demand for that resort worldwide at the moment when you make the reservation. That is a true floating system, IMHO.


Very simply- at a given point in time (let's say June 15th, if the program rolls out then) every resort has a rack rate, whether they are in the US, the Caribbean, France, Spain or Thailand; currencies may be different, but if I want to pay with a dollar there will be a rack rate for each property, based on quality, size, amenities, seasons and view- these are all parameters which affect demand, and the rack rate reflects the effect of demand. So, every resort in existence can be evaluated objectively on day one.

At any point in the future, if/when an additional property is added, the new property can also easily be fairly evaluated, just simply by comparing the rental rates at the time to the rental rates of a property which was evaluated at the program onset. Thus, all valuations are made using the same frame of reference, and you don't run into the situation where future resorts are over-valued relative to current resorts, whose point valuations will likely remain stagnant over time, fixed at the inception of the program.
 
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grgs

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In fact, most points systems are designed so that the developer can skim off the top. For example, in Starwood's program owners have priority from 8-12 months out and exchangers can make internal exchanges at 8 months out. But guess what - Starwood can come in at 11 or 10 months out and make their own reservations based on anticipated hotel point conversions (whatever "anticipated" means...). That many times leaves exchangers out of luck when it comes to the most desirable weeks, even if actual owners didn't reserve them, because which weeks do you think Starwood will reserve to rent out for profit? They also have their own special II depsoit rules (they control the deposited week, not the owner) for exactly the same reasons. This is about a lot more than exchange fees... I'm not sure how Marriott handles reservations due to hotel point conversions now, but look for them to use this opportunity to tilt the rules in their favor.

I think Dan does raise some interesting points here. In terms of hotel point conversions, there is no way that I'm aware of to know what Starwood is taking out of the inventory, and yes, one would guess they would rather take prime weeks instead of dog weeks to rent. I wish we could know better how what weeks they're taking.

In terms of the II deposit rules, I actually have less of an issue here. The one consistent complaint I have read about from Marriott owners is not being able to reserve their home resort at 12 mos. out when trying for a peak week. I have never heard of a Starwood owner getting locked out of their home resort at 12 mos. out. It's one thing to not be able to get an internal exchange, but to not be able to book your home resort is awful! I assume it's because so many Marriott owners try to get the highest demand week possible to trade in II (or a good chunk of weeks has already been booked by owners with the 13 mo. advantage). With Starwood, this incentive doesn't exist, and so I think we have much less trouble getting weeks booked at our home resort during peak season. Specifically, I have never had an issue booking March weeks at Westin Kierland or Sheraton Desert Oasis; however, I have read about Marriott Canyon Villa owners getting locked out.

Glorian
 
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timeos2

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Points self levels usage - weeks cause runs on prime times

It's one thing to not be able to get an internal exchange, but to not be able to book your home resort is awful! I assume it's because so many Marriott owners try to get the highest demand week possible to trade in II (or a good chunk of weeks have already been booked by owners with the 13 mo. advantage). With Starwood, this incentive doesn't exist, and so I think we have much less trouble getting weeks booked at our home resort during peak season. Specifically, I have never had an issue booking March weeks at Westin Kierland or Sheraton Desert Oasis; however, I have read about Marriott Canyon Villa owners getting locked out.

Glorian

That's one reason a points system should work much better. It naturally spreads out use and doesn't penalize those who can't/won't play games to get the few, very limited prime weeks at the expense of all other owners losing out. Grabbing the best & biggest just to get it, not to use. With points it pays to be frugal and take only what you need.

Hey the crazy system of forcing Marriott owners to use II has saved me buying a Marriott, which we had seriously once considered. It turned out to be much cheaper (and easier) to use a points based system (DRI Club) to get every Marriott we ever wanted, when we wanted it, for deeply discounted point values using the infamous II developer priority. Seems we as outsiders had easier access than those that pay the big ownership costs. I should be complaining that Marriott may be closing the door on that goldmine of easy and inexpensive access to great resorts. But I won't. Owners that pay the fees will be far better served with an internal points system rather than the highly manipulated II system. Again the real question is why did Marriott wait so long to do the obvious?
 
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indyhorizons

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It's one thing to not be able to get an internal exchange, but to not be able to book your home resort is awful! I assume it's because so many Marriott owners try to get the highest demand week possible to trade in II (or a good chunk of weeks has already been booked by owners with the 13 mo. advantage). With Starwood, this incentive doesn't exist, and so I think we have much less trouble getting weeks booked at our home resort during peak season. Specifically, I have never had an issue booking March weeks at Westin Kierland or Sheraton Desert Oasis; however, I have read about Marriott Canyon Villa owners getting locked out.

Glorian

A couple things to note, I have never had a problem booking my home resort when I wanted it. Never. Yes, you have to play the game of calling at the right time at or around 9am, and all that is inherent in that.
Additionally, what you have stated here is only partially accurate. The 13-month rule is such that only 50% of a resorts inventory is held out for the multi-week owners. The remaining 50% is left for the 12-month for same week. Thus what actually occurs is the multi-week owners get a crack at the prime week in question, 2ce (13 & 12 month interval), the single week owner only gets the one oppty. Just to further note, I only just this past year became a multi-week owner, and repeat, I have never had a problem getting my home resort for the reservation I wanted. Now, of course, I do not own at say HH, or NCV, however, your broad-brushed statement implies that all MVCI owners have a degree of difficulty reserving their desired home resort, and I just don't believe that to be the truth...
 

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Is 13 a lucky number or not?

A couple things to note, I have never had a problem booking my home resort when I wanted it. Never. Yes, you have to play the game of calling at the right time at or around 9am, and all that is inherent in that.
Additionally, what you have stated here is only partially accurate. The 13-month rule is such that only 50% of a resorts inventory is held out for the multi-week owners. The remaining 50% is left for the 12-month for same week. Thus what actually occurs is the multi-week owners get a crack at the prime week in question, 2ce (13 & 12 month interval), the single week owner only gets the one oppty. Just to further note, I only just this past year became a multi-week owner, and repeat, I have never had a problem getting my home resort for the reservation I wanted. Now, of course, I do not own at say HH, or NCV, however, your broad-brushed statement implies that all MVCI owners have a degree of difficulty reserving their desired home resort, and I just don't believe that to be the truth...

A reasonable question to ask is "Will Marriott dump the 13 month rule?"

Marriott doesn't need it anymore - why should they let the folks who don't play their game have it?

I guess the sales documents might mention it - but if I remember correctly that required 2 weeks consecutive or concurrent at the SAME resort. Marriott let it spill over to mean ANY resort.

Marriott can simply enforce the documents and the whole flavor of 13 month reservations change.

My guess is that if Marriott has to keep the 13 month rule they will enforce the original definition and cut down competition.

If they can dump it they will do so faster than a salesrep who realizes that Ma and Pa bought a resale Marriott and can quote the eBay price that day.

P.S.
If Marriott does tinker with the 13 month rule they will mention the term "Fairness".

Count how many times "Fairness" is used and that's how many times owners are getting screwed.
 
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dougp26364

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Correct me if I'm wrong. Marriott owners have been upgrading their weeks (ie. gold to platinum) or (ie. 1 bedroom to 2 bedroom) for years. A new point system would allow Marriott to take away or minimize those available upgrades, and sell those upgrades/available inventory to new owners (points) and current timeshare owners via switching to a point system (for a fee). In a sense, they are taking what they already have or provide, and making new sales opportunities out of the existing inventory. More money, with no new buildings or massive upfront costs. Only a little marketing money and a fired up sales force loaded with smoke and mirrors. It sounds good for Marriott.

I think Perry and others have been saying this all along. Is this the way you see it?

It depends. If you own one of the older resorts or a week with less value in the points based system, then yep, you most likely will find upgrading more difficult. On the other hand, if you own a more valuable week that has higher point values and you want to "trade down" to an older resort but, perhaps a higher season, then you might find your the one on the best position to upgrade.

The problem with buying to exchange is that exchange rules are subject to change. When they do change, it can have an adverse affect on how you set yourself up. Perry has had great luck with his Gold Summit watch week. I've had very good luck with my Silver Ocean Pointe studio week. In the new points system, both Perry and I may find those weeks aren't as attractive in the new exhcange system.

However, I also have a 1 bedroom Grand Chateau week that does a reasonably good job for exchange but, doesn't have the power I'd like it to have to get into the newer resorts that only have two bedroom units. My studio Ocean Pointe week is basically an extra exchange week for us. I don't have to have it. So, in a new points based system, this could work for me as I can now combine the studio points with the one bedroom points so that I might have an easier time getting the one two bedroom unit I really would like to have rather than two exchanges that are luke warm at best.

It's really going to be a glass half full or half empty depending upon how you look at things. The ones that will have the most difficulty are those who bought strictly to exchange in a system that may become obsolete in a few short years.

Boccabum's advice is to look at timeshare ownership short term. If you're buying to exchange, this is good advice as the rules can/do change. What's a great deal today might not be so great tomorrow.
 

dougp26364

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Isn't it all entitlement? My entitlement vs. Marriott's entitelment. Why should I care what Marriott's concerns/needs are if they don't reciprocate? We're talking about a business/entity not people/person. You Dean, (or any other individual), I respect your right to live your life and make decisions as you see fit, as long as said decisions don't impact me negatively. Chances are, since I'm sure the chances of our lives intersecting are fairly slim, I'm sure that is not bound to happen, then we're good, and I have no beef with you.

On the other hand, Marriott may be making a decision that may impact me negatively (operative word 'may' at this point), and you're darn tootin I disagree with it. I don't have to like it, and there's nothing you can do or say to convince me that I must or even should. Nor do I have to understand. Again, I am not personally a Marriott associate or shareholder, so what Marriott does to stay profitable doesn't concern me nearly as much. In fact, I don't care what Marriott does to stay profitable, as I don't have to stay at Marriott hotels, there are many others to choose from. On the other hand, I am owner of a product (timeshare) that when the rules change may impact me, and now I am concerned. Plain and simple.
If you feel that's an entitlement mentality, so be it, I'm not offended. We don't even know each other.

You have to keep in mind that the only thing you buy when you purchase a timeshare is the right to use that week. Exchange privledges, hotel rewards points, exchanging for cruises or other services are all subject to change. The timeshare buyer that purchases for the extra's will meet dissapointment some time in the future as all these thing will eventually change. Ask anyone who bought a Marriot timeshare with the intent on using that timeshare for the Marriott Rewards points they could get.
 

dougp26364

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A reasonable question to ask is "Will Marriott dump the 13 month rule?"

Marriott doesn't need it anymore - why should they let the folks who don't play their game have it?

I guess the sales documents might mention it - but if I remember correctly that required 2 weeks consecutive or concurrent at the SAME resort. Marriott let it spill over to mean ANY resort.

Marriott can simply enforce the documents and the whole flavor of 13 month reservations change.

My guess is that if Marriott has to keep the 13 month rule they will enforce the original definition and cut down competition.

If they can dump it they will do so faster than a salesrep who realizes that Ma and Pa bought a resale Marriott and can quote the eBay price that day.

P.S.
If Marriott does tinker with the 13 month rule they will mention the term "Fairness".

Count how many times "Fairness" is used and that's how many times owners are getting screwed.


While it wouldn't surprise me to not see the 13 month rule in any new points based system, I would imagine that the 13 month rule for mult. week owners will remain in place for those that stay in the weeks based exchange system.
 

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David and Goliath - the real story....

While it wouldn't surprise me to not see the 13 month rule in any new points based system, I would imagine that the 13 month rule for mult. week owners will remain in place for those that stay in the weeks based exchange system.

It really won't matter since Marriott can string together 4 or 8 or 12 or 16 or more reservations together to snap up ALL 13 month and then concurrently place hundreds of orders for 12 month inventory within a second.

Folks; its you against a Fortune 500 company trying to snag New Year's Week - who do you think will win?

Oh, and if you own a fixed week 52 forget Saturday and Friday check-ins - you'll get Sunday night.

Oh, if you own a Gold and Platinum, at the same resort, and you've always reserved them consecutively (one following the other) - good luck with that.

A combo sales and reservation Point system has the developer taking an aggressive interest in snagging the primo reservations for the folks who play their game; those that don't are their enemy and are to be defeated.

There is no "Can we all just get along" in business....
 
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Trust buster?

It occurred to me that if Marriott goes down the trust based Point system they might be able to take 50 deposited weeks along with the 2 they own and just become condo oriented - the trust controls all the units to make a whole condo and thus start locking out complete condos from folks who don't join their club.

Like controlling the condos with the best views, the top floors, the ones around the pool, and of course ignore the ones with the worst reputation.

Once complete condos are dedicated to the new system who get's the newest furniture, rugs, appliances, carpet shampoos, and the best maids - take a guess.

I doubt that folks who belong to the new system will ever get to hear the beeping Dumpster hauling truck at 5 AM.

Something to think about...
 
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taffy19

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Very simply- at a given point in time (let's say June 15th, if the program rolls out then) every resort has a rack rate, whether they are in the US, the Caribbean, France, Spain or Thailand; currencies may be different, but if I want to pay with a dollar there will be a rack rate for each property, based on quality, size, amenities, seasons and view- these are all parameters which affect demand, and the rack rate reflects the effect of demand. So, every resort in existence can be evaluated objectively on day one.

At any point in the future, if/when an additional property is added, the new property can also easily be fairly evaluated, just simply by comparing the rental rates at the time to the rental rates of a property which was evaluated at the program onset. Thus, all valuations are made using the same frame of reference, and you don't run into the situation where future resorts are over-valued relative to current resorts, whose point valuations will likely remain stagnant over time, fixed at the inception of the program.
Rack rates are a farce! We just spent nine days back East and one Marriott had a rack rate of $1,500 per night. Who would pay that? We used MRPs instead :cool: because we would never pay that rate.

We then went to the Marriott New York Marquis and used a few nights on MRPs too but still had to pay for one night ourselves because there were no MRPs available. We paid just over $400 for the night with the tax included. We couldn't afford many nights like that and I forgot to look what the rack rate was at this hotel but probably even more yet than $1,500 per night as in Washington, DC. :eek: I may be wrong but I believe that hotel rates change often too because of supply and demand at that particular moment.

We also noticed in the elevators that most people were foreigners and not English speaking when we were there. Their standard of living may be higher than ours so their hotel rates are higher too and this hotel wasn't expensive for them.

Only real rates count if you want to have that type of system but it still has something to do with the standard of living in other countries because it may become a global point system. I am only speculating again and we will know soon enough. ;)
 

taffy19

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It occurred to me that if Marriott goes down the trust based Point system they might be able to take 50 deposited weeks along with the 2 they own and just become condo oriented - the trust controls all the units to make a whole condo and thus start locking out complete condos from folks who don't join their club.

Like controlling the condos with the best views, the top floors, the ones around the pool, and of course ignore the ones with the worst reputation.

Once complete condos are dedicated to the new system who get's the newest furniture, rugs, appliances, carpet shampoos, and the best maids - take a guess.

I doubt that folks who belong to the new system will ever get to hear the beeping Dumpster hauling truck at 5 AM.

Something to think about...
You really like to stir the pot, Perry. I can see them doing that and sell it as a fixed week/unit year-round to a wealthy timeshare owner but not as a regular condo owner. There is a timeshare HOA involved. ;) We may not even be part of the new floating point system unless we convert first to a floating week. We can do it according to the contract.
 
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taffy19

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Any prospectus of an IPO or a 10K filing is littered with risk factors describing why you might lose money. These are all CYA clauses... That doesn't mean one buys to lose money. One also shouldn't buy a timeshare if they don't think it saves money versus renting.

Developer timeshares are pitched as saving money versus rentals (the Worldmark pitch is "pay for it once and vacation forever"), but I've been to 6-8 presentations, and have yet to meet the salesperson who tells me that my "investment" is worth much less 7 days later. The reality is that if people factored in all the costs, it is impossible to justify a retail purchase financially. Any new points system will not be much different in that regard.

Let me give you an example (and you can substitute the numbers at your respective resort). I believe the retail cost of a Platinum NCV is currently around $26K (maybe slightly higher - I lost track with the 15%-20% discounts running these days).

Cost #1: MFs + taxes is around $1000/year

Cost #2: Opportunity cost of initial investment - I use 4% because in most economic times you can get this rate almost risk free in a 5 year CD or treasuries. In the case of NCV it is also about $1000

Cost #3: Immediate depreciation of investment - The Platinum NCV resells for 11K these days. So you lose $15K of your investment the moment you buy. Amortize that if you will over 15 years and that another $1000/year (this is conservative because you incur that cost upfront and I ignored time value of money).

So assuming no MF increases over the next 15 years (also very conservative... and wishful thinking), the cost of owning a retail Platinum NCV is around $3000 a year. I doubt many owners would buy retail if they realized this was the true cost of ownership.

With a resale purchase Cost #3 doesn't exist, and Cost #2 is lower (less money upfront) so the overall cost is lower. A resale purchase is just easier to justify financially. Notice that is resale prices were higher, retail prices are easier to justify because there would be much less disparity between retail and resale cost. It is in Marriott's interest to keep resale prices high...

So why do people buy retail? (i) Because Marriott has great salespeople who have a great sales pitch and also convince them that $1250 worth of Marriott points (the cost for a couple to buy 100K points from Marriott) are worth 5-10 times more than $1250, and (ii) because the wording in the purchase documents is vague enough that when they say for example "you cannot sell the same product you buy because hotel points won't transfer," many people don't realize this actually means "your investment is worth much less the moment you walk out the door"...

I'm not sure about others here, but I bought my timeshares to save money versus the alternative of renting comparable accommodations. To me, that is a financial investment decision - just like any other "lease versus buy" decision. If others buy for other reasons that's great too - but I am not sure how many would buy retail if they realized the financial implications of that decision... We may all get a second chance soon enough.
I didn't mean a prospectus of an IPO or a 10K filing that is littered with risk factors describing why you might lose money.

I meant a purchase contract that people sign when they buy a timeshare from the developer. As a re-sale buyer, you probably never saw all the documents that a direct buyer has to sign even without getting a loan. It is supposedly for our protection but leave it up to the Government to do a "great job" as usual by leaving out the most important warning to a new buyer that a timeshare is almost worthless the moment you have signed the contract. That's what I meant.

People expect that timeshares hold their value because they are real estate supposedly while people do not expect this when they buy a pre-owned or second hand car.

I wished the Government would keep their nose out of private business so that competition is working properly and the company with the best product and price and that treats their customers well will be the winner as their customers will keep buying when a better product comes around. This is a win win situation for everyone involved.

The way it is now is that the Corporations with the smartest attorneys will win because they can outsmart the Government with their legalese. Read the fine print when you sign a contract!!!
 

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I didn't mean a prospectus of an IPO or a 10K filing that is littered with risk factors describing why you might lose money.

I meant a purchase contract that people sign when they buy a timeshare from the developer. As a re-sale buyer, you probably never saw all the documents that a direct buyer has to sign even without getting a loan.

I saw those documents when I bought from Starwood. Fortunately I discovered TUG in time.

And I meant what I said about similarities to an IPO prospectus. All that legalese is CYA language yet timeshares are not sold as losing propositions to buyers... They are sold as a tool to save money in the long run.

Here are three key Statements from the Starwood documents:

- Your membership in the Starwood Vacation network cannot be transferred to a resale buyer. Membership in SVN may not be available to your resale buyer or may be available for a fee as determined from time to time.

This is a very roundabout way to say "the $55K product you bought is worth much less of the resale market"

- It is the policy of the Seller and its broker not to enter into oral agreements or make policy or representations that are not stated in the Contract Documents. You should not rely on any oral agreements or promises in making your decision to buy your VOI.

This is a polite way to say that "much of what the salesperson told you is bs and you cannot sue us if MFs rise by more than the CPI rate, like 30% a year..."


And here is the one Dean alluded to:

- Your VOI is for your use and enjoyment. The Seller makes no representations about your VOI's potential for future profit, rental income, tax benefits, investment potential or other financial advantages.

"No representations" doesn't mean one should assume it's worthless... It just means "don't sue us when you discover it's worthelss..."

Since it seems some people actually take this clause as a carte blanche for Marriott to decimate resale prices at will, or justification why Marriott shouldn't care about resale prices, let's see what Google said...

Google also never made any representations about future profit. They actually sounded a lot more negative than timeshare developers about their future. These are some selected quotes from Google's IPO prospectus: (for a full reading, and many more risk factors,click here)

Risks related to IPO

(do any of these sound familiar - yet do people invest thinking they lose 100%?):


  • Our stock price could decline rapidly and significantly.

  • The auction process for our public offering may result in a phenomenon known as the “winner’s curse,” and, as a result, investors may experience significant losses.

  • The auction process for our initial public offering may result in a situation in which less price sensitive investors play a larger role in the determination of our offering price and constitute a larger portion of the investors in our offering, and, therefore, the offering price may not be sustainable once trading of our Class A common stock begins.

  • Successful bidders should not expect to sell our shares for a profit shortly after our Class A common stock begins trading.

  • Our initial public offering price may have little or no relationship to the price that would be established using traditional valuation methods, and therefore, the initial public offering price may not be sustainable once trading begins.

  • If research analysts publish or establish target prices for our Class A common stock that are below the initial public offering price or then current trading market price of our shares, the price of our shares of Class A common stock may fall.

  • Our stock price may be volatile, and you may not be able to resell shares of our Class A common stock at or above the price you paid.

  • Future sales of shares by our stockholders could cause our stock price to decline.

And then you have lots more Risks related to Business and Industry:


[*]If Microsoft or Yahoo are successful in providing similar or better web search results compared to ours or leverage their platforms to make their web search services easier to access than ours, we could experience a significant decline in user traffic. Any such decline in traffic could negatively affect our revenues.
[/LIST]

  • There has been a trend toward industry consolidation among our competitors, and so smaller competitors today may become larger competitors in the future. If our competitors are more successful than we are at generating traffic, our revenues may decline.

  • We expect that large advertisers will continue to focus most of their advertising efforts on traditional media. If we fail to convince these companies to spend a portion of their advertising budgets with us, or if our existing advertisers reduce the amount they spend on our programs, our operating results would be harmed.

  • We expect that in the future our revenue growth rate will decline and anticipate that there will be downward pressure on our operating margin.

  • As our organization grows, and we are required to implement more complex organizational management structures, we may find it increasingly difficult to maintain the beneficial aspects of our corporate culture. This could negatively impact our future success. In addition, this offering may create disparities in wealth among Google employees, which may adversely impact relations among employees and our corporate culture in general.

  • We have also been notified by third parties that they believe features of certain of our products, including Google WebSearch, Google News and Google Image Search, violate their copyrights. Generally speaking, any time that we have a product or service that links to or hosts material in which others allege to own copyrights, we face the risk of being sued for copyright infringement or related claims. Because these products and services comprise the majority of our products and services, the risk of potential harm from such lawsuits is substantial.

  • We are exposed to the risk of fraudulent clicks on our ads by persons seeking to increase the advertising fees paid to our Google Network members...

  • All of our executive officers and key employees are at-will employees, and we do not maintain any key-person life insurance policies. The loss of any of our management or key personnel could seriously harm our business.

  • We have a short operating history and a relatively new business model in an emerging and rapidly evolving market. This makes it difficult to evaluate our future prospects, may increase the risk that we will not continue to be successful and increases the risk of your investment.

  • If we account for employee stock options using the fair value method, it could significantly reduce our net income.

If we always took all these types of clauses at face value we'd just keep our money under the mattress...

Long post, but I hope I made my point.
 
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Starbucks

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As we have only a few days left it might be an interesting idea to open up a small poll on TUG to see what the majority of informed MVCI owners is thinking what is going to hit us next week.

My personal guess is the new programm is based on the AP system. There might be a few minor adjustments but the main ideas will be used. Honestly when i first went to that AP presentation i was like "Jeez! What are those guys trying to sell me?". Nowadays i am still :hysterical: about 98% of that system. I don´t think that more than 5% of Tuggers will like what they see next week.

As for the loopholes/smart buyers. I am also with Boccabum that one should go where the current developer money and inventory is and say goodbye as soon as the party gets too crowded. So finding an opportunity to get those 10,000 or whatever amount of points is needed to get some of those 2BDR Flexchanges during the next few years might be a reasonable approach IF one is flexible.

Would i exchange my weeks into points under the current AP rules ? You bet not.

MVCI is likely trying to dry out the inventory in II and they might be successful doing that in a few years. Also MVCI is likely to tweak around with maintenance fee calculations hitting resistant week owners ("outlaws") with higher fees. However i am still optimistic that in the long run, after the new programm went through the first "enhancements", an old week is much more valuable than some points.
 

m61376

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Rack rates are a farce! We just spent nine days back East and one Marriott had a rack rate of $1,500 per night. Who would pay that? We used MRPs instead :cool: because we would never pay that rate.

We then went to the Marriott New York Marquis and used a few nights on MRPs too but still had to pay for one night ourselves because there were no MRPs available. We paid just over $400 for the night with the tax included. We couldn't afford many nights like that and I forgot to look what the rack rate was at this hotel but probably even more yet than $1,500 per night as in Washington, DC. :eek: I may be wrong but I believe that hotel rates change often too because of supply and demand at that particular moment.

We also noticed in the elevators that most people were foreigners and not English speaking when we were there. Their standard of living may be higher than ours so their hotel rates are higher too and this hotel wasn't expensive for them.

Only real rates count if you want to have that type of system but it still has something to do with the standard of living in other countries because it may become a global point system. I am only speculating again and we will know soon enough. ;)

Interesting...yet those that tout the advantage of the trading for points perk of direct purchasers use that very figure to value the benefit of the fabulous vacations they've taken.

Yes, hotel rates do fluctuate, but at any given moment comparing the rates between different properties at the same point in time is an objective relative evaluation of real time value. It doesn't matter if you (or I) would pay those rates- clearly, many people book directly through Marriott and do.

It doesn't matter if it is relatively cheaper for a visitor from Japan because of their relative standard of living; clearly the supply and demand around the world is reflected simply in the prices being charged. What Marriott currently charges to rent a room or a villa already reflects fees in a global system of worldwide properties. In reality, Marriott doesn't care what nationality their occupant is, as long as they pay the bill. That's why your issue of affordability based on the American standard of living versus a foreign one isn't applicable here. Value is determined by relative demand and supply, and the pricing already in place (Marriott rental rates) systematically wide reflects that.

Like Perry, I feel that this is the only truly accurate and, thus, fair reflection of value (unless they were to do property appraisals, but since they already have these figures easily accessible why reinvent the wheel?). However, whether they will take the high road and actually use them is another matter, because the very fact that it forces them to set point values objectively and impedes their manipulation of them for sales purposes may very well preclude them from using an objective basis for valuation. But, imho, If they did, it would go a long way towards convincing me that this truly was the best system and that Marriott developed something really beneficial for owners and not only their bottom line.
 

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I think you misunderstood me when I suggested that market prices reflect demand- I was referring to market rental rates- the average rental rates that Marriott charges for a given unit during a given time period (season). They've already quantified the market demand in rental rates, and the comparative demand between different properties is likewise already calculated. That's why I suggested the rental rates would make a fair evaluative tool.

Of course, as DanCali suggested, GV owners might not think that was fair because they might come up on the short end of the stick. Regardless of what system they use, there are bound to be winners and losers, and I can understand the concern about that. I am just suggesting that using an objective quantification of value rather than some sales driven and variably formulation would be a more accurate reflection of what true value was. What better reflection of value than what others are willing to pay Marriott to rent the same week?
Yes I did misunderstand, thanks. They have a fair amount of info for each area before they decide to build and they add to that info over time. This includes market studies, rental rates, etc. I'm sure they pull from the hotel arm which has a lot of data as well. I'm sure they'll look at the actual rates and % they rent in addition, I doubt actual rack rates would have much bearing.

A reasonable question to ask is "Will Marriott dump the 13 month rule?"

Marriott doesn't need it anymore - why should they let the folks who don't play their game have it?

I guess the sales documents might mention it - but if I remember correctly that required 2 weeks consecutive or concurrent at the SAME resort. Marriott let it spill over to mean ANY resort.

Marriott can simply enforce the documents and the whole flavor of 13 month reservations change.

My guess is that if Marriott has to keep the 13 month rule they will enforce the original definition and cut down competition.

If they can dump it they will do so faster than a salesrep who realizes that Ma and Pa bought a resale Marriott and can quote the eBay price that day.

P.S.
If Marriott does tinker with the 13 month rule they will mention the term "Fairness".

Count how many times "Fairness" is used and that's how many times owners are getting screwed.
It is not a requirement as they have total control over the reservation options without member input. I would expect it to go away at some point for weeks but likely not right away. I'd doubt it's be part of any points system.
 

m61376

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As we have only a few days left it might be an interesting idea to open up a small poll on TUG to see what the majority of informed MVCI owners is thinking what is going to hit us next week.

My personal guess is the new programm is based on the AP system. There might be a few minor adjustments but the main ideas will be used. Honestly when i first went to that AP presentation i was like "Jeez! What are those guys trying to sell me?". Nowadays i am still :hysterical: about 98% of that system. I don´t think that more than 5% of Tuggers will like what they see next week.

As for the loopholes/smart buyers. I am also with Boccabum that one should go where the current developer money and inventory is and say goodbye as soon as the party gets too crowded. So finding an opportunity to get those 10,000 or whatever amount of points is needed to get some of those 2BDR Flexchanges during the next few years might be a reasonable approach IF one is flexible.

Would i exchange my weeks into points under the current AP rules ? You bet not.

MVCI is likely trying to dry out the inventory in II and they might be successful doing that in a few years. Also MVCI is likely to tweak around with maintenance fee calculations hitting resistant week owners ("outlaws") with higher fees. However i am still optimistic that in the long run, after the new programm went through the first "enhancements", an old week is much more valuable than some points.

Largely, I think your analysis is right, and I respect that you've had more opportunity to examine the AP program. Rolling out something akin to the AP program makes sense from a business perspective, because it would allow them to have a similar offering system-wide and combine the reservation systems. As I stated above, money is money, whether it is paid in dollars, converted from Japanese Yen, British pounds, the Euro, etc., and Marriott really doesn't (nor should they from a business perspective) care about its source. I also feel that the AP program gave Marriott a chance to dip their toes in the water, so to speak, and time to test and tweak both the offering and the reservation system, and on a smaller scale rectify issues with a dual ownership type reservation system. When I first heard of the AP program a few years back I felt it was a trial run, so your premise is based on a good foundation.

The only part I disagree with is: "MVCI is likely to tweak around with maintenance fee calculations hitting resistant week owners ("outlaws") with higher fees." legally, whatever fees set by each HOA must be paid, either by the week owner or by an allocation from the Marriott point trust MF's. But, for argument's sake, if the HOA sets the MF at 1k, the weeks owner pays 1K and Marriott must reimburse the HOA 1k for each week in the points system. Now, how Marriott charges the points owner can be manipulated; under the weeks system, every owner pays the 1K per week, regardless of season owned. Under the points system, a Platinum week may be allotted 40,000 points, a Gold week 30,000, a Silver 20,000 and a Bronze 10,000, for argument's sake. If Marriott has those 4 weeks in their points system, they must turn over 4K to the HOA for those 4 weeks. However, they do not have to charge each of those owners $1000 as they do now. The Platinum week owner may be charged $1600, the Gold $1200, the Silver $800 and the Bronze $400, reflecting their relative point ownership. The HOA still gets their 4K from the 4 weeks, but now the season owned impacts the distribution of charges.

BUT- Marriott cannot arbitrarily charge resistant owners, who retain their weeks, a higher portion of the carrying charges, since MF's are divided evenly amongst ownership weeks. IF Marriott was to tweak the system, as you suggest, and increase the MF's for weeks owners, it would similarly have to assess point owners to cover those fees.

The bigger issue is how will Marriott determine MF's? In the AP program, MF's are uniform across the board, so that, in effect, everyone absorbs the cost of higher MF properties. In the old system, a lower season owner paid less to purchase, but still received one week of use and since the cost of running the resort is relatively the same (of course, there are some different variables depending on time of year) across the year, so the expenses are divided evenly. In the AP system, the purchase price is determined by the number of points purchased, the size of the unit they can get is determined by the number of points owned, the property location and value, the size of the unit and the time of the year. MF's are based on the number of points owned, period. So if you own more points, presumably you get to reserve more- whether more time, a bigger unit, or a more premium location or season- but you also pay more, both up front to purchase and on a on-going basis (higher MF's). I can see the equity argument from both perspectives; I think the rub here is int he switch mid-stream.

In the AP program, I can assume Platinum owners are happy that they get significantly more points, but aren't so thrilled about now paying the lion's share of the MF's. New points purchasers probably view that as making sense and being fair, because Bronze week owners are no longer purchasing the same 1 week use in a 2BR unit that the Platinum week owners are, just paying less up front to use in a lesser season. The point equivalent of a Bronze week will now likely be perceived as having a more realistic value, and buyers will feel they should pay the MF's accordingly, especially since the illusion Marriott promoted during sales of easy trades through II, using the lock off to trade into a 1BR or even a 2BR at another time, will no longer be there. What you own and what you get will clearly be there on the points chart, and salespeople will no longer be able to sell the elusive dream of easy up-trades.

The high MF Hawaii owner will likely like the system wide calculation of MF's, but Plat, week owners at other high value resorts may not appreciate paying the lion's share of the MF's. For Hawaii owners it is a win-win situation- all the weeks are already Plat. , with a few Plat. Plus, so dividing the MF's amongst seasons will have little difference, but since their MF's are on the high side, they will come down and the Manor Club, Branson and Orlando owners, etc., who have lower MF's, will basically be subsidizing the higher fees elsewhere.
 
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