Recorded Trust Documents

[dioxide45]

Which resort is Kalanipu'u?
I'm not familiar with that location.

Kauai Lagoons?

 

[siberiavol]

Many of the Hilton Head properties are coming from the homeowners association or the "master in equity". That is at least one title for the person that handles foreclosures in South Carolina.

 

[hotcoffee]

That is good news for us DC members because we are likely going to see a lot of those get into the exchange pool.

Looks like a lot of DC people are going to be going to California and Hawaii in the upcoming years. Its hard to believe all of that MOC is in there. And, man-o-man, is that a ton of Ko Olina inventory or what?

It would be nice to be able to break down the seasonal resorts in the list to their seasons. I'd still like to see more Hilton Head weeks getting in there.

No Caribbean yet.

 

[Whirl]

That is good news for us DC members because we are likely going to see a lot of those get into the exchange pool.

Looks like a lot of DC people are going to be going to California and Hawaii in the upcoming years. Its hard to believe all of that MOC is in there. And, man-o-man, is that a ton of Ko Olina inventory or what?

It would be nice to be able to break down the seasonal resorts in the list to their seasons. I'd still like to see more Hilton Head weeks getting in there.

No Caribbean yet.

However, as I posted in another thread....the foreclosures that seem to be getting into the trust ( at least for Hilton Head, which I try to follow) are almost ALL non-prime weeks. The prime weeks and views seem to be being re-sold by Marriott as legacy weeks, so this will not be providing opportunity for anyone who plans to try to trade into a prime summer Hilton Head week.

JMO.

 

[GregT]

That is good news for us DC members because we are likely going to see a lot of those get into the exchange pool.

Looks like a lot of DC people are going to be going to California and Hawaii in the upcoming years. Its hard to believe all of that MOC is in there. And, man-o-man, is that a ton of Ko Olina inventory or what?

It would be nice to be able to break down the seasonal resorts in the list to their seasons. I'd still like to see more Hilton Head weeks getting in there.

No Caribbean yet.

This was exactly my reaction to the list -- I am happy to see the quantity of Ko Olina in the trust. The number of Ko Olina points in the trust is (roughly) equivalent to almost 40 entire units, 52 weeks per year. That's alot of inventory.

I'm curious if this will ever make it to the 50% off specials that they appear to be running every 6 weeks ---- a 50% special for Ko Olina in a shoulder season would be 1,600 points for a 1BR OV week, 1,350 points for a 1BR MV. That would certainly be a good points deal.

Best to all,

Greg

 

[hotcoffee]

The number of Ko Olina points in the trust is (roughly) equivalent to almost 40 entire units, 52 weeks per year. That's alot of inventory.

I'm curious if this will ever make it to the 50% off specials that they appear to be running every 6 weeks ---- a 50% special for Ko Olina in a shoulder season would be 1,600 points for a 1BR OV week, 1,350 points for a 1BR MV. That would certainly be a good points deal. . . .

Using your numbers, let's assume Ko Olina has over 2000 weeks of various types in the Trust. Add to that the amount of MOC in there. And to that the amount of Kauai Lagoons. Going to Hawaii is not cheap. Are there enough DC members willing to fly to Hawaii each year to maintain full (or nearly full) occupancy? Even using some of it for specials might not get them full occupancy every week of the year. I suspect that they will have to eventually dump some of it into II.

 

[rickxylon]

The problem with all of these points is that we don't know which weeks they are for. I would guess there are not very many platinum weeks.

 

[SueDonJ]

The problem with all of these points is that we don't know which weeks they are for. I would guess there are not very many platinum weeks.

Sure we do, or at least we can figure it out by clicking on the various links that dioxide has provided. For example, click on the first link in Post #46 and scroll through the pages. On page 1 of that filing you can see that a total 69,750 points from Barony Beach units has been conveyed to the Trust. On pages 6 and 7 there's a chart called "Chart C Derivations" where you learn that those points represent a total of 53 Weeks; the Use Period column is where you find that 29 of the Weeks are Bronze and 24 are Silver.

FWIW, Barony Beach owners were asked to vote at the Annual Meeting (10/29/10 - no results yet) whether or not the HOA can implement a non-judicial foreclosure process, which I imagine will make it easier for Marriott to convey more interests to the Trust. Weren't there other resorts this year that brought the same issue up for a vote? I think I remember reading it here on TUG ...

Dioxide, once again thanks so much for your efforts here. Nice work!

 

[dioxide45]

FWIW, Barony Beach owners were asked to vote at the Annual Meeting (10/29/10 - no results yet) whether or not the HOA can implement a non-judicial foreclosure process, which I imagine will make it easier for Marriott to convey more interests to the Trust. Weren't there other resorts this year that brought the same issue up for a vote? I think I remember reading it here on TUG ...

Yes. Both of our Florida resorts have this on the ballot.

 

[hotcoffee]

The problem with all of these points is that we don't know which weeks they are for. I would guess there are not very many platinum weeks.

I was referring to Hawaii in my previous post. So that is not an issue. The SC weeks in there are all winter weeks. Not surprising. Hopefully, by the time I will be interested in exchanging into one of them, they will have some deposits available. I doubt we will see any added to the Trust.

 

[dioxide45]

Using your numbers, let's assume Ko Olina has over 2000 weeks of various types in the Trust. Add to that the amount of MOC in there. And to that the amount of Kauai Lagoons. Going to Hawaii is not cheap. Are there enough DC members willing to fly to Hawaii each year to maintain full (or nearly full) occupancy? Even using some of it for specials might not get them full occupancy every week of the year. I suspect that they will have to eventually dump some of it into II.

I agree. There are not enough DC members to absorb all of the unsold inventory. Given the cost of many of the weeks, there will be plenty to be deposited for very many years.

 

[dioxide45]

It would be nice to be able to break down the seasonal resorts in the list to their seasons.there.

If you have a spare month or so, have at it. The information is all there in the links.

 

[SueDonJ]

I was referring to Hawaii in my previous post. So that is not an issue. The SC weeks in there are all winter weeks. Not surprising. Hopefully, by the time I will be interested in exchanging into one of them, they will have some deposits available. I doubt we will see any added to the Trust.

As long as owners convert their Weeks to DC Points, deposit their Weeks with II, exchange them for MR Points or give them to Marriott for rentals, then there will be inventory available for DC exchanges. On the first day we could make DC reservations I got a 6-day stay at Grande Ocean for next June (Plat season, and could have had the 7-day Week if I wanted it.)

But I do agree with you that it will be nice to eventually see some Gold/Plat HHI Weeks conveyed to the Trust.

 

[dioxide45]

As long as owners convert their Weeks to DC Points, deposit their Weeks with II, exchange them for MR Points or give them to Marriott for rentals, then there will be inventory available for DC exchanges. On the first day we could make DC reservations I got a 6-day stay at Grande Ocean for next June (Plat season, and could have had the 7-day Week if I wanted it.)

But I do agree with you that it will be nice to eventually see some Gold/Plat HHI Weeks conveyed to the Trust.

I think Marriott will end up counting on the enrolled owners depositing inventory to the MVC Exchange Company rather than putting prime weeks in the trust. I think Marriott will continue to sell prime weeks in HHI as weeks. Either those acquired from reacquires or as resales for owners. They did this with a couple prime ski weeks not long ago.

There is just too much profit to be made reselling these as weeks vs placing them in a trust already seeded with lots of points.

Points are points when Marriott sells them. Going back to the early and even prediction threads this was heavily discussed. Marriott will sell the dream but in the long run may only be able to deliver the nightmare if all the trust has is dog weeks.

Marriott will rely heavily on enrolled owners and after a few years will have enough data to reliably predict what to expect to be deposited each year.

 

[GregT]

I think Marriott will end up counting on the enrolled owners depositing inventory to the MVC Exchange Company rather than putting prime weeks in the trust.

Points are points when Marriott sells them. Marriott will sell the dream but in the long run may only be able to deliver the nightmare if all the trust has is dog weeks.

Marriott will rely heavily on enrolled owners and after a few years will have enough data to reliably predict what to expect to be deposited each year.

I agree with each of the points above -- however, I would be surprised if Marriott didn't also have some form of on-going, permanent, search in II looking for Hilton Head summer weeks/or similar high demand week (and offering Ko Olina in exchange? they have enough of them?).

If structured properly, Marriott would get the HH/Plat+ property and give up something less scarce.

Time will tell....but they aren't leaving much on the table, they must have considered this.

Best,

Greg

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning...


If MVCD snags some HHI summer weeks from II using KOLINA or other trust inventory as bait then gives these unit to DC members for points, is this not a violation of the "renting" restriction on II exchanges.

MVCD would be renting/selling these units for currency, not "$$$ but points"

looking for anyone's thoughts on this logic...

 

[dioxide45]

good morning...


If MVCD snags some HHI summer weeks from II using KOLINA or other trust inventory as bait then gives these unit to DC members for points, is this not a violation of the "renting" restriction on II exchanges.

MVCD would be renting/selling these units for currency, not "$$$ but points"

looking for anyone's thoughts on this logic...

I am sure that Marriott is not a member in the same way everyone else is members. Once they control the inventory, they can probably do just about anything they want with it, Re-exchange or rent.

 

[windje2000]

I agree with each of the points above -- however, I would be surprised if Marriott didn't also have some form of on-going, permanent, search in II looking for Hilton Head summer weeks/or similar high demand week (and offering Ko Olina in exchange? they have enough of them?).

If structured properly, Marriott would get the HH/Plat+ property and give up something less scarce.

Time will tell....but they aren't leaving much on the table, they must have considered this.

Best,

Greg

Dclub may well be 'first among equals' in trading, but if the weeks trades they are making with II are not equal-in equal-out, then the legacies are screwed.

I don't think II would put up with that. Integrity (and the long term contracts) are their intangible assets. Their most formidable weapon is 'just say no.'

If they get replaced, it will be the canary in the coal mine.

I am sure that Marriott is not a member in the same way everyone else is members. Once they control the inventory, they can probably do just about anything they want with it, Re-exchange or rent.

No question about it. "Some pigs are more equal than others" - George Orwell.

As long as the program is administered fairly from all perspectives, points owners have every right to as much access to inventory as they paid for.

That will, of course, compete with my interests, as would the interests of every new owner having my trading power or better competing in any exchange company (including II) for a finite supply of inventory.

 

[GregT]

Dclub may well be 'first among equals' in trading, but if the weeks trades they are making with II are not equal-in equal-out, then the legacies are screwed.

I think in my example, a Ko Olina for Hilton Head may be veiwed by II as an equal trade (in whatever their trade power mechanism is?)

If scarcity determines trade power, and if Ko Olina 2BR's are scarce to II (because owners split them and deposit them) then a Ko Olina 2BR (traded by Marriott) may be very powerful in II's eyes? I also think Marriott knows the II trading power formula as well as anyone and will know what weeks to offer to be able to get the needed week from II?

I'm speculating of course, but I think just because Marriott has a load of inventory at a certain property won't affect that property's value to II (especially if Marriott is careful about how it makes its inventory available to II)?

Thoughts?

 

[windje2000]

I think in my example, a Ko Olina for Hilton Head may be veiwed by II as an equal trade (in whatever their trade power mechanism is?)

If scarcity determines trade power, and if Ko Olina 2BR's are scarce to II (because owners split them and deposit them) then a Ko Olina 2BR (traded by Marriott) may be very powerful in II's eyes? I also think Marriott knows the II trading power formula as well as anyone and will know what weeks to offer to be able to get the needed week from II?

I'm speculating of course, but I think just because Marriott has a load of inventory at a certain property won't affect that property's value to II (especially if Marriott is careful about how it makes its inventory available to II)?

Thoughts?

Trading power ("TP") as I understand it is calculated by a 'black box' with multiple inputs (view, size, age, week, etc.) and weights to those inputs that ultimately derives something equivalent to a score. All deposits get a score.

Since II states the 'request with the highest TP is first in line to get the desired week', it's axiomatic that supply and demand clearly is reflected. Just because Marriott owns a boat load doesn't affect its value/trading power.

If Marriott adds a boat load of inventory to II, it should make it easier to get a trade, all else staying the same. Whether or not adding supply materially changes the score at which supply and demand intersect depends on whether or not there are lots of high TP requests chasing that inventory.

EDITED TO ADD: Marriott may be able to make an educated guess about the TP formula, but they don't have the request (supply/demand) data.

 

[hotcoffee]

I think in my example, a Ko Olina for Hilton Head may be veiwed by II as an equal trade (in whatever their trade power mechanism is?)

If scarcity determines trade power, and if Ko Olina 2BR's are scarce to II (because owners split them and deposit them) then a Ko Olina 2BR (traded by Marriott) may be very powerful in II's eyes? I also think Marriott knows the II trading power formula as well as anyone and will know what weeks to offer to be able to get the needed week from II?

I'm speculating of course, but I think just because Marriott has a load of inventory at a certain property won't affect that property's value to II (especially if Marriott is careful about how it makes its inventory available to II)?

Thoughts?

Back at the beginning of the program, there were a lot of discussions about Marriott's ability to make II trades. Now, their having a boat load of Hawaii inventory for those trades, I am once again curious as to whether Marriott will bulk-deposit surplus Hawaii weeks or use them for II trades.

I am also curious about whether VOAs can dynamically scan available II weeks when we call them to elect points for an exchange. There might well be a request-first search going on in II that we would not be aware of that has a summer Hilton Head week trying to get a Hawaii week. Bingo. The VOA takes the HH week and gives the searcher a Ko Olina week. We would never know where she got the HH week from. That could be powerful for DC members.

 

[windje2000]

Back at the beginning of the program, there were a lot of discussions about Marriott's ability to make II trades. Now, their having a boat load of Hawaii inventory for those trades, I am once again curious as to whether Marriott will bulk-deposit surplus Hawaii weeks or use them for II trades.

I am also curious about whether VOAs can dynamically scan available II weeks when we call them to elect points for an exchange. There might well be a request-first search going on in II that we would not be aware of that has a summer Hilton Head week trying to get a Hawaii week. Bingo. The VOA takes the HH week and gives the searcher a Ko Olina week. We would never know where she got the HH week from. That could be powerful for DC members.

I don't think II would give Marriott quite that much access. If they did and it became public, II might have to give that same level of access to others.

I think what would happen is that DClub puts in a request-first search for HHI using Ko Olina, or maybe even a list of appropriate properties. II then makes the match with the other side of the trade.

Who knows, II's software may be sophisticated enough to identify and execute a three player trade [A-->B; B-->C; C-->A] or even more.

 

[hotcoffee]

I don't think II would give Marriott quite that much access. . . .

Maybe II would not, but remember the request-first search is a Marriott week to start with. Do they know that one of their weeks is being used for an II search? I don't know, but it is not as if they know about a Starwood resort involved in a search. (Come to think of it, Starwood is rumored to control what an owner can deposit, aren't they?)

. . . . Who knows, II's software may be sophisticated enough to identify and execute a three player trade [A-->B; B-->C; C-->A] or even more.

If they are all Marriotts perhaps so. But that would require the same level of knowledge as my original theory, would it not?

 

[GregT]

I think what would happen is that DClub puts in a request-first search for HHI using Ko Olina, or maybe even a list of appropriate properties. II then makes the match with the other side of the trade.

This is much better said than what I fumbled with in my post #65 -- and this is exactly what I think Marriott should (and will) do.

They should consider those highly desired weeks (MFC, HH, Waiohai) and put it request-first searches, and offer the (plentiful to Marriott) Trust weeks in exchange, like Ko Olina.

In this manner, if someone were to deposit a summer HH, Marriott is first in line with the request and has offered a high (enough) powered trader for it.

They need the inventory, so why not put in a request-first with the Ko Olina for the HH? This is a reason why I think it will be very tough for a traditional II trader -- even with a strong property -- to compete with Marriott for that rare II deposit since Marriott will be earlier in line.

All speculation, true, but it's in their best interest to have inventory.

Best,

Greg

 

[windje2000]

Maybe II would not, but remember the request-first search is a Marriott week to start with. Do they know that one of their weeks is being used for an II search? Only if II told them, which I doubt. II had no reason to tell them and Marriott never cared. That may have changed with DClub. It might be worth it to check II's privacy policy to see if that's addressed.

I don't know, but it is not as if they know about a Starwood resort involved in a search. (Come to think of it, Starwood is rumored to control what an owner can deposit, aren't they?) I don't know much about Starwood, but I believe that's correct.

Who knows, II's software may be sophisticated enough to identify and execute a three player trade [A-->B; B-->C; C-->A] or even more.

If they are all Marriotts perhaps so. But that would require the same level of knowledge as my original theory, would it not? Just speculation on my part, but II might well have the capability of identifying and executing a three player trade. Its doubtful that Marriott does. They don't need that capability with a points based system.

I am guessing VOA's see the entire Marriott corporate II trading account, but other than that, little more than we see.