Recent Hilton Buy Backs

[Redrosesix]

There are a ton of them (Search for ROFR and stand back) although many seem to have scrolled off due to the date. Here is one link to the University Study that proved ROFR does NOT favor sellers or higher prices.

Oh, I thought you meant threads on TUG or Dis.

BTW, I read through the link you posted. But that wouldn't prove that the seller has a disadvantage. Instead, it states that the holder of the ROFR is at a disadvantage -- in this case that would be HGVC. Its predictions re sellers is: "This allows the asset owner to present any third party with an ultimatum offer: Buy at the high price, or not at all. By increasing the bargaining power of the asset owner in this way, the right works to the disadvantage of the right holder." In the case of TS's, the TS owner is the asset owner.

So...I'm still thinking that if I buy resale, I will like ROFR if/when it comes times to sell.

 

[timeos2]

It's one shot for the seller & the buyers cat is out of the bag

I agree with your scenario... up to the point where the buyer just walks away from ever trying to purchase another deed at the same property (if they don't pass ROFR). I don't agree this is what all buyers are doing, if a person makes a bid on Marriott, or HGVC, or DVC... that person wants Marriott, or HGVC, or DVC. I would think that if they are attempting to buy a TS in the resale market, they have researched exactly what they wish to purchase.

I know if I wanted to buy DVC, I wouldn't just walk away and say "screw it with ROFR, I'm done!" Please, I have a little more patience than that! And I want DVC! I can either keep trying to land a low-ball contract, or I can up my bid a little bit to what is know will pass. Sounds pretty good for the seller to me.

Those buyers who might do what you are suggesting... IMHO are pure speculators who see some cheap TS and want to scoop it up just because it's cheap. I think it's better for the seller if those people walk away.

Also, I think you're attempt to make the seller a "victim" in this scenario is way off. The seller agreed to the sale--ROFR or not--so it is obviously a fair price for them or they would not have agreed to it! What if the ROFR passes... does the seller still "slink" off with his "few bucks" to pout? Well, maybe they shouldn't have agreed to sell it for that price in the first place then.

As the seller the ONE shot you have to find a willing buyer (never exactly beating a path to the timeshare sellers door but the "pool" is greatly reduced by the hassles - both perceived and real - of ROFR properties) and now the seller accepts the offer they have been waiting for. After making them (and the buyer) wait another 30-90 days the developer decides that, OK, we'll take it. The seller gets the exact low price the buyer offered - no second chance- and the buyer now KNOWS what the true value is. Are they going to RAISE that price to the NEXT seller (your week is gone, you're out of the game a loser) byt thousands of dollars? A few might go a few hundred or even a grand higher but much more? Why would they? They already know sellers are willing to sell much lower. If you know it can be bought for less you're going to offer more? In what bizzaro world?

The ROFR is a scam and believing it somehow will get you more for your week if you decide to sell is a pipe dream. Of course it's fun to think so until you actually go to find a buyer. Once you do and reality finally hits I doubt you will be willing to post but will in fact do the slink off with the check and curse the day ROFR was ever mentioned. Again the best policy is to simply refuse to buy any property that has a valid ROFR. Or simply bid lower every time until you get your "must have" week so when YOU sell you can actually recover the true value, not some imaginary number that the developers hope you'll think is real. Remember these are the same weasels who sell these weeks with a straight and serious face at well over 50% more than they know it's worth and 80-95% over what the market says they are worth when resold. Trusting them is a real threat to your long term happiness with your purchase. Minimize cost upfront and pay the exact same annual fees as those who paid 2-3-4 or many more times what you did by buying resale. Then have a good chance of getting your original purchase cost back and you'll be in the happy minority of timeshare buyers who know how to best work a rigged system.

 

[timeos2]

ROFR is NOT a good thing (unless you are the developer)

Oh, I thought you meant threads on TUG or Dis.

BTW, I read through the link you posted. But that wouldn't prove that the seller has a disadvantage. Instead, it states that the holder of the ROFR is at a disadvantage -- in this case that would be HGVC. Its predictions re sellers is: "This allows the asset owner to present any third party with an ultimatum offer: Buy at the high price, or not at all. By increasing the bargaining power of the asset owner in this way, the right works to the disadvantage of the right holder." In the case of TS's, the TS owner is the asset owner.

So...I'm still thinking that if I buy resale, I will like ROFR if/when it comes times to sell.

Unlike the example you cite the ROFR in timeshare requires the third party (buyer) to set the price only THEN does the developer swoop or pass. But either way there is no incentive (or even chance) for the buyer to raise the bid as they are skunked by the developer buy and the seller (who does NOT hold the ROFR - the Developer does) has to accept the lowball offer. He (the asset holder) does not hold the rights to have a bidding war (which could increase price) but rather has to find a buyer who are in short supply overall and may be further limited knowing that even a successful offer can be lost. When the day comes to sell if you own a ROFR you will NOT be singing the praises of ROFR.

 

[Redrosesix]

Unlike the example you cite the ROFR in timeshare requires the third party (buyer) to set the price only THEN does the developer swoop or pass. But either way there is no incentive (or even chance) for the buyer to raise the bid as they are skunked by the developer buy and the seller (who does NOT hold the ROFR - the Developer does) has to accept the lowball offer. He (the asset holder) does not hold the rights to have a bidding war (which could increase price) but rather has to find a buyer who are in short supply overall and may be further limited knowing that even a successful offer can be lost. When the day comes to sell if you own a ROFR you will NOT be singing the praises of ROFR.

I'll admit that I may be biased as I'm hoping that purchasing at HGVC is not just throwing away my money (as opposed to buying one of the TS's that is currently being sold for $1, and in which I'd probably be very happy to pay MF's as opposed to room rates)

But...I'm not as concerned about low-ball offers as I am of having no offers. So I guess the object of the game from the sellers' standpoint is to purchase something (resale, of course) that a future buyer would actually want to own at the market price.

But for the time being, this whole discussion has pretty much talked me out of HGVC. DVC for sure (if I own it longer than 10 years, I probably won't care what it's worth anymore) but the other TS's are seeming pretty scary right now.

 

[timeos2]

Purchase cost is only the start

But for the time being, this whole discussion has pretty much talked me out of HGVC. DVC for sure (if I own it longer than 10 years, I probably won't care what it's worth anymore) but the other TS's are seeming pretty scary right now.

The key is if it is a quality resort in an area you like to visit or it holds a good trade value as a week or in points what do you care if it sells for a dollar? That becomes your "investment" and shouldn't be hard to recover when you sell. The problem with all upfront costs (purchase cost) for timeshares are that they buy you nothing but the rights to use resort XX at YY or for ZZ points AND pay the fees until you sell. It is those fees that are the true cost of timeshare and history says resorts with brand names - thus paying overhead and more to that organization to keep the name - tend to have higher fees than independently operated/named resorts. With a little work you can find resorts equal or better than the "brands" that operate independently,are multi-affiliated with exchange systems and have lower (often MUCH lower) fees that make the ownership a great value. That is how our portfolio ended up shaking out (not really a grand plan but luck of discovering resale and buying only top times at resorts or in systems we really liked) and after our buying spree of over a decade ago we are very happy with what we own and have access to now for a very low annual cost. Those get us Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt, DVC and many others if we want them, we know we have great home resorts to use if we don't want to trade and most are in Points systems making it easy and inexpensive to stretch our 6 ownerships to 10+ weeks of use each year if desired. While we love the top brand names owning there never made sense financially when we can trade or rent for far less than the annual fees alone - forget the upfront purchase costs.

You may have accidentally realized the best way to maximize timeshare ownership isn't through paying the big prices of the name brands.

 

[JonathanIT]

But for the time being, this whole discussion has pretty much talked me out of HGVC.

That's really sad, because HGVC is a great TS to own. You don't know what you're missing!

 

[Redrosesix]

You may have accidentally realized the best way to maximize timeshare ownership isn't through paying the big prices of the name brands.

Yup, that's what I'm wondering

That's really sad, because HGVC is a great TS to own. You don't know what you're missing!

Well...I did say for the time being. I need to know I'm doing the right thing -- I would never have been the type to buy from a salesman on a TS tour (those kinds of people just hate people like me )

HGVC SW will still be there if I do decide to buy.

 

[Bikeguy]

I have been thinking about why would anyone broker would need tainted paperwork in the first place.

This scenario actually works without a broker involved as well, with perhaps extra money to the seller for agreeing to submit a higher ROFR letter to Hilton.

For example, a deal is made to buy a 7000 point Plat week for $4000. The seller is uneducated and happy to get $4000, however the buyer knows it will not pass ROFR. After the deal is agreed to, the buyer tells the seller that they will offer an extra $300 if the ROFR letter is higher than the actual price, explaining that Hilton most likely will buy it back otherwise.

Hence, the seller can add $300 to the sale price by agreeing to submit the higher valued letter.

While I recognize it is immoral and illegal to do this, the risk of getting caught is basically zero and I'll bet it's been done before, especially between relatives/friends.

Boy, what a way to establish a reputation with a first post.

 

[timeos2]

Enjoy them - just don't BUY them!

Well...I did say for the time being. I need to know I'm doing the right thing -- I would never have been the type to buy from a salesman on a TS tour (those kinds of people just hate people like me )

HGVC SW will still be there if I do decide to buy.

Unless you want to be at a HGVC every trip (unlikely) you can easily trade in (also to Marriott, DVC and the other "names") with a quality non-name ownership. You aren't giving up USING the name brands you are just avoiding the high costs of purchase and fees they tend to carry.

 

[Talent312]

But for the time being, this whole discussion has pretty much talked me out of HGVC.

Its rather silly to let one discussion on an esoteric topic, color your thinking about the HGVC system. What's been said here rarely amounts to a hill of beans for the average seller or buyer. Prices have held up comparatively well, with or without ROFR, becuz in style and quality, HGVC is more like an Acura TL, as compared to a Honda Civic (your average run-of-the-mill TS).

 

[PigsDad]

You aren't giving up USING the name brands you are just avoiding the high costs of purchase and fees they tend to carry.

But they are "giving up" the benefits of a flexible system like HGVC. If all you ever want to do is stay exactly a week and are flexible when and where you stay (not always getting your preferred choice), trading into a name brand will work (some of the time). But if you want 3-4 day weekends, 10-day extended stays, and the ability to all but guarantee that you will get to stay where you want, when you want -- owning a name brand is the only real option.

You just need to decide if the extra costs are worth the benefits.

Kurt

 

[timeos2]

To be flexible means wide choices beyond one system

But they are "giving up" the benefits of a flexible system like HGVC. If all you ever want to do is stay exactly a week and are flexible when and where you stay (not always getting your preferred choice), trading into a name brand will work (some of the time). But if you want 3-4 day weekends, 10-day extended stays, and the ability to all but guarantee that you will get to stay where you want, when you want -- owning a name brand is the only real option.

You just need to decide if the extra costs are worth the benefits.

Kurt

I'm all for flexible that why all my resorts can be or are based in a points system. But a few - my summer Cape Cod for example - are so valuable as weeks that converting to points, even the high value points they offer, doesn't make sense as once I give up the specific fixed week it would be VERY hard to impossible to obtain again. My Fl week (at a good resort) is float as nearly the whole year is desirable time and being limited to one week isn't a good choice. That resort is also in Diamond Club - very flexible and corporate access to II - weeks and Points access to RCI. Then there is my Wyndham which is pure points - go where I want when I want - flexible to the max. Finally there is my one dog - Westgate - which can be used in II (bit only as an individual week so that was dropped years ago as being of near zero value), RCI weeks - too risky and limited doing week for week trades - or RCI Points - my choice as again they create value where otherwise there is little in this case.

Add all of those up - 6 weeks total - and purchase cost barely exceeded 1 HGVC week and annual fees aren't 2 weeks of the average upscale HGVC. And I can get not only HGVC when I want but have the flexibility of also getting Marriott, Hyatt, DVC or any other resort in any of my points systems OR RCI /II weeks. I'm not limited to the HGVC system and its primary focus on Orlando/LV. Points and float resorts also offer the 3-4 day stays but I have found that to be far less desirable than I originally thought it would be. That overall package is true flexibility and value for the dollar spent IMO.

 

[PigsDad]

Points and float resorts also offer the 3-4 day stays but I have found that to be far less desirable than I originally thought it would be. That overall package is true flexibility and value for the dollar spent IMO.

To each their own, but I find the 3-4 day stays extremely useful. LV is one of my favorite places to visit -- but who wants to spend a full week at a time in LV? I just checked, and I could make a 3-night reservation right now for LV checking in December 30th -- New Year's Eve on the strip in Las Vegas. That's just one such example of flexibility that I value. And HGVC has very high trading power if you want to use your points in RCI (weeks or points).

I have owned my HGVC for less than 2 1/2 years (bought resale). In checking my online account, I have already completed 17 stays in that time period! Yes, 17 separate reservations / stays for a total of 61 nights. Two of those stays were for exchange weeks out of the HGVC system (one RCI and one SFX). If I broke that down to cost per night, I think that would be very competitive with a any other TS, even taking in the opportunity cost of the initial buy in.

That is the type of flexibility for which I was more than willing to spend a little extra. I simply could not have done what I have in the last two years outside of HGVC -- even with six "tiger trader" regular weeks.

Again -- to each their own. But count me as a very satisfied HGVC owner.

Kurt

 

[timeos2]

No need to buy - just enjoy

To each their own, but I find the 3-4 day stays extremely useful. LV is one of my favorite places to visit -- but who wants to spend a full week at a time in LV? I just checked, and I could make a 3-night reservation right now for LV checking in December 30th -- New Year's Eve on the strip in Las Vegas. That's just one such example of flexibility that I value. And HGVC has very high trading power if you want to use your points in RCI (weeks or points).

To each his own is the case for sure. We don't find much value in 3-4 day stays as the cost isn't just in lodging - although those 3-4 days with extra cleaning fees, etc may be at or very close to a 7 day stay - but the time and flight we have to use to get many places. If we drive its the time - why drive a day to stay 2 or 3? With flights its cost & time - a 10 hour flight for hundreds of dollars for 3-4 days? Not enjoyable or cost effective for us. After initially thinking a week in one place would be too much we have embraced the 7 day minimum stay for most trips and have even extended some to 10-14 days. We haven't found it at all necessary to buy into the Hiltons, Marriotts or other branded groups to use those very fine resorts and thus keep our costs way down. By the way we have found the Hiltons to be top notch - I'd even say better than Marriotts in some cases - and the points system much more flexible and desirable than Marriotts single resort / week system that depends on II for exchange. But despite being tempted we have never purchased either and yet have enjoyed the beautiful resorts when desired over the years. That is the best of timesharing for us.

 

[bosco0633]

everyones vacation and expectations are different, so so true. My wife and I work shifts, we get tons of 4 day weekends off and love to get away. We do small hotel trips here and there with the kids, and do Vegas atleast 2 times a year.

Now we will be doing Vegas 3 or 4 times a year. Cheap deals offered through HGVC, we live in Ontario, about 45min from the buffalo airport, which has incredible deals. We are going may 13th for 5 nights and got flights for 70.00 each way. So cheap how can you not go away.

I am very hyper and find anything longer than a week terrible. I struggle at all inclusive resorts because I find undwinding kills me. So strange I know, but I need working vacations, thats why we do Vegas its so busy, and we travel to Europe almost every year. I plan it all and drive so im go go go.
We do disney once a year with the kids as well and that is very busy.

I just hope as I get older, I can learn to unwind on vacation. Sitting around on a beach causes me to stress out, my wife hates me on an all inclusive. We went to the dominican republic last year and I thought I was going to have a heart attack, i just couldnt relax.

Anyways, I agree, smaller trips forsure, I plan on using my vegas HGVC TS for many stays, especially to go and see the UFC, which I am a big fan. I think the upfront costs are nothing for the enjoyment that we will get from it. I dont like cheap vacations, when I go, I do it up nice. Hell thats what it is all about, getting away from the every day!

 

[PigsDad]

although those 3-4 days with extra cleaning fees, etc may be at or very close to a 7 day stay

That is one nice feature of HGVC -- no extra cleaning fees for stays less than a week.

And I understand not wanting to travel a long distance for only a few days. A major reason that HGVC works so well for me is that Valdoro (Breckenridge, CO) is only a 2 hour drive for me. A large number of my stays have been there for ski weekends. I end up paying less to stay in a top-class ski resort than the Motel 6 along the interstate.

The fact that I don't have to plan out so far in advance compared to RCI trades is a great benefit for me as well. HGVC may not be for everyone, but it does have some very distinct advantages that you can't get with most other timeshares.

Kurt

 

[UWSurfer]

No worries, John gets to deal with Westgate...more power to him!

(ducking here and staying low) :ignore:

To be fair, I think there is quite a bit to what John says about saving the $$ and getting non-HGVC units to book HGVC and others. And he's been quite complimentary toward HGVC quality. I will say I'm enjoying my mix of both, HGVC, non-HGVC and RCI points...learning and using the various systems in a mix and match combination.

For example, while staying the week here in Orlando on I-drive in a 3 bdrm unit, I was able to book with RCI points the Ft. Lauderdale beach club for a night, close to where I was diving the next morning...making for a nice side trip and staying in a place with a great ocean view for motel 6 cash outlays.

I did a similar stay in December using HHonors and the Marriott rewards points I earned to wrangle lodgings for several nights in Ft. L and the keys. Next week I'm in Vegas, staying at the HGVC LV Hilton (where I own), but booked it with RCI points from our Summer Bay Vegas week.

It's nice to have options.

 

[Sandy VDH]

It's nice to have options.

I like options. I have in addition to my HGVC a Wyndham account, which has great flexibility and is a nice compliment to HGVC.

 

[Redrosesix]

So...I just saw an ad for a 4800 point TS at HGVC Tuscany (that's a platinum 1 bdrm, right?) for $2750

That won't pass ROFR, right?

Are there any more updates on HGVC ROFR's? BTW, it's been pretty quiet over on the Dis ROFR thread too -- but there aren't many people buying and posting their results either.

 

[Redrosesix]

So...I just saw an ad for a 4800 point TS at HGVC Tuscany (that's a platinum 1 bdrm, right?) for $2750

That won't pass ROFR, right?

Gone...already.

 

[alwysonvac]

That won't pass ROFR, right?

If you want it and the price is right for you, just make the offer.
Don't worry about ROFR. ROFR levels can change at any time. Just make sure all funds will be promptly returned if it doesn't pass ROFR.

 

[Redrosesix]

If you want it and the price is right for you, just make the offer.
Don't worry about ROFR. ROFR levels can change at any time. Just make sure all funds will be promptly returned if it doesn't pass ROFR.

thanks for the advice -- I might give it a shot some day, but I'll wait til I'm more familiar with the brokers (that "getting the funds returned" sounds sort of important)

 

[Seth Nock]

ROFR Data

I just had:
2 HGVC Las Vegas units 7000 points bought back for $19,300 (for the pair).
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points bought back for $11,000.
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points waived @ $10,650
HGVC LAs Vegas Hilton 5000 points waived @ $6,000
HGVC Sea World 7000 points waived @ $11,000
HGVC Sea World 7000 points bought back @ $11,000
HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $5,600
HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $5,500
2 HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $10,400
HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $5,200
HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $5,200
HGVC Hilton Hawaiian Village 9600 points waived @ $35,000

 

[Hawaii 5-0]

HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points bought back for $11,000.
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points waived @ $10,650

Do they just not have a stable idea of how much they are willing to pay or does their decision depend also on other factors than price?

 

[Talent312]

Originally Posted by Seth Nock:
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points bought back for $11,000.
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points waived @ $10,650

Do they just not have a stable idea of how much they are willing to pay or does their decision depend also on other factors than price?

It may be a timing issue. At the time of buy-back, they may have perceived a deficit in their inventory and could flip it quickly, while at the time of waiver, they didn't. Seth also once noted that sometimes, they'll deliberately kill a deal involving someone who recently toured.