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Should resale points get VIP benefits? (Please IGNORE the first 3 and pick among the last 6 Choices)

Should resale points qualify for VIP benefits?

  • YES

    Votes: 4 9.5%
  • NO

    Votes: 2 4.8%
  • DON'T CARE

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am a VIP - YES

    Votes: 10 23.8%
  • I am a VIP - NO

    Votes: 10 23.8%
  • I am a VIP - DON'T CARE

    Votes: 2 4.8%
  • I am Not a VIP - YES

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • I am not a VIP - NO

    Votes: 2 4.8%
  • I am not a VIP - DONT'CARE

    Votes: 5 11.9%

  • Total voters
    42

Sandi Bo

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I am VIP with resale and voted YES. I purchased resale with the understanding that at any time the contracts may not receive VIP benefits. They are my best contracts, maintenance fee-wise. I book a lot of reservations more than 60 days out and don't receive VIP benefits for what I book. I'm can't imagine Wyndham is doing this for me - but it's much simple to manage the way it is currently set up. If I book spring break, thanksgiving, summer at the beach, Christmas - I have to plan to pay full points and no discounts. Managing my reservations using developer points versus resale would be a pain in the a**, but doable. I think ya'll are worrying way too much about something that really doesn't matter that much. Maybe that is why Wyndham leaves things as they are - likely in the end not a significant difference in availability or points usage. And I still say they need the revenue (maintenance fees that are being paid). Pre-voyager, with cancel/rebook in play - it was a whole different ballgame.
 

Braindead

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but it's much simple to manage the way it is currently set up. If I book spring break, thanksgiving, summer at the beach, Christmas - I have to plan to pay full points and no discounts. Managing my reservations using developer points versus resale would be a pain in the a**, but doable. I think ya'll are worrying way too much about something that really doesn't matter that much. Maybe that is why Wyndham leaves things as they are - likely in the end not a significant difference in availability or points usage.

Pre-voyager, with cancel/rebook in play - it was a whole different ballgame.
In order to be VIPP you need to buy a minimum of almost 500k points from Wyndham with 2 Pics.
Why would Wyndham want to upset the apple cart with some of its most loyal group of owners by separating their contracts into 2 memberships?
Especially on top of the changes with Voyager.

I’ve posted that I think discounts & upgrades have dropped 70-80% since the changes with Voyager.
I’d like to hear from some other VIPs on the drop they’ve seen using their own accounts & what % of a drop on discounts & upgrades that amounts to.
Maybe that would help to ease the worry of some on availability.

I’d also like to hear from some other IT experienced VIP owners for their opinion on if the website could be programmed to leave resale & retail purchases in one account keeping the points separate for VIP benefits? From someone completely clueless it looks like it would be a nightmare if you start thinking of all the possibilities. Points can‘t be blind at 10 months or even ARP, for example an owner can have CWA contracts that are retail & resale. Every contract goes back to being completely separate on all reservations, even for ARP due to possible upgrades
Some things to think about if your a VIP or not that voted No, do you want to go back to identifying which contracts points are used for reservations & the problems that can cause
 
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SNA27

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Wyndham must be carrying a lot of baggage from Fairshare and Trendwest (known today as WorldMark by Wyndham). Both were non-profit and apparently had no VIP tiers. They had no reason to distinguish between developer and resale points. Once all the weeks are sold, how do they raise new capital to grow. Perhaps that led to their takeover bt Wyndham Hotels who were providing resort management services to TrendWest.Wyndham introduced VIP levels to boost developer sales but the database was not structured properly to provide itself the option of treating developer and resale points directly. All of this educated guess on my part based on what I have read so far.

Back in the '80s, I used to get frequent solicitations from some TS company called Silverlakes. I don't even like Condos and Townhomes and hated our single-family home being controlled by an HOA. Concept owning a TS with some shady operator maintaining it at my expense seemed a ridiculous idea then. Unless a major Publicly traded company stands behind it, TS is a bad idea. Some crook will embezzle the money to spend on vacations and gambling and HOA will be left holding the bag! It was in the news recently!
 
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bobinmich

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I am NOT a VIP....I voted YES. I think since an original buyer paid full retail price, all points should count towards VIP. It would also seriously INCREASE the resale price....so folks who have paid full price, and MF for years/decades, can NOW sell them for MORE money than just giving them back to Ovations or "paying" a broker to get rid of the points for you. If resale contracts counted towards VIP status, I believe the resale market price would increase dramatically. Just my .02 (about the resale cost on the dollar!)
 

SNA27

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I am NOT a VIP....I voted YES. I think since an original buyer paid full retail price, all points should count towards VIP. It would also seriously INCREASE the resale price....so folks who have paid full price, and MF for years/decades, can NOW sell them for MORE money than just giving them back to Ovations or "paying" a broker to get rid of the points for you. If resale contracts counted towards VIP status, I believe the resale market price would increase dramatically. Just my .02 (about the resale cost on the dollar!)
New cars are clearly distinguishable from used cars. There's depreciation involved. But a Developer TS is indistinguishable from Resale TS without the construct of VIP Potential. So, it would never make sense to bestow the same VIP benefits on resale points. Without developer purchases, Wyndham cannot get the capital infusion required to build new resorts.

Without new resorts and constant expansion, the business model will eventually fail as it requires new owners like a Ponzi Scheme. By that, I don't mean it's a fraudulent enterprise except that it too depends on new owners for survival.

TS model is about selling year-long (or more with PDF) claims to a perishable commodity that expires every single night. Eventually, claims build up and demand will outstrip supply and customers will become unhappy unable to get reservations of their choice at popular resorts.
 

Jan M.

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Wyndham must be carrying a lot of baggage from Fairshare and Trendwest (known today as WorldMark by Wyndham). Both were non-profit and apparent had no VIP tiers. They had no reason to distinguish between developer and resale points.
We've owned since 2002 back when it was Fairfield and did a sales presentation at least year before we eventually bought. There has been a VIP tiered program even farther back than that. There wasn't even an owner website back when we bought! You need more historical background for some of what you're saying to be correct assumptions.
 

bobinmich

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There are things Wyndham can do to recoup some money to help maintain the "capital infusion"....such as have a much higher "transfer fee" for resale points, say a certain dollar value per 1k points, or similar. Example, 29.95/1k resale transfer cost...126k contract would cost a resale buyer 3774 in transfer fees, above what they paid for the resale contract. That way Wyndham would be getting a much larger slice of the pie off of resale than they are now.
 

comicbookman

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Wyndham must be carrying a lot of baggage from Fairshare and Trendwest (known today as WorldMark by Wyndham). Both were non-profit and apparent had no VIP tiers. They had no reason to distinguish between developer and resale points. Once all the weeks are sold, how do they raise new capital to grow. Perhaps that led to their takeover bt Wyndham Hotels who were providing resort management services to TrendWest.Wyndham introduced VIP levels to boost developer sales but the database was not structured properly to provide itself the option of treating developer and resale points directly. All of this educated guess on my part based on what I have read so far.
I have never seen anything that leads me to believe fairfield or Trendwest were non-profits. Where did you get that from? (a quick search showed nothing to support that) While I have no doubt, as a 30 year IT professional, that Wyndham's databases are a mess, They do flag contracts as resale and developer. Just look at the printout the sales dweeb brings to the table. They use this field to determine if a contract is eligible for "trade-in" when they make their mathematically challenged offers. I doubt that basing restrictions on whether points are resale or not would be that difficult for a competent programmer. The real problem is the backlash and the effect on sales mentioned by others.

As a VIPP who has both a million dev points and a large amount of resale, I have occasionally gotten VIP benefits on reservations that arguably used resale points. None since the end of cancel re-book. I doubt it has any measurable effect on availability. As a Platinum owner It is hard to see how I could take advantage of my 60 day discounts and upgrades on pre-planned travel in excess of my dev points for normal use. (it is of course possible, but under non-comercial, non-retired use, seems implausible) I have gotten a few upgrades on reservations made up to 10 months out, but that was because there was a lot of availability at those locations.

I bought more points from Fairfield than I should have, back in the days before the easy ebay resale market. Frankly it never occurred to me that you could buy resale direct or through third parties. We initially had a simple need, 2 children excelling in 2 different sports and playing on travel teams and family vacations. Fairfield fit our needs nicely, and we got our moneys worth over the years. When I found Tugg and learned of the easy resale market and some new strategies for optimizing our point use, including getting our VIP benefits on our resale points despite what the directory said, we more than doubled our points and got a much better value. When our needs decreased, we sold, at no profit a couple of contracts and later when ovations came along used it as well. We often share with friends (we book several rooms at national harbor for Thanksgiving), but when they ask about purchasing for themselves, we always point them to Tugg and resale. I don't get upset that others can buy points for a tiny percentage of what I paid for our initial million. That position would gain me nothing, and if it were to cause restrictions, would hurt me as much as anybody else.

All of this is just my rambling way of saying that it appears to me that resale points getting VIP benefits is a non problem for wyndham, as evidenced by the removal of language from the directory, not a technological problem. Resale is the better way to purchase for the vast majority of people, but for those who have already bought dev points, tugg is the best resource for how to maximize the value of those points. Oh and I definitely miss Ron.
 

Eric B

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... I don't get upset that others can buy points for a tiny percentage of what I paid for our initial million. That position would gain me nothing, and if it were to cause restrictions, would hurt me as much as anybody else.
....
That captures the essence of my thoughts on this topic and aligns much better, IMHO, with the underlying reason TUG exists. I come to this site to share information on using timeshares efficiently and effectively. There has been minor aspects of that sort of information in this thread and the related ones, but much more contemplation of whether we are being treated fairly by the TS managers or whether people that follow certain aspects of the TS system are getting more than their fair share. Those aspects of the conversation strike me as having less value, though they can be entertaining. I know I paid more for the retail TS I own than I should have, but am recouping some of the value through various VIP benefits as I suspect others do as well. My thanks go out to all that share their tactics, techniques and procedures to do that. I have to admit, though, that I don’t truly appreciate the motivation one would have to want to eliminate or push to eliminate benefits anyone gets from any program. As I mentioned before, I don’t currently have any resale Wyndham points, so I don’t seem to have much to lose if this crusade to eliminate VIP benefits for them succeeds, which I believe is unlikely, but it does have a risk of eliminating an option for me and for many other TUG users, including OP. I just don’t have the animus against folks that learn how to use their ownerships well to advocate for what this seems to be driving at.
 

Eric B

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comicbookman

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Ok, but that’s the owners’ association, not the developer/manager. That’s not really surprising at all; I believe most if not all owners’ associations would be nonprofits.
To further make the point, Fairfield and Trendwest are separate from Worldmrak and Fairshare. Fairfield and Trendwest were for profit companies, just like Wyndham. Fairshare and Worldmark associations still exist and are still non-profits.
 

HitchHiker71

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I’d also like to hear from some other IT experienced VIP owners for their opinion on if the website could be programmed to leave resale & retail purchases in one account keeping the points separate for VIP benefits? From someone completely clueless it looks like it would be a nightmare if you start thinking of all the possibilities. Points can‘t be blind at 10 months or even ARP, for example an owner can have CWA contracts that are retail & resale. Every contract goes back to being completely separate on all reservations, even for ARP due to possible upgrades. Some things to think about if your a VIP or not that voted No, do you want to go back to identifying which contracts points are used for reservations & the problems that can cause.
The system already differentiates between different point buckets based upon contract status. The system today already disallows ARP bookings if you don't have enough ARP qualified points to make a booking. For example, last year I tried to making a booking in the ARP window that was beyond the number of CWA ARP points that I had available. At that time I still had two bonus contracts with points, along with PIC converted points for the future use year. My points bucket, which is a conglomeration of all available points, for the future use year, had more than enough points in it to make the booking, but my ARP qualified points only consisted of the leftover 134k CWA points. When I attempted to make the ARP booking - I received an error in red text indicating I only had 134000 ARP eligible points. In the use year, I had well over 400k bucketed use year points in comparison, but neither bonus nor PIC points are ARP eligible as the member directory spells out. This means the system is already capable of differentiating between point types, as is clearly evidenced by the fact that the system came back and told me in red highlighted text that I only had 134000 ARP eligible points to use for the booking in question.

With this in mind, I don't see any advantage in making the system more complex by completely separating out the points buckets into different accounts since the system already accounts for this functionality today. Perhaps the system could do a better job of delineating the points within your use year bucket and what those points are eligible to book against - this could be as simple as adding a few line items in the current system under the " Ownership | Points" area for each use year:

####### / Total Available Points | Total Use Year Points: #######
####### / ARP Available Points | Total Use Year ARP Points: #######
####### / VIP Available Points | Total Use Year VIP Points: ####### (would only display for VIP owners)

These values would change whenever you switch Use Years within the current interface. Screenshot below for ease of reference:

1579199303238.png


Were Wyndham to decide to enforce/limited resale contract VIP eligibility, they would simply modify the current code base to not include resale contract points in the "VIP" points bucket referenced above, and in so doing limit resale contracts for VIP owners.
 

dagger1

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New cars are clearly distinguishable from used cars. There's depreciation involved. But a Developer TS is indistinguishable from Resale TS without the construct of VIP Potential. So, it would never make sense to bestow the same VIP benefits on resale points. Without developer purchases, Wyndham cannot get the capital infusion required to build new resorts.

Without new resorts and constant expansion, the business model will eventually fail as it requires new owners like a Ponzi Scheme. By that, I don't mean it's a fraudulent enterprise except that it too depends on new owners for survival.

TS model is about selling year-long (or more with PDF) claims to a perishable commodity that expires every single night. Eventually, claims build up and demand will outstrip supply and customers will become unhappy unable to get reservations of their choice at popular resorts.
New resorts aren’t a requirement of Wyndham’s business plan. They replenish their inventory by means of Ovations and foreclosures. They get this “new” inventory for next to nothing and resell it for a small fortune. The lure of “VIP” benefits keeps some continually making purchases chasing the various tiers. Reservation math is also governed by law: if Wyndham sells more points than correlate to inventory, meaning “demand will outstrip supply”, that will result in lawsuits and possibly criminal prosecution.
 

HitchHiker71

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There are things Wyndham can do to recoup some money to help maintain the "capital infusion"....such as have a much higher "transfer fee" for resale points, say a certain dollar value per 1k points, or similar. Example, 29.95/1k resale transfer cost...126k contract would cost a resale buyer 3774 in transfer fees, above what they paid for the resale contract. That way Wyndham would be getting a much larger slice of the pie off of resale than they are now.
I would submit that Ovations itself is a growing source of capital infusion for Wyndham, since they are able to acquire both retail and resale contracts directly for no cost and then move those points into their unsold inventory pool for sale by the sales and marketing organization.
 
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Braindead

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The system already differentiates between different point buckets based upon contract status. The system today already disallows ARP bookings if you don't have enough ARP qualified points to make a booking. For example, last year I tried to making a booking in the ARP window that was beyond the number of CWA ARP points that I had available. At that time I still had two bonus contracts with points, along with PIC converted points for the future use year. My points bucket, which is a conglomeration of all available points, for the future use year, had more than enough points in it to make the booking, but my ARP qualified points only consisted of the leftover 134k CWA points. When I attempted to make the ARP booking - I received an error in red text indicating I only had 134000 ARP eligible points. In the use year, I had well over 400k bucketed use year points in comparison, but neither bonus nor PIC points are ARP eligible as the member directory spells out. This means the system is already capable of differentiating between point types, as is clearly evidenced by the fact that the system came back and told me in red highlighted text that I only had 134000 ARP eligible points to use for the booking in question.

With this in mind, I don't see any advantage in making the system more complex by completely separating out the points buckets into different accounts since the system already accounts for this functionality today. Perhaps the system could do a better job of delineating the points within your use year bucket and what those points are eligible to book against - this could be as simple as adding a few line items in the current system under the " Ownership | Points" area for each use year:

####### / Total Available Points | Total Use Year Points: #######
####### / ARP Available Points | Total Use Year ARP Points: #######
####### / VIP Available Points | Total Use Year VIP Points: ####### (would only display for VIP owners)

These values would change whenever you switch Use Years within the current interface. Screenshot below for ease of reference:

View attachment 16366

Were Wyndham to decide to enforce/limited resale contract VIP eligibility, they would simply modify the current code base to not include resale contract points in the "VIP" points bucket referenced above, and in so doing limit resale contracts for VIP owners.
I’ll clarify on where I was coming from. An owner could have 400k CWA retail & 400k CWA resale, you want an ARP reservation for 300k. How does the system know which one a VIP wants to use?
At 10 months how does the system know if a VIP wants to use resale points or retail points?
How does the system know which points you want saved for a possible ARP reservation even if the current reservation you’re making is for 10 months or less?
Current point allocations can’t do these task because it now goes back to points cannot be blind.

All reservations would need to know if your using retail or resale points & that goes back to which contract you’re using points from.

Points being blind using Point Allocations have made reservations 10 times easier. I don’t want to go back before point allocations & doubt if many do, you had deal with the old system to appreciate point allocations the way it is today.
 
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SNA27

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We've owned since 2002 back when it was Fairfield and did a sales presentation at least year before we eventually bought. There has been a VIP tiered program even farther back than that. There wasn't even an owner website back when we bought! You need more historical background for some of what you're saying to be correct assumptions.
I should have been clearer about what I meant by baggage. It's not that they inherited computer programs or databases or anything like that. The baggage I am talking about their view of data and how it's organized. They made Member as central to their data scheme but did not really appreciate the utility of maintaining granularity and the ability to distinguish between the developer and resale points. There is no need to comingle those points in a single use-year bucket to deprive the Reservation backend the ability to apply different rules if need be in the future.

Yes, they could crate resale and developer point use-years with the current structure but imo, it's a klutzy design. Currently, a single reservation can utilize points and HK credits from multiple use years. Needless complications will arise and bugs galore.

VIP benefit rules, imo, should be global to the context of reservation logic and that will be much more conducive to elegant and bug-free programming. Just my experience. Ymmv.
 

SNA27

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The system already differentiates between different point buckets based upon contract status. The system today already disallows ARP bookings if you don't have enough ARP qualified points to make a booking. For example, last year I tried to making a booking in the ARP window that was beyond the number of CWA ARP points that I had available. At that time I still had two bonus contracts with points, along with PIC converted points for the future use year. My points bucket, which is a conglomeration of all available points, for the future use year, had more than enough points in it to make the booking, but my ARP qualified points only consisted of the leftover 134k CWA points. When I attempted to make the ARP booking - I received an error in red text indicating I only had 134000 ARP eligible points. In the use year, I had well over 400k bucketed use year points in comparison, but neither bonus nor PIC points are ARP eligible as the member directory spells out. This means the system is already capable of differentiating between point types, as is clearly evidenced by the fact that the system came back and told me in red highlighted text that I only had 134000 ARP eligible points to use for the booking in question.

With this in mind, I don't see any advantage in making the system more complex by completely separating out the points buckets into different accounts since the system already accounts for this functionality today. Perhaps the system could do a better job of delineating the points within your use year bucket and what those points are eligible to book against - this could be as simple as adding a few line items in the current system under the " Ownership | Points" area for each use year:

####### / Total Available Points | Total Use Year Points: #######
####### / ARP Available Points | Total Use Year ARP Points: #######
####### / VIP Available Points | Total Use Year VIP Points: ####### (would only display for VIP owners)

These values would change whenever you switch Use Years within the current interface. Screenshot below for ease of reference:

View attachment 16366

Were Wyndham to decide to enforce/limited resale contract VIP eligibility, they would simply modify the current code base to not include resale contract points in the "VIP" points bucket referenced above, and in so doing limit resale contracts for VIP owners.
Multiple Buckets in a record to serve as accumulators of subsets of children (deeds)? This violates basic database normalization rules. If you have a lot of programming experience with powerful relation databases like Oracle or SQLServer, you will see how this leads to a lot of linear processing and does not take advantage of 'set processing' utilizing the powerful database engine. I will see how I can explain this with simple examples later. In the meantime, you can google the highlighted phrases.
 
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Braindead

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There is no need to comingle those points in a single use-year bucket to deprive the Reservation backend the ability to apply different rules if need be in the future.

Yes, they could crate resale and developer point use-years with the current structure but imo, it's a klutzy design. Currently, a single reservation can utilize points and HK credits from multiple use years. Needless complications will arise and bugs galore.
Your idea is another disaster. The system uses the first points to expire & everyone wants it that way, you may not think so but trust the rest of us you do
I don’t want multiple use years, again that only complicates everything from usage to points deposit.
You weren’t around for the discussion on if points are blind.
Points are blind at 10 months & again trust us everyone wants points to be blind at 10 months even you

You’re going to get tired of hearing it but you don’t have the experience & experiences that others have here.
 

dgalati

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I would submit that Ovations itself is a growing source of capital infusion for Wyndham, since they are able to acquire both retail and resale contracts directly for no cost and then move those points into their unsold inventory pool for sale by the sales and marketing organization.
Yes very lucrative especially when Wyndham has the ability to squeeze out the little guys like me and a few others. We were doing the very same thing Wyndham was" buying low selling high". I was buying low, using the points for personal use then selling to cover all my expenses. Was a very low cost way to travel for years. It was very easy for many years but with Ovations and the negative balance issue it has become a little more work then its worth.
 

SNA27

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Your idea is another disaster. The system uses the first points to expire & everyone wants it that way, you may not think so but trust the rest of us.
I don’t want multiple use years, again that only complicates everything from usage to points deposit.
You weren’t around for the discussion on if points are blind.
Points are blind at 10 months & again trust me everyone wants points to be blind even you ounce you fully understand.

You’re going to get tired of hearing but you don’t have the experience & experiences that others have here.
Could you please make your points without personal attacks? It's much better that way.

Do you really think I don't know the system uses the first points to expire?
If you have read my posts about it taking points from current use year instead of the bonus year and how I had to call owner care to shift points from bonus year to current year, you won't be making such statements.
Are you saying I don't have the experience to make comments about database design? What exactly is the experience you have about data and how to organize it?
 

comicbookman

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Multiple Buckets in a record to serve as accumulators of subsets of children (deeds)? This violates basic database normalization rules. If you have a lot of programming experience with powerful relation databases like Oracle or SQLServer, you will see how this leads to a lot of linear processing and does not take advantage of 'set processing' utilizing the powerful database engine. I will see how I can explain this with simple examples later. In the meantime, you can google the highlighted phrases.
So, you have seen the database scheme Wyndham is using? Or are you simply theorizing? Because it seems to me you keep saying things slightly differently every time someone points out a possible flaw in what you have said previously. As opposed to clarifying your description of something that actually exists. For example you initially said the database cannot distinguish Dev and resale points. now you are saying it does not do it in the most efficient manner.
 

dgalati

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Your idea is another disaster. The system uses the first points to expire & everyone wants it that way, you may not think so but trust the rest of us you do
I don’t want multiple use years, again that only complicates everything from usage to points deposit.
You weren’t around for the discussion on if points are blind.
Points are blind at 10 months & again trust us everyone wants points to be blind at 10 months even you

You’re going to get tired of hearing it but you don’t have the experience & experiences that others have here.
I disagree on the needed experience. Look at Britannia, Sears along with many other retailers they were around a long time and had many experienced and knowledgeable associates. Where are they all today? New ideas and the disruptors of the way business was done in the past has changed the way business operate today. Embrace change and new ideas think about how easy life has become by doing so.
 

SNA27

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Grand Desert - Flagstaff - Waikiki-Beachwalk+2PICs - Bonnet-Creek - Smoky-Mountains - NO CWA/NO RESALE
So, you have seen the database scheme Wyndham is using? Or are you simply theorizing? Because it seems to me you keep saying things slightly differently every time someone points out a possible flaw in what you have said previously. As opposed to clarifying your description of something that actually exists. For example you initially said the database cannot distinguish Dev and resale points. now you are saying it does not do it in the most efficient manner.
Where did you read that? I have only said deeds that are clearly identified as retail or resale feed into the same use-year bucket and get comingled. So, the Reservation backend which uses the use-year bucket loses the ability to distinguish between points.
Obviously, I am theorizing without the benefit of a peek into their database. I have said that repeatedly.
And what has been pointed out? I must have missed that. What flaw is there with one member- 2 accounts other than 'I don't like it'?
 

HitchHiker71

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Multiple Buckets in a record to serve as accumulators of subsets of children (deeds)? This violates basic database normalization rules. If you have a lot of programming experience with powerful relation databases like Oracle or SQLServer, you will see how this leads to a lot of linear processing and does not take advantage of 'set processing' utilizing the powerful database engine. I will see how I can explain this with simple examples later. In the meantime, you can google the highlighted phrases.
These are all gross assumptions, so I see no value in continuing this conversation. Neither you nor I have any visibility into the Wyndham systems, and my IT contact has long since departed so I cannot get answers. I really feel this entire exercise is pointless. I am bowing out and unsubscribing from this thread. Best of luck in your future endeavors.
 
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