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Senior MVCI sources have told me that ALL VC points are equal!

seema

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Three senior MVCI sources have told me that the program (internally, administratively) changed sometime in the summer of 2010.

From then on, all Vacation Club Points have been considered equal.

Until then, I guess the thinking (which I see on this bulletin board - as an example, see post #2 of this thread: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167911) has been that legacy week points and trust points go into 2 separate pools of points - the trust points could access the legacy week points, but the legacy week points could not access the trust points.

Now, and this is a quote from one of the sources,

"I can, however assure you that once points whether they be from the trust or exchange source are in the Destinations program they have equal power and access"

I have an email from a second source as well, which more or less states that the same thing.


One of these 3 sources, in addition, told me that now the 2 sets of points are co-mingled in a third pool of points - called the flex points pool (not to be confused with flex change of II) - so any type of reservation made by any type or combination of VC points comes from this source.

I was told that everyone (including all all sales representatives) at sales presentations, know about the features that all points (both legacy week and trust) are considered to be equal in value and in access.

However, I was also told that the concept of "flex" pool of mingled/combined legacy week points and trust points was an internal MCVI administrative matter - and that virtually no one at MVCI resorts would not know of this concept. I was told that the legal department of MVCI would not allow the statement of the presence a flex pool to be sent out to a customer (ie me) in a documented (ie email) form; however, I was told that the concept of the two sets of points be equal (implying that they are really only one set of points, when used for various reservation) and co-mingled in a third common pool are implied in the contracts and disclosures. One of the sources went over the appropriate sections of the contract - but there was no way I could interpret the legal wording in the contract to be able to say the contract says that all points are equal by virtue of them being co-mingled in a third "flex" pool.

I am wondering how many people at Owner Services know about the equality of the 2 sets of points. I called earlier this week; I spoke to someone - he was not aware of this until he spoke to his supervisor. I have a friend who is an enrolled owner of a legacy week at three different MVCI resorts - he called his vacation advisor and that vacation advisor could not confirm the equality of the 2 sets of vacation club points.

I was at a resort last week - at a sale presentation - I was an legacy week owner at Ko Olina. I was enticed to buy some extra trust points - so I am now a premier owner - one of my conditions of enrolling my legacy week and buying the extra trust points (to become a premier member) was that my legacy week points and my trust points, for any and all usage, would be totally equal.
 
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siberiavol

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Why then would I be told there was availability and a minute later be told the property was only available to trust point owners not legacy DC owners?

That happened recently to me. That doesn't indicate they are treating the points the same in every case. Thoughts?
 

seema

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Why then would I be told there was availability and a minute later be told the property was only available to trust point owners not legacy DC owners?

That happened recently to me. That doesn't indicate they are treating the points the same in every case. Thoughts?

As mentioned in my post, not all (perhaps not many) vacation advisors know of the equality of the points. I would suggest that you go to the supervisor at the vacation owners call centre in Utah - and you can quote my post - I was given permission to quote (on a non-attributed basis) my statements. If you still do not get satisfaction, I can go to my source, with the particulars of your case - and that person can speak to the vacation advisor and the supervisor whom you spoke to - I am sure it will be sorted out. As I have mentioned, three senior people told me about the concept of equality of points - 2 more junior people at the Owner Services call centre were not aware of this concept.
 

SueDonJ

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I won't believe it until someone is able to reserve a single night of Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy points. Even better, reserve it at the 13-mos mark.

No offense, Seema, but there's nothing that makes your "senior MVCI sources" any more credible than others who are saying things that do not mesh with what you're hearing. Until Marriott gets its act together and can answer all these lingering questions with a unified voice, and can show us examples of their words in action, then there's reason to doubt what any of them say. Especially if they don't allow their names to be publicly released with their statements.
 

seema

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I won't believe it until someone is able to reserve a single night of Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy points. Even better, reserve it at the 13-mos mark.

No offense, Seema, but there's nothing that makes your "senior MVCI sources" any more credible than others who are saying things that do not mesh with what you're hearing. Until Marriott gets its act together and can answer all these lingering questions with a unified voice, and can show us examples of their words in action, then there's reason to doubt what any of them say. Especially if they don't allow their names to be publicly released with their statements.

In terms of the 13 month issue, I was told that if a legacy week (single week owner) is booked that way, the 12 month timeline for advance booking still applies. If one wants to convert that legacy week into vacation club points, and if is a basic (ie non-premier) owner, than one can book 13 months in advance, but with a premium (I think it is 20%) on the points.

In terms of non-attribution versus attribution, if there are issues with the statement (ie if owners are still being told that trust points and legacy week points are not considered identical in terms of use), then I will have no trouble connecting such owners to my main source.

Remember, my sentence is a direct quote, from an email I got from my source. A second source sent me an almost identically worded email. How many people will be willing to even go that far - put their words in writing - that is in my opinion not all that usual - of course, it would (I agree with you) have been preferable if I could name the person who sent me the email.

If there is a discrepancy in what MVCI is saying on this issue, especially in writing (eg email), I would be interested in seeing written words from MVCI stating that the 2 sets of points are not equal.
 
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fluke

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I think the quote is true - in regards to the exchange company. Clearly the trust inventory can only be accessed by the trust owners until that magical moment(not a well defined moment) when they are transferred to the exchange company. Just as legacy inventory (individual weeks) cannot be accessed in the exchange company until they are deposited (points elected).

So all points are equal in the exchange company(inventory). Several experiences have been posted on this board including my own @ Ko Olina Christmas/New Years 2012/2013 that confirm these differences.
 

SueDonJ

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In terms of the 13 month issue, I was told that if a legacy week (single week owner) is booked that way, the 12 month timeline for advance booking still applies. If one wants to convert that legacy week into vacation club points, and if is a basic (ie non-premier) owner, than one can book 13 months in advance, but with a premium (I think it is 20%) on the points. ...

Right. Whatever status you have as a DC Member has no bearing on the rules for Weeks and vice-versa. If you're booking Weeks then you follow the usual Reservation Windows for a single week (12-months mark) or for multi concurrent/consecutive weeks (13-months mark.) If you've enrolled/converted Weeks or purchased DC Points and want to book a DC stay with those points, then your Reservation Window depends upon whether you are a DC Standard Member (up to 6,499 DC Points,) a DC Premier Member (6,500-12,000 DC Points) or a DC Premier Plus Member (13,000+ DC Points.) And yes, the points premium for Standard Members to book in advance of their usual windows is 20%.

But I'm not questioning the Reservation Windows here. I'm saying that there is one thing which will definitively prove or disprove what your rep is saying, and that is the ability to book a single night of direct Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy Points. It doesn't matter if Mr. Marriott himself says that it can be done - the proof is in whether or not a VOA can make it happen through the usual booking system. As yet they've not been able.

In terms of non-attribution versus attribution, if there are issues with the statement (ie if owners are still being told that trust points and legacy week points are not considered identical in terms of use), then I will have no trouble connecting such owners to my main source.

But my point is that unless your "main source" and all other MVCI execs say the same thing, which is not happening now and hasn't been happening since the DC inception, then we can't rely on any of them for a definitive statement. There are quite a few of us here on TUG who have contacted various Marriott reps ranging from call center VOA's all the way up to execs/VP's in several Marriott offices (sales, legal, customer advocacy, etc.) None of us has any reason to believe that what we're being told should be taken as gospel, especially when the DC legal docs do not support what one of them is saying. You said yourself in your first post that, "there was no way I could interpret the legal wording in the contract to be able to say the contract says that all points are equal by virtue of them being co-mingled in a third "flex" pool." Most of us have learned when talking to Marriott reps that if we can't find supporting language in the docs, then most likely what's being said is probably not correct.

I think it's great that you have contacts and can contribute what they're saying to the discussions on TUG. Like all the rest of the noise, though, it's not a good idea for any of us to rely on statements that aren't supported by docs. Until an official statement is released with a Marriott exec's name on it, there just isn't any support to substantiate any of the various claims of "a point is a point is a point."
 

SueDonJ

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I think the quote is true - in regards to the exchange company. Clearly the trust inventory can only be accessed by the trust owners until that magical moment(not a well defined moment) when they are transferred to the exchange company. Just as legacy inventory (individual weeks) cannot be accessed in the exchange company until they are deposited (points elected).

So all points are equal in the exchange company(inventory). Several experiences have been posted on this board including my own @ Ko Olina Christmas/New Years 2012/2013 that confirm these differences.

That's been my take all along. Trust and Legacy Points are equal in that it doesn't cost more to use one or the other for a reservation, but the docs do not support a claim of them having equal direct access to Trust inventory. It's a technical distinction that's made inconsequential when Trust inventory is moved to the DC Exchange Company. Until Trust inventory is moved to the EC, though, it cannot be reserved using Legacy Points.

We all want this to be simpler! But these "points are points" claims won't be proven until somebody is able to book through the regular reservation channels, a single night of Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy points.
 
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seema

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I think the quote is true - in regards to the exchange company. Clearly the trust inventory can only be accessed by the trust owners until that magical moment(not a well defined moment) when they are transferred to the exchange company. Just as legacy inventory (individual weeks) cannot be accessed in the exchange company until they are deposited (points elected).

So all points are equal in the exchange company(inventory). Several experiences have been posted on this board including my own @ Ko Olina Christmas/New Years 2012/2013 that confirm these differences.

I think there is some confusion in my mind about terminology.

I have used the terms: deeded weeks pool of vacation club points, trust inventory of vacation club points, a common pool of deeded week and trust points (known as the flex pool). I am not quite sure whether your terms regarding "trust inventory" apply to the term I used as the "trust" pool of points. I am not sure what you mean by "exchange company" - I am presuming it is equivalent to the "flex pool"? Of course, I presume you do not mean II as the "exchange company".
 

SueDonJ

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... Remember, my sentence is a direct quote, from an email I got from my source. A second source sent me an almost identically worded email. How many people will be willing to even go that far - put their words in writing - that is in my opinion not all that usual - of course, it would (I agree with you) have been preferable if I could name the person who sent me the email.

If there is a discrepancy in what MVCI is saying on this issue, especially in writing (eg email), I would be interested in seeing written words from MVCI stating that the 2 sets of points are not equal.

(just noticed your edit)

Actually, many Marriott reps have put statements into e-mails - some of us have been asking these questions since the DC inception. Seeing as there are discrepancies in all the e-mails, what makes one more believable than another?

I don't think it's necessary to see written words stating that Legacy and Trust points do not have equal access, not when that's the premise that's supported by the DC docs. If Marriott has cooked up something that amends the info in those docs, those amendments are what I want to see in writing from an official named source.
 

seema

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Right. Whatever status you have as a DC Member has no bearing on the rules for Weeks and vice-versa. If you're booking Weeks then you follow the usual Reservation Windows for a single week (12-months mark) or for multi concurrent/consecutive weeks (13-months mark.) If you've enrolled/converted Weeks or purchased DC Points and want to book a DC stay with those points, then your Reservation Window depends upon whether you are a DC Standard Member (up to 6,499 DC Points,) a DC Premier Member (6,500-12,000 DC Points) or a DC Premier Plus Member (13,000+ DC Points.) And yes, the points premium for Standard Members to book in advance of their usual windows is 20%.

."


I agree with you; I think that there is very little controversy in TUG or between MVCI owners and MVCI on the statements above.
The controversy remains, on the equality of trust vs legacy week points.
 

windje2000

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But these "points are points" claims won't be proven until somebody is able to book through the regular reservation channels, a single night of Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy points.

Not gonna happen. The system is and always will be denominated in weeks. That's what you own. That's what the Trust owns.

The Trust and Exchange Company both account for their inventory of occupancy by the day, since they have different prices for different days in different seasons. Days are the lowest common denominator in the system. Fractional days are not available. {The only place that happens is in 'hot sheet' lodgings. They can do that because their rates are hourly. :)}

If you could book a day with a combination of Trust and exchange co points, the trust and the exchange company inventories would each reflect a fraction of a day. Won't happen.

The $64,000 questions are:

1. the priorities within the exchange co for legacy v. trust points, and

2. the timing of inventory transfers from Trust to Exchange when trust owners book exchange co inventory, and

3. the quality of the inventory transferred from Trust to Exchange when trust owners book exchange inventory.
 

seema

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(just noticed your edit)

Actually, many Marriott reps have put statements into e-mails - some of us have been asking these questions since the DC inception. Seeing as there are discrepancies in all the e-mails, what makes one more believable than another?

I don't think it's necessary to see written words stating that Legacy and Trust points do not have equal access, not when that's the premise that's supported by the DC docs. If Marriott has cooked up something that amends the info in those docs, those amendments are what I want to see in writing from an official named source.

Can you post an excerpt of the DC documents, stating that the Legacy and Trust points do not have equal access?
 

SueDonJ

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Can you post an excerpt of the DC documents, stating that the Legacy and Trust points do not have equal access?

First, the technical distinction that I see is that Legacy Points do not have equal direct access to Trust inventory until/unless it's moved to the DC Exchange Company by Marriott. That isn't stated in so many words in any one place in the docs, but to me it appears to be the logical way to interpret the setup of the DC system. Here's an older thread with an explanation of how I think this all works; better to link it than try to remember it all and type it here again. (Another link I like to use during these discussions is this one, to TUGger dioxide's thread that details Marriott's Trust conveyances.)

Several times I've sent links of different TUG threads to my Marriott exec contacts and asked them to comment on what we're thinking - nothing "official" has come from those requests but their comments do lead me in certain directions. You could always ask your contacts to review this thread and give you their take ...
 
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dioxide45

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The trust owns weeks, deeded weeks owners own weeks. Trust owners can't reserve what they don't own and deeded weeks owners can't reserve what we don't own. For example, if the trust owners five weeks at Grande Ocean, trust point owners can't reserve more than 5 weeks at Grande Ocean. In fact, it wouldn't even be able to break more than 5 weeks with single night reservations because it would lock out legacy owners from use.

Now when it comes to legacy owners and the DC exchange company, then the lines get blurred. If a trust owner makes a reservation that pulls from the exchange company, trust inventory is supposed to move from the trust bucket in to the exchange company. Of course the inventory must be there in the exchange company for this to happen. This inventory comes from us legacy owners that convert our weeks to DC points.

If a legacy owner wants to make a DC points reservation, they look to see if the inventory is in the exchange company, if it is then the owner gets the confirmation. If it isn't then there could be several options.

  • They look to II to see if they can make an exchange between the DC exchange company and II to get the owner the points based reservation they want.
  • They could also look to the trust to see if they could make an exchange for the desired inventory.
It is also possible that the exchange company isn't exchanging physical inventory at all and just exchanging points between the trust and the exchange company. This would be the ideal situation and was assumed early how it would work, but we don't really know if that is how it is working. Ideally if a trust owner pulls from the DC exchange company the exchange company would have use of X,XXX number of points. When a legacy owner comes along and wants a reservation and the inventory isn't in the exchange company, it should be able to use that pool of trust points that are sitting there to make a reservation from the trust. This goes back to the old analogy based on marbles and cookies from the early days after DC launch.

If this is how it is working, then it would be safe to say that all points have equal access, almost. Those trust points would have to be sitting in the DC exchange company, if not, the legacy owner would have to wait-list until some of those points were deposited.
 

wvacations

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The trust owns weeks, deeded weeks owners own weeks. Trust owners can't reserve what they don't own and deeded weeks owners can't reserve what we don't own. For example, if the trust owners five weeks at Grande Ocean, trust point owners can't reserve more than 5 weeks at Grande Ocean. In fact, it wouldn't even be able to break more than 5 weeks with single night reservations because it would lock out legacy owners from use.

Now when it comes to legacy owners and the DC exchange company, then the lines get blurred. If a trust owner makes a reservation that pulls from the exchange company, trust inventory is supposed to move from the trust bucket in to the exchange company. Of course the inventory must be there in the exchange company for this to happen. This inventory comes from us legacy owners that convert our weeks to DC points.

If a legacy owner wants to make a DC points reservation, they look to see if the inventory is in the exchange company, if it is then the owner gets the confirmation. If it isn't then there could be several options.

  • They look to II to see if they can make an exchange between the DC exchange company and II to get the owner the points based reservation they want.
  • They could also look to the trust to see if they could make an exchange for the desired inventory.
It is also possible that the exchange company isn't exchanging physical inventory at all and just exchanging points between the trust and the exchange company. This would be the ideal situation and was assumed early how it would work, but we don't really know if that is how it is working. Ideally if a trust owner pulls from the DC exchange company the exchange company would have use of X,XXX number of points. When a legacy owner comes along and wants a reservation and the inventory isn't in the exchange company, it should be able to use that pool of trust points that are sitting there to make a reservation from the trust. This goes back to the old analogy based on marbles and cookies from the early days after DC launch.

If this is how it is working, then it would be safe to say that all points have equal access, almost. Those trust points would have to be sitting in the DC exchange company, if not, the legacy owner would have to wait-list until some of those points were deposited.


Very nice play by play of how the inventory can be moved. I agree 100% with you and this falls right inline with the legal documents.
 

Werner Weiss

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Unfortunately, there's a lot of misunderstanding (by Marriott Vacation Club owners, sales people, and other employees) about how the pools of inventory work. There has to be deeded Trust inventory (new ownership model) and deeded weeks inventory (old ownership model) — and the DC exchange pool to bring the two together.

Here's a thread from December 2011 with a thorough discussion of the distinctions:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160001

The Marriott Destinations Club program should look as seamless as possible on the outside, regardless of the type of ownership, while being legal on the inside.
 
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m61376

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FractionalTraveler

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I don't see that as an option. Looks like you have to choose between one or the other. That's kinda nice though. I like that they gave me the choice.
 

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Senior MVCI sources have told me that ALL VC points are equal

My wife and I attended a presentation in Orlando in November 2011. We were told that if we purchased 1000 of the new DC points that all of our points from converting our weeks would be equal and be able to be used whenever and wherever we wanted, before signing the contract we asked one more time if ALL of the points would be equal, the answer was yes.
When we returned home I contacted Mr. Steve Weisz's office and asked the same question to the gentleman who took my call, and was told that the two types of points are NOT equal and NEVER would be equal.
With that information we cancelled our contract, if fact, the gentleman who I spoke to offered to cancel the contract for us.
Once the email was sent to cancel we received calls from the salesman and his manager telling me that I misunderstood the presentation, I repeated some of his quotes and the conversation was over.
Unless Marriott has once again changed their course, the DC and legacy points will never be equal.
 

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SueDonJ

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I don't see that as an option. Looks like you have to choose between one or the other. That's kinda nice though. I like that they gave me the choice.

Thinking about this more, and having never seen that particular interface before, I'm thinking that we'll have a definite answer as to this "a point is a point is a point" thing as soon as somebody with both types of points comes across a certain inventory request that can only be made using Trust Points. Because if something can be booked using either type, the possibility that the DC Exchange Company is being utilized will exist. But if something is only available using Trust Points, then we'll know that inventory is a direct Trust conveyance.

Hmmmm. I think. Or, am I missing something?
 

FractionalTraveler

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Thinking about this more, and having never seen that particular interface before, I'm thinking that we'll have a definite answer as to this "a point is a point is a point" thing as soon as somebody with both types of points comes across a certain inventory request that can only be made using Trust Points. Because if something can be booked using either type, the possibility that the DC Exchange Company is being utilized will exist. But if something is only available using Trust Points, then we'll know that inventory is a direct Trust conveyance.

Hmmmm. I think. Or, am I missing something?

OK Sue, I found one that lets me combine both legacy and trust points for a 2-night stay in Maui. Looks like I can select the entire 2K points from the trust or combine them for the total stay.

https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...TAu3Jg/Combined Points Reservation.png?psid=1


Cool stuff!
 

SueDonJ

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OK Sue, I found one that lets me combine both legacy and trust points for a 2-night stay in Maui. Looks like I can select the entire 2K points from the trust or combine them for the total stay.

https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...TAu3Jg/Combined Points Reservation.png?psid=1


Cool stuff!

I agree - cool stuff! Now I'm wishing I had DC Points available to play with this thing! :) We're about a month out from figuring out what to do in 2013; maybe then I'll be in the playground.

This latest you found still counts the points per night and won't let you combine the two types for a single night. And we still don't know the origin of the inventory. Unless, do you have more than the 1,000 Legacy Points available to play with? Do you have the 2,000 that this stay costs? Because if you do they're not letting you use 2,000 total Legacy points to book it, which leads me to think one of the nights must be Trust inventory. (But if you don't have the 2,000 Legacy points that thought goes out the window. :) )
 
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