Poll - Is TUG too negative?

[ace2000]

I just don't get the animosity. They're salespeople, doing an entry level job that's taught to them in a specific manner meant to generate sales. Unless they own the product, and many don't, they have absolutely no reason to understand the product to the extent that owners should. Heck, many owners don't understand the product even after years of owning it!

For what it's worth, I don't understand animosity towards tele-sales people or political robo-calls or overeager salespeople at car dealerships, either. Salespeople sell things, that's what they do. They don't develop the product or write the product warranties or research the related legislation or etc etc etc

Yes, but in this industry, they have chosen to sell a product and apply high pressure tactics to many people that cannot afford it (including many elderly). I'm not saying they deserve hatred and scorn, but lumping together with "other" salespeople as you have in your post, is pretty naive.

 

[timeos2]

I agree. But let me ask, at what point do we put the responsibility for a "bad" purchase on the person who makes it? Buyer Beware has to come into the equation somewhere, and the mandated rescission policies are in place for that very reason. Why do we put all the blame on the developers/salespeople when folks come here admitting that they just dumped a ton of money without doing due diligence, either before or directly after when they have the paperwork in their hands?

I'm not advocating that every person who comes here looking for help should be told, "too bad, so sad, you should have been more responsible" - not advocating such an insulting, dismissive attitude AT ALL! I just wish that we could take at least a little care to consider the perspective of the folks on the other side of the transaction as we do those on this side. Even if we can't say positive things about the developers/salespeople (and sometimes, those who buy from them,) do we have to always say negative things about them? Why not stick with the nuts and bolts, "this is what it is, this is how you can be helped," and not so much the, "those $*&#%#&^ took complete advantage of you!"

I have felt a bit of pity for those poor folks, especially those obviously new to it all and probably destined to never make a nickle at it, but they also had a choice NOT to represent an industry based on inflated prices and twisted if not outright untrue "facts" under high pressure and carefully scripted sales presentations that play on the naivety of uninformed buyers. Sure we may go in looking to get the $100+ in cash or gifts but we didn't create the model - they did! You can't paint every timeshare sales person as evil but there aren't many that aren't aware of just how badly they are misrepresenting the truth to buyers. And when you get to the level of the Corporate sponsors/owners there is no doubt they realize how sleazy the whole industry is and why resales represent such a great value cmpared to the outrageous prices of the retail process.

We enjoy and believe in timesharing but the retail / developer side needs a serious cleanup and concept change to be what it really should have been all along. Sadly it is deteriorating not improving in the past decade.

 

[channimal]

With regards to being brutally honest on the TS industry and the developers who employ teams of morals-deficient salespeople... I'd say TUG is as honest as it needs to be. It should be frank, stark and in your face to help people make an informed decision about their timeshare purchase.

Sometimes I cringe at posts in threads here of people who have been duped into buying at inflated developer prices and a few of the comments tend to be a "pile-on" of what a dumb decision versus a more empathetic response and suggestions on either rescission or how to make the best of a purchase.. but that's just me. DW says I'm a 6'2, 260lb teddy bear :hysterical:

 

[Quadmaniac]

I just don't get the animosity. They're salespeople, doing an entry level job that's taught to them in a specific manner meant to generate sales. Unless they own the product, and many don't, they have absolutely no reason to understand the product to the extent that owners should. Heck, many owners don't understand the product even after years of owning it!

For what it's worth, I don't understand animosity towards tele-sales people or political robo-calls or overeager salespeople at car dealerships, either. Salespeople sell things, that's what they do. They don't develop the product or write the product warranties or research the related legislation or etc etc etc

I don't think that there is anything wrong with being a salesperson BUT when they use heavy tactics to entice people to buy something they don't understand or can afford, I think that is very underhanded and taking advantage of people. If the the playing field was level, that is a completely different story but we all know that it is not and most people convinced to buy are at a disadvantage of not knowing all the facts. When it is that they lie to customers to get them to buy, promising them the ability to rent at a profit and the timeshare going up in value is just plain deceitful. I think this would describe the majority vs the minority of developer sales.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Timeshare salespeople have a job to do, and they do it with lies and half truths. It's a sleazy profession, but it's a way some people make their living, and for the more pushy salesmen, it's a great living.

Unfortunately, I don't think they have a conscience, or if they do have a conscience, they are not looking at the implications of the sale to the person who just bought the overpriced, over-hyped product.

I feel differently about Marriott and a few others because there is almost a decent intrinsic value, but even still, resale is devalued for the original buyer who wants to see it stay the same or go up in a few years. After all, it is real estate, and doesn't real estate mostly go up in value? It's sold as real estate and inferred that it will go up in value.

 

[Beefnot]

Timeshare salespeople is no more sleazy than auto salespeople and attorneys. They all lie for a living. They all do. Hey, a defense attorney's job is to get his client off by creating reasonable doubt even if he believes his client is guilty (and perhaps he deliberately will not ask too many questions so that he can sleep at night). Perhaps the degree of lying, half-truths, manipulation, and intellectual dishonesty may vary, but it's there plain as day.

Timeshares are "total ripoffs" only insofar as what the measuring stick is. Measured against resale purchases, absolutely. Against equivalent class hotel accommodations over a 25 to 40 year period, perhaps not. There are ways to rationalize the degree of sleaziness, just as one would dealer salespeople or lawyers.

 

[Passepartout]

Timeshare salespeople is no more sleazy than auto salespeople and attorneys.....<snip>......There are ways to rationalize the degree of sleaziness, just as one would dealer salespeople or lawyers.

I can't disagree more. Even the most sleazy car salesman provides a vehicle worth SOMETHING. A TS is worth ZERO or nearly so in a financial way the day after the purchase is completed. And in defense of my DW, who provides guidance for disabled people to get disability INSURANCE funds, that the person has paid the premium for. These are the most needy people you can imagine. She does not work on a contingency, her fee comes from the insurance on top of what the claimant gets.

Please beware of the width of the brush you paint people with. Broad strokes splatter on innocent victims.

Jim

 

[Beefnot]

I can't disagree more. Even the most sleazy car salesman provides a vehicle worth SOMETHING. A TS is worth ZERO or nearly so in a financial way the day after the purchase is completed. And in defense of my DW, who provides guidance for disabled people to get disability INSURANCE funds, that the person has paid the premium for. These are the most needy people you can imagine. She does not work on a contingency, her fee comes from the insurance on top of what the claimant gets.

Please beware of the width of the brush you paint people with. Broad strokes splatter on innocent victims.

Jim

With respect to width of the brush, so are all timeshare salespeople sleazy or not? If yes, then your measuring stick is flawed. You are basing it on the relative resale value of the property. Okay, so how about Disney salespeople? There is significant resale value in those properties resale. Or is the degree of sleaziness dependent on the resale value of the property? So Jaguar salespeople are lying sacks of crap while Toyota salespeople are the gold standard in sales?

I'm not speaking about anyone's specific relative or friend or whoever, so don't want to get personal. But all many attorneys do lie or manipulate or mislead for a living. It's not their job to be truthful, it's their job to spin or play up/down facts and perception to their advantage, and let the system decide. But don't want to turn it into a debate about lawyers. Was simply calling out that there are other professions that have the same or similar degree of murky behavior.

 

[vacationhopeful]

TUG is a reference source on using this product called timeshares. Just like TV sets or cars, there are many different models with different functions and operating costs. Is the Blue Book for car values HATED by the car manufacturers? NO! Does Consumer Reports get blasted for rating a TV set as junk with high repair bills? NO!

Is TUG fostering a environment for picking and pricing of the timeshare product -- like Consumer Reports or the Blue Book for their field of products... YES.

The Timeshare "Professional" is tilting at windmills - the internet has changed their business model - either change or your career will not pay the bills in the future.

 

[geekette]

The FaceBook complainer simply doesn't have the cojones to whine directly on TUG. He feels that FB is an 'independent' site where he doesn't have to register, and therefore has a feeling of a certain amount of anonymity. Like a CB 'flamer' of the past.

What it REALLY shows is that he's a coward who isn't strong enough in his convictions to defend them in open forum.

Do not lose a moment's sleep over this clown.

Jim

I don't do FB but my understanding is that You are You, no moniker or pet name or whatnot. Am I wrong? Seems to me that geekette here is far less anonymous than Mary Kay Smith there.

 

[geekette]

I agree. But let me ask, at what point do we put the responsibility for a "bad" purchase on the person who makes it? Buyer Beware has to come into the equation somewhere, and the mandated rescission policies are in place for that very reason. Why do we put all the blame on the developers/salespeople when folks come here admitting that they just dumped a ton of money without doing due diligence, either before or directly after when they have the paperwork in their hands?

I'm not advocating that every person who comes here looking for help should be told, "too bad, so sad, you should have been more responsible" - not advocating such an insulting, dismissive attitude AT ALL! I just wish that we could take at least a little care to consider the perspective of the folks on the other side of the transaction as we do those on this side. Even if we can't say positive things about the developers/salespeople (and sometimes, those who buy from them,) do we have to always say negative things about them? Why not stick with the nuts and bolts, "this is what it is, this is how you can be helped," and not so much the, "those $*&#%#&^ took complete advantage of you!"

I lose respect very quickly for those that lie or resort to other tricks to sell me. It's not ethical and traps decent people. Further, the buy now or never is completely false.

Sure, too bad people don't know that's crap, but they don't know that's crap and rely on what they were told. Sure, buyer beware, and around here, Buyer Beware Of TS Salesfolks.

It gets mighty hard to stomp out a stereotype when too many keep on doing the things that created it to start with.

 

[pedro47]

Why do t/s sale personnel pray on senior citizens.

Myth: A t/s saleperson would tell a senior citizen how much their time share is worth on the open market ($10,000 - $20,000).

But the true is you can not give your time share away for free many times.

I just wish some of the developer's would take back their timeshare units after the owner had paid off the timeshare, without incurring any new costs.

Tug's tell timeshare owners the trurth about buying from a developer.

This is my opinion only.

 

[Carol C]

Has anyone considered that maybe t/s salespeople get more aggressive, even bitter, because so many people attend sales presentations ONLY for the freebies and some very insensitive types might even make a mockery of the operation and/or salesperson whilst sitting at their table? Maybe "the game" as some TUGgers call it isn't worth it if the end result is an elderly or naive person gets caught by lies thrown out there by jaded and bitter salespeople. Perhaps greed begets greed? Imagine a world where folks on vacation ONLY attend a sales presentation if they truly have serious interest in the product...not just for freebie gifts.

 

[Passepartout]

Imagine a world where folks on vacation ONLY attend a sales presentation if they truly have serious interest in the product...not just for freebie gifts.

That isn't the model the developers have chosen- though I'm certain they would love it.

The reality is, NO ONE goes on vacation to buy a timeshare. NO ONE.

 

[SueDonJ]

I need to shop where you people shop because for sure when I walk into Fresh Market they don't tell me that my money will go further at Stop&Shop, at Jordan's Furniture they don't tell me that my money will go further at Bob's, at Macy's they don't tell me that my money will go further at Marshall's etc etc etc ... Honestly, it doesn't make any sense to me that salespeople are expected to let buyers know where they can get the same things cheaper. It's my job as the consumer to learn what I need to know in order to make my money go as far as it can!

Again, not to put the complete blame on the buyer, but it's not a timeshare salesperson's job to save people from themselves!

I have very limited experience with timeshare salespeople - the one and only whom I've dealt with has been honest about the product, despite selling it in terms that obviously put it in the best possible light. I wasn't ever told and it wasn't ever inferred that the product would be a good financial investment. In fact, her presentation and the checklist we had to initial and sign made it very clear that timeshares are NOT financial investments. So admittedly, my perspective is skewed. But that's not to say that I don't believe that others have experienced sales experiences that were horror shows - of course those happen!

IMO the internet has worked remarkably well to get the word out that timeshare ownership is a legitimate vacation lifestyle despite its inherent risks. And like I said, TUG is the best resource I know to both educate the world about timeshares and help owners make the most of what they own. TUG can also be used to further consumer protections for owners, such as what's happening in Florida with timeshare scammers being identified and charged. I love Brian's idea of extended rescission periods - his reasoning that you don't even use the product until a year after it's bought makes sense. Maybe his words on TUG will spark a conversation among folks who are in a position to do something about it.

But I still think that the prevailing broadbrush TUG attitude of Timeshare-Salespeople-Are-Bad-And-Developer-Buyers-Are-Suckers fosters a negative vibe here, and have to agree with the guy on FB who looks at TUG from that perspective. Just look at the irony in this thread - Brian started a poll asking if TUG is a negative place and as soon as I said that it is from a certain perspective, everybody started trashing everyone who looks at TUG from that perspective! To some extent we're proving the FB guy's point, aren't we?

 

[SueDonJ]

That isn't the model the developers have chosen- though I'm certain they would love it.

The reality is, NO ONE goes on vacation to buy a timeshare. NO ONE.

Not true.

 

[timeos2]

Has anyone considered that maybe t/s salespeople get more aggressive, even bitter, because so many people attend sales presentations ONLY for the freebies and some very insensitive types might even make a mockery of the operation and/or salesperson whilst sitting at their table? Maybe "the game" as some TUGgers call it isn't worth it if the end result is an elderly or naive person gets caught by lies thrown out there by jaded and bitter salespeople. Perhaps greed begets greed? Imagine a world where folks on vacation ONLY attend a sales presentation if they truly have serious interest in the product...not just for freebie gifts.

It would be great but which side of the equation is setting the trap? Is it the vacationer checking in to their accommodations and enjoying a week of relaxation or the Developers / Sales Weasels plotting the best way to entice them into the "update" knowing they want to pressure them to buy something they are likely unfamiliar with, have no intention of buying or owning and will be open to "free gifts" or cash when it's presented as a virtually no risk 90 minutes of their time with absolutely no obligation?

Sorry but the pity meter fails to register on the Weasel side, in fact it tends to go into the red, while even if the marks are familiar with timeshare tricks and sales tactics the meter still warrant a good amount of green scale simply because they are tempted with gifts that are meant to lure them in. It is up to the Developers to change the model as the guests never had a say in the first place. TUG is just one of the ways a consumer has even a small chance to level the playing field. It makes the retail sales talk negative for certain but that just reflects the truth of what is going on. It is merely the messenger, not the cause.

 

[Passepartout]

So admittedly, my perspective is skewed.

Agreed. If all you've experienced is one salesperson at Marriott, you haven't partaken of the majority of TS presentations.

Walk a mile in the majority's moccasins. You'll see.

 

[easyrider]

TUG is the Ralph Nadar of the timeshare industry, imo. If there is a way to be positive about any product that depreciates as fast as a timeshare, the people at TUG are.

As far as TS sales staff go, Im not sure why anyone would group them all together. Most are good people that are selling a product that does have fundamental value.

The top 20% of this group wouldn't complain about TUG or any other website that causes them to loose a sale but would use this experience as a learning tool. That might be why people that go to these presentations get ticked as a good sales person is going to explore ways to get your attention and see what makes you tic. These people don't see the lack of a sale as a failure but rather an investment in their sales process.

Only a weak salesperson needs to lie to sell a product, imo.


Bill

 

[vacationhopeful]

Some/MANY developers want you to met with them during your first morning - to lessen the internet time for your to research or even think, SHOULD I spend thousands of dollars on this? And by the time the majority of travellers have unpacked & washed clothes or mowed the grass or brought the fresh food for the refrigerator at home, the RESCIND PERIOD has lapsed!

And if they can't get you the first morning, the second morning is almost as good.

Now, if they could just close the pool everyday but Friday and Saturday (the check in days) ... their world would be perfect. :ignore:

 

[SueDonJ]

Agreed. If all you've experienced is one salesperson at Marriott, you haven't partaken of the majority of TS presentations.

Walk a mile in the majority's moccasins. You'll see.

"Walk a mile?" Couldn't that be said to anyone taking part in this thread, that different perspectives influence thought processes? That's my point, that the FB guy's perspective is different from that of most TUGgers, thus his opinion that TUG is a negative place is valid for him and others who share his perspective.

 

[Passepartout]

"Walk a mile?" Couldn't that be said to anyone taking part in this thread, that different perspectives influence thought processes? That's my point, that the FB guy's perspective is different from that of most TUGgers, thus his opinion that TUG is a negative place is valid for him and others who share his perspective.

Oh, sure. Different strokes and all that. Differing opinions are what makes the world an interesting place. That the FB guy feels that we (TUGgers) don't share his opinion, and we are 'negative' towards him isn't the slightest bit curious.

If Brian hadn't initiated this poll, I'd have never been aware of him or his views. Not that his views surprise me, and he shouldn't be all that surprised that by a HUGE majority, (approximately 97% to 3%) TUGgers don't share his opinions. Or give a great big rat's patootie.

 

[richardm]

This isn't the case....

I've spent time in a few front line sale offices, and the sales people are usually not the least bit concerned about the gifting. They understand that the gift is the hook used by the OPC's to bring people to the plate.

Generally, nobody walks into a tour with the intention of buying. Every tour is a designed process to try and discover what psychological buttons can be pushed to create an emotional purchase.

The only real times you'll hear a competent timeshare salesperson complain is when they are forced to take an unqualified tour, which means that the prospect doesn't fit into a category for a likely buyer. They don't want a single man or a single woman. They want a couple, and preferably married. There are also normally income requirements, which have a direct relationship with the sale price of the product. When the prospect doesn't meet these criteria, the salesperson will normally ask that they be classified as an NQ (not qualified) which does not count against their closing percentage and often allows them to push through quickly to grab another prospect.

The developers place an incredible amount of pressure on these individuals to perform, and as such it is rare to find a sales person who has worked for a single developer for a complete year. (Again- the notable exception to this is Disney Vacation Club where cast members may be employed for year after year).

Most work a few months, and when their numbers fall below the quota they are fired and simply move on to the next sales line that is hiring. It makes no sense, but I've known several sales people that would simply back back and forth between three or four developers in Orlando- returning to the same line where they are fired a year or two prior for another tour of duty.

It's a brutal and aggressive environment, but one that normally pays very very well for what amounts to a few hours of work each week. The individuals who can't work in that environment often migrate to telesales- where it is less combative.

Has anyone considered that maybe t/s salespeople get more aggressive, even bitter, because so many people attend sales presentations ONLY for the freebies and some very insensitive types might even make a mockery of the operation and/or salesperson whilst sitting at their table? Maybe "the game" as some TUGgers call it isn't worth it if the end result is an elderly or naive person gets caught by lies thrown out there by jaded and bitter salespeople. Perhaps greed begets greed? Imagine a world where folks on vacation ONLY attend a sales presentation if they truly have serious interest in the product...not just for freebie gifts.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Richard, I agree with you. We stopped going to presentations because we feel it's a waste of our time and the salesman's time. It's still a way to make a living, and I feel it's wasting his/her time talking to us. Nonetheless, I have told the people on the phone who call day after day: "I know timeshare resales very well. I don't want whatever you are selling for an inflated price." But they push any way, and if we give in and waste someone's time, and that someone makes a comment about it, I am quick to say, "I stopped the nagging from the person on the phone, who called me DAILY."

They can get in my face all they want (and this has happened), but I gave in to the pressure and increasing incentives. Marriott stopped calling us because I did finally go on one presentation a few years ago. At first it was $80, then $100, then $125. How could I resist? It was lies, lies and more lies.

But these folks know what resale is, and they know the vast price difference between their prices and resale prices. So lying is what they do.

 

[thegeers]

LOVE me some TUG

I love tug,

I am a former owner (never plan on owning again)
I have found great rental properties here for less than the maintenance fee I was paying for my own unit.
I keep dishing out the $30 every 3 years to keep this group around.
If I ever did buy one again, I would NEVER buy from the developer.