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Poipu Point - Walk away from ownership?

T_R_Oglodyte

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Corporate law requires .....

You've marched off on a wonderful tangent here, Steve. Going back, the comment is that there is black market in firms selling lists of owners names to scam firms doing telemarketing fraud. I pointed out that the prosecutors handling the upfront fee scams have alleged that such a market exists, and that the contact information appears to have been purloined from resorts and timeshare companies. I guess I gave you too much credit, I apologize. I thought you would realize that in a discussion of telemarketing fraud what gives a contact list value is telephone numbers, as it's pretty difficult to telemarket a list of owners when all you have is name and address.

I'm not at all arguing that the timeshare companies are properly withholding owner names and addresses. What I am saying is that I would expect they would withhold phone numbers. And phone numbers is where the black market exists.
 

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Why do you hate on Diamond?

I get that people are upset about the large assessment at the Point at Poipu. Admittedly I'm new to the timeshare world and no expert, but I don't see how anyone can blame Diamond. Here's how I understand things went down.

  • Somebody, Sunterra I think but definitely not Diamond, built the resort. It is poor design and construction that seems to be the root cause of the water intrusion problems.
  • Diamond was voted in by the HOA as the new management company. I keep reading "Diamond bought the point" but that's not possible as it is the deed holders who own the resort. Diamond may have purchased a number of deeds but they could not have "bought the resort."
  • Diamond discovered the water intrusion problem.
  • Diamond investigated both insurance claims and legal action but determined neither would recover significant money.
  • Diamond got bids for the repair work.
  • A winning bid was selected. It's not clear by whom but since the HOA will be on the hook for the bill they must have had at least a veto right.
  • The HOA, not Diamond, made a special assessment.
  • Diamond billed the owners for their share of the assessment.


I’m not sure what Diamond was supposed to do differently.

  • You could certainly argue Diamond should have investigated more thoroughly and found the problem prior to buying any deeds they own. However, that would not have made the problem go away. It only would have left the owners with the problem and no Diamond deep pockets, which are covering a significant amount of the cost. Diamond is on the hook for the special assessment just like other owners. If anyone should be upset about this it is the Diamond Hawaii trust owners that have no desire to use the Point. They’re on the hook for a share of this assessment on a resort they don’t even use.
  • Was Diamond supposed to pay for repairs that are the responsibility of the owners? That is clearly not a responsibility of any management company. Owners are responsible for the cost of maintenance and repair on any piece of real estate. The deed holders are the owners.
  • Was Diamond supposed to ignore the problem or make it magically go away?
  • Why isn’t anyone addressing their anger at the board for making/approving the decision to essentially re-build the resort and push a large special assessment on the owners.
  • Why isn’t anyone addressing their anger at the owners who let Diamond become the management company and take over their board? Hell, Diamond only owns 10% of the deeds. If just 2 in 10 deed owners were active Diamond would have zero power.
  • Why isn’t anyone addressing their anger at the idiots who designed and built a flawed structure?
 

weisberg

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Like 46 of the 50 states, Hawaii has a statute of repose for construction defects. Statutes of repose bar strictly bar suits for defects in construction after a set period of years from completion of construction (not from discovery). Hawaii statute of repose is for ten years. Since the project was completed in 1993 they are well past the stage at which a cost recovery could be taken against the builder.

There is a question that has not been answered as to potential product liability against the manufacturer of the cladding materials, since product liability is subject to statute of limitations and not statute of repose. That would depend on whether the manufacturer of the materials marketed and represented the materials as suitable for the use to which they were put.

Does Hawaii Law require inspections on new developement? If the answer is yes, the question is not about the builers responibilty. It is about the State of Hawaii 's resonsibility to inspect new construction to assure it's safety as well as it's building to suit the environment. When permits are given, I am sure that there are certain codes that have a criteria to be met. My question is were the proper inspections made? If they were, and if all was built to code. How can the insurance company dispute these facts.

Joyce Weisberg
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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Does Hawaii Law require inspections on new developement? If the answer is yes, the question is not about the builers responibilty. It is about the State of Hawaii 's resonsibility to inspect new construction to assure it's safety as well as it's building to suit the environment. When permits are given, I am sure that there are certain codes that have a criteria to be met. My question is were the proper inspections made? If they were, and if all was built to code. How can the insurance company dispute these facts.

Joyce Weisberg

Now you've got me totally confused as to what you're thinking of.

What type of insurance are you talking about and whose policy is it? The resorts for flood insurance or Property damage? Professional liabilty for whomever did the inspection? County government liability for faulty inspection??????
 

weisberg

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Now you've got me totally confused as to what you're thinking of.

What type of insurance are you talking about and whose policy is it? The resorts for flood insurance or Property damage? Professional liabilty for whomever did the inspection? County government liability for faulty inspection??????

You appear to be very intelligent. My thoughts are very simple and are made with common sense. If inspections were required and all criteria was met. How can the insurance company deny the claim due to faulty material/poor construction. My other question was, does the state of Hawaii require inspections for safety and durability to withstand the environment before a project is completed. I know the state of Florida does.
As I said earlier in one of my posts. That the large purchase DRI made should have been inspected by a structural engineer before they bought it. At this time you said it was known that there was a problem. Just maybe they had a vision of a new resort down the road. Now all of a sudden it our problem and DRI gets a new resort. I don't think so.

Joyce Weisberg
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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You appear to be very intelligent. My thoughts are very simple and are made with common sense. If inspections were required and all criteria was met. How can the insurance company deny the claim due to faulty material/poor construction.
Because the insurance policy is a casualty policy. Faulty materials/construction is not a casualty. Trying to claim for construction defect/faulty workmanship on a casualty policy is like trying to submit an auto insurance claim to your health insurer.

The way that construction liability/defect insurance is handled is that the contractor provides a certificate of liability insurance coverage to the property owner that names the property owner as an additional insured. That essentially attaches the owner to builder's liability policy. Now that policy, of course, is not going to provide coverage in situations when the builder is not liable. Which means that if the claim falls outside the statute of repose, there is no coverage because there is no builder liability. If an owner does not want coverage to end after the statute of repose, that would have to be negotiated up front and would represent an additonal - and hefty - insurance premium.
My other question was, does the state of Hawaii require inspections for safety and durability to withstand the environment before a project is completed. I know the state of Florida does.
I doubt it. And I seriously doubt that Florida does either. I'm sure that Hawaii, like Florida, inspects for compliance with building code.

As I said earlier in one of my posts. That the large purchase DRI made should have been inspected by a structural engineer before they bought it. At this time you said it was known that there was a problem. Just maybe they had a vision of a new resort down the road. Now all of a sudden it our problem and DRI gets a new resort. I don't think so.

Joyce Weisberg
I would imagine that at the time they purchased the resort they had a review done by knowledgeable and skilled people. For a project of this type that may or may not be a structural engineer - a three to four story wooden structure is often within the purview of a civil engineer or architect who does not have a specialized structural pedigree. If they have the expertise in-house it might not even be done externally.

Let's assume they brought in an outside consultant to do the assessment. The general standard of care that applies is what is customary and normal practice in the locale in which the work was done and at the time the services were performed. That's the same standard of care, for example, that applies when you go to see a your personal physician. Though I am a registered civil engineer, I don't practice in the area of building inspection, so I don't know what would be expected in this circumstance. But I do know that when I have bought and sold my houses in my life, ordinary inspection did not include ripping open the walls behind the siding or drywall to verify that there wasn't hidden damage.

Or course this is not a house, but a multi-million dollar condo project and a greater degree of upfront inspection would likely be customary. Perhaps the ordinary standard of care in such projects does dictate destructive inspection techniques. I suspect, though, that when doing a pre-acquisition assessment of a fifteen year old wood-frame building, constructed to code and not showing visible evidence of distress, it would be rare to start stripping the exterior off of two or three buildings so that one could inspect the condition of the studs, straps, and connectors behind the wall unless there were specific reason to suspect there was a situation that required that degree of intrusive activity.

Now was there reason to suspect a problem at the time DRI got involved at the site? I don't know that. But since I already owned at the site before DRI got involved, that really doesn't make any difference. Because DRI didn't make the problem. If they had found the problem and walked away from the deal because of the problem, the owners of the resort would still be faced with this situation, wouldn't they?

Bear in mind that the resort was almost entirely sold out before DRI came on the scene.
 
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timeos2

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We are also thinking of walking away or selling cheaply. Agree water assessment is outrageous. Have contacted a local attorney in California and it is suggested that we timeshare owners unite and get attorney in Kauai. Possible letter to Attorney General about conflict of interest due to the fact that memebers of the Assoc of Apt Owners of Poipu Beach are employees of Diamond Resorts. I have asked for a copy of the insurance denial letter but was told it is not publicly available. I am putting my request in writing along with a copy of the building inspections that determined the water intrusion issue and a copy of the inspection done when Diamond Resorts purchased from Sunterra in 2005. I am afraid this is a money scam because Diamond Resorts is in an economical bind and see's this as a way to recoup the money they need to do upkeep on property that they have neglected to take care of since 2005.

Just "walking away" isn't really a choice unless you don't care if your credit is damaged and you are willing to be subjected to heavy collection efforts & more. You pay or you find a new owner willing to pay but as a deeded owner of the property you are on the hook for the costs until you are no longer the owner of that deed.
 

timeos2

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''Privacy'' is ALWAYS a phony reason, and is a cover for their real reason, which is CONTROL. Corporate laws in most states REQUIRE them to provide these lists to members.

My HOA provided these lists to members already on gummed labels for the cost of the label stock if any of them wanted the lists, but also required a signed form that they would use them only in compliance with state law (i.e. not for business soliciations, only for communication with other members on HOA issues, and not transfer them to third parties). We were not afraid of members wanting to discuss HOA matters with others. An abusive management company / developer, well, they may have reason to be afraid of such communications.

I realize the importance of obtaining an owners list or some method of contact with other owners by dissenting owners BUT in all likelihood the only way they are going to get it is with a court battle and they will need money/owner support to launch that. Plus the legal wheels grind slowly and it would likely be months or even years to get it - by then the work will be well underway and the bills due.

It needs to be pursued but isn't a short term answer to trying to derail the current Special Assessment. And it may not be the long term answer either.
 

weisberg

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Because the insurance policy is a casualty policy. Faulty materials/construction is not a casualty. Trying to claim for construction defect/faulty workmanship on a casualty policy is like trying to submit an auto insurance claim to your health insurer.

Thanks Steve, I think that respectfully we can agree to disagree. They are constantly doing wall repairs and minor renovations. I would think at some point the wood was exposed prior to DRI's purchase. As I stated in my private reply to you about the voting for the HOA. I can't get past the mega mistrust for both.
Respectfully,
Joyce Weisberg
 
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timeos2

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I get that people are upset about the large assessment at the Point at Poipu. Admittedly I'm new to the timeshare world and no expert, but I don't see how anyone can blame Diamond. Here's how I understand things went down.
  • Somebody, Sunterra I think but definitely not Diamond, built the resort. It is poor design and construction that seems to be the root cause of the water intrusion problems.
  • Diamond was voted in by the HOA as the new management company. I keep reading "Diamond bought the point" but that's not possible as it is the deed holders who own the resort. Diamond may have purchased a number of deeds but they could not have "bought the resort."
  • Diamond discovered the water intrusion problem.
  • Diamond investigated both insurance claims and legal action but determined neither would recover significant money.
  • Diamond got bids for the repair work.
  • A winning bid was selected. It's not clear by whom but since the HOA will be on the hook for the bill they must have had at least a veto right.
  • The HOA, not Diamond, made a special assessment.
  • Diamond billed the owners for their share of the assessment.

I’m not sure what Diamond was supposed to do differently.
  • You could certainly argue Diamond should have investigated more thoroughly and found the problem prior to buying any deeds they own. However, that would not have made the problem go away. It only would have left the owners with the problem and no Diamond deep pockets, which are covering a significant amount of the cost. Diamond is on the hook for the special assessment just like other owners. If anyone should be upset about this it is the Diamond Hawaii trust owners that have no desire to use the Point. They’re on the hook for a share of this assessment on a resort they don’t even use.
  • Was Diamond supposed to pay for repairs that are the responsibility of the owners? That is clearly not a responsibility of any management company. Owners are responsible for the cost of maintenance and repair on any piece of real estate. The deed holders are the owners.
  • Was Diamond supposed to ignore the problem or make it magically go away?
  • Why isn’t anyone addressing their anger at the board for making/approving the decision to essentially re-build the resort and push a large special assessment on the owners.
  • Why isn’t anyone addressing their anger at the owners who let Diamond become the management company and take over their board? Hell, Diamond only owns 10% of the deeds. If just 2 in 10 deed owners were active Diamond would have zero power.
  • Why isn’t anyone addressing their anger at the idiots who designed and built a flawed structure?

Great post! Very well stated. Hopefully cooler heads will come to realize the "enemy" is not Diamond (a player but basically a messenger) but shoddy original construction.

While that is the real villain those groups (builders, contractors, designers, etc) from 20 years ago are long long gone. Just like any faulty construction that someone owns it is up to them to tear it down or correct it after trying, as apparently the HOA has, to find anyone who can be asked/sued to cover the costs. In this case, as in most big constructions problems, the true culprits are no more and cannot be made to pay.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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Because the insurance policy is a casualty policy. Faulty materials/construction is not a casualty. Trying to claim for construction defect/faulty workmanship on a casualty policy is like trying to submit an auto insurance claim to your health insurer.

Thanks Steve, I think that respectfully we can agree to disagree. They are constantly doing wall repairs and minor renovations. I would think at some point the wood was exposed prior to DRI's purchase. As I stated in my private reply to you about the voting for the HOA. I can't get past the mega mistrust for both.
Respectfully,
Joyce Weisberg

But that doesn't change the fact that you can't get coverage under an insurance policy for something that isn't covered under the policy.
 
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lv_maui

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Sorry John

John, your posts are normally spot on, but I disagree with your endorsement of this post because "Craigrow" has serious errors in his statement.

* Sunterra did not build the resort. It was someone else and it was a failed condo project.

* Diamond was NOT voted in as the new management company
Diamond took over management from Sunterra's mgmt company. DRI has been protecting their Board majority ever since. It is very important to understand that no deeded owners vote them in. NOT AT ALL. I think this is the biggest error in the post.

* Diamond did not discover the water instrusion problem. It has been a problem for many years. It may be accurate that they discovered the extent.

* The HOA who has 2 employees on the Board, the mother of Linda Riddle and 2 non DRI owners voted in the Special Assessment. DRI voted in the SA. The HOA is controled by the HOA

BUT, I CONCUR THAT DIAMOND IS NOT TOTALLY AT FAULT IN THIS MATTER. I feel that the way they handled it with a TOTAL lack of transparency is really the root of all the anger. I would have had much more communication to all owners in newsletters and voting polls to guage what the owners wanted to do with this problem. At least, people would have felt as if they were involved.

But again, conspiracy theories exist that this may be a way for DRI to acquire defaulted inventory from the HOA at a bargain price. Its pretty easy to figure out how to do it at a price of say $500 a week for 21.9 units. Again, only a theory and not factual and only an opinion of mine. I can get a bit creative with these matters from my background.

Great post! Very well stated. Hopefully cooler heads will come to realize the "enemy" is not Diamond (a player but basically a messenger) but shoddy original construction.

While that is the real villain those groups (builders, contractors, designers, etc) from 20 years ago are long long gone. Just like any faulty construction that someone owns it is up to them to tear it down or correct it after trying, as apparently the HOA has, to find anyone who can be asked/sued to cover the costs. In this case, as in most big constructions problems, the true culprits are no more and cannot be made to pay.
 

timeos2

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Does Hawaii Law require inspections on new developement? If the answer is yes, the question is not about the builers responibilty. It is about the State of Hawaii 's resonsibility to inspect new construction to assure it's safety as well as it's building to suit the environment. When permits are given, I am sure that there are certain codes that have a criteria to be met. My question is were the proper inspections made? If they were, and if all was built to code. How can the insurance company dispute these facts.

Joyce Weisberg

When inspected - 20+ years ago during construction - it most likely looked fine. Then, much like any construction, a bad component here, a missed chalking there, an under-performing product deteriorates over time - none of which any insurance is going to cover anymore than a perfectly good roof, inspected and installed, 20 years ago may no longer be 100% today.

The problem is real. Looking to blame someone from years ago may feel good but it won't fix it today or make it any cheaper.
 

timeos2

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You appear to be very intelligent. My thoughts are very simple and are made with common sense. If inspections were required and all criteria was met. How can the insurance company deny the claim due to faulty material/poor construction. My other question was, does the state of Hawaii require inspections for safety and durability to withstand the environment before a project is completed. I know the state of Florida does.
As I said earlier in one of my posts. That the large purchase DRI made should have been inspected by a structural engineer before they bought it. At this time you said it was known that there was a problem. Just maybe they had a vision of a new resort down the road. Now all of a sudden it our problem and DRI gets a new resort. I don't think so.

Joyce Weisberg

As others have pointed out - they didn't buy the resort they bought the unsold inventory & management contract.
 

timeos2

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John, your posts are normally spot on, but I disagree with your endorsement of this post because "Craigrow" has serious errors in his statement.

* Sunterra did not build the resort. It was someone else and it was a failed condo project.

* Diamond was NOT voted in as the new management company
Diamond took over management from Sunterra's mgmt company. DRI has been protecting their Board majority ever since. It is very important to understand that no deeded owners vote them in. NOT AT ALL. I think this is the biggest error in the post.

* Diamond did not discover the water instrusion problem. It has been a problem for many years. It may be accurate that they discovered the extent.

* The HOA who has 2 employees on the Board, the mother of Linda Riddle and 2 non DRI owners voted in the Special Assessment. DRI voted in the SA. The HOA is controled by the HOA

BUT, I CONCUR THAT DIAMOND IS NOT TOTALLY AT FAULT IN THIS MATTER. I feel that the way they handled it with a TOTAL lack of transparency is really the root of all the anger. I would have had much more communication to all owners in newsletters and voting polls to guage what the owners wanted to do with this problem. At least, people would have felt as if they were involved.

But again, conspiracy theories exist that this may be a way for DRI to acquire defaulted inventory from the HOA at a bargain price. Its pretty easy to figure out how to do it at a price of say $500 a week for 21.9 units. Again, only a theory and not factual and only an opinion of mine. I can get a bit creative with these matters from my background.

I'm not holding up Diamond for sainthood by any means. I'm just saying THEY didn't cause it but they sure reported it and now have a plan to deal with it. If the owners weren't happy with Diamond as the management, as had been alleged since 2009, they've had over 2 years to get together & act to remove them. They didn't, the problem has been fully identified and those in the seats to make the calls have acted to fix it. Anything less would really be negligence. Now it's too late to remove those Board members until the next election and even if the owners did that the work still needs to be done.

Far too many are ignoring the fact that no matter who is managing they inherited a flawed resort structure. Those that actually built the thing are no longer around to be held responsible and the owners representatives - whoever they may be - have to act by law to fix it. I'm all for owner power but they too have to follow the rules. A bad Board and/or management can be voted out - the owners chose, so far, not to do that thus endorsing the way it stands. They can still do it but that won't reverse the damage or the cost and in fact may add to it at this point.

Plainly stated any condo/timeshare Association faces this possibility - usually the numbers just aren't this high. But more and more they may be as resorts age and faults start to appear.
 
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I don't know that I have seen corporate statutes that require turning over telephone numbers, or for that matter email addresses. I agree with you about the phone numbers, but IMHO it would be a welcome update to include turning over email addresses in this day and age.

I think you were the one who got off on the telephone number tangent.


You've marched off on a wonderful tangent here, Steve. Going back, the comment is that there is black market in firms selling lists of owners names to scam firms doing telemarketing fraud. I pointed out that the prosecutors handling the upfront fee scams have alleged that such a market exists, and that the contact information appears to have been purloined from resorts and timeshare companies. I guess I gave you too much credit, I apologize. I thought you would realize that in a discussion of telemarketing fraud what gives a contact list value is telephone numbers, as it's pretty difficult to telemarket a list of owners when all you have is name and address.

I'm not at all arguing that the timeshare companies are properly withholding owner names and addresses. What I am saying is that I would expect they would withhold phone numbers. And phone numbers is where the black market exists.
 

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They reported it to members a loooonnnngggg time after they knew about it, and members have a very legitimate complaint about that.

The reason that members have not been able to vote Diamond out is that Diamond is stonewalling on turning over the membership list as they are required to do. As a leader of the concerned owners group there was quoted in a local newspaper last year, ''who controls the list controls the resort''. Just how are owners supposed to oust Diamond when they are illegally denied the one tool that they could use to get the message out and accomplish that?


I'm not holding up Diamond for sainthood by any means. I'm just saying THEY didn't cause it but they sure reported it and now have a plan to deal with it. If the owners weren't happy with Diamond as the management, as had been alleged since 2009, they've had over 2 years to get together & act to remove them. They didn't, the problem has been fully identified and those in the seats to make the calls have acted to fix it. Anything less would really be negligence. Now it's too late to remove those Board members until the next election and even if the owners did that the work still needs to be done.

Far too many are ignoring the fact that no matter who is managing they inherited a flawed resort structure. Those that actually built the thing are no longer around to be held responsible and the owners representatives - whoever they may be - have to act by law to fix it. I'm all for owner power but they too have to follow the rules. A bad Board and/or management can be voted out - the owners chose, so far, not to do that thus endorsing the way it stands. They can still do it but that won't reverse the damage or the cost and in fact may add to it at this point.

Plainly stated any condo/timeshare Association faces this possibility - usually the numbers just aren't this high. But more and more they may be as resorts age and faults start to appear.
 

timeos2

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They reported it to members a loooonnnngggg time after they knew about it, and members have a very legitimate complaint about that.

The reason that members have not been able to vote Diamond out is that Diamond is stonewalling on turning over the membership list as they are required to do. As a leader of the concerned owners group there was quoted in a local newspaper last year, ''who controls the list controls the resort''. Just how are owners supposed to oust Diamond when they are illegally denied the one tool that they could use to get the message out and accomplish that?

As you well know refusal to hand out the owners list is the number one method used to prevent organizing owners by entrenched/embattled management. The owners have to get creative as the legal road is usually far too long to be effective in the time frame they need now.

There are ways to get the message out without having direct access to that all important list. Those include getting the Association to do mailing(s) with "alternatives" proposed by an active owners group. By using all available avenues a determined group - with adequate support of those they have been able to contact/organize through venues such as TUG or now Facebook/Twitter, Yahoo e-groups, etc - can get the word out that owners need to take action.

Focusing and bemoaning the lack of a desired path such as easy access to the owners list or who makes up the majority of the sitting Board or even who may be to blame for the faulty buildings distracts from making real impact. It is far better to find alternative ways to get the word out and take steps to effect a change IF the group seeking a change is serious. There is too much spinning of wheels & meaningless venting that won't change a thing going vs a real move to find other answers if they exist and/or efforts to obtain control for the majority of owners. Instead it is repeated and worthless sabre rattling while the process they oppose races ahead.

I really want to see this resort overcome a big problem. Needless money wasted with legal battles never helps while efforts to find reasonable (and affordable) answers serve everyone well. Efforts to direct and work with the Association as it exists while working within the rules to make whatever changes may be needed works far better than lining lawyers pockets while the property suffers.
 

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The membership list is the most critical thing to achieve change at any resort. There should be a full court press to obtain it any way possible when you encounter scofflaw management which refuses to comply with the law as here. If you can find a list company that has it or a good part of it, great. That is a start. If someone can compile it from tax records, great. But you are also going to need the official list.

This project is also going to need legal advice and from a Hawaii attorney. Even if litigation is unnecessary, advice will be needed on how to proceed to make sure there are no glitches.

All of the situations I have had a fair knowledge of where authoritarian developers / managers have stonewalled on turning over the management list have resulted in those lists ultimately being produced without having to file a lawsuit. For that reason, it is worth pushing. Also, absent an appeal, it is an extremely simple legal issue that requires little research. Depending on what they can find in Hawaii law, a little research may produce some things to attach to discourage management from fighting. One attorney who made such a demand of management on the OBX for example threatened to bring suit under the consumer protection act which allowed collection of legal fees by the plaintiffs and to seek injunctive relief to prohibit the election of directors until the list issue was settled and to tie their hands in other ways. Management's attorney quickly waved a white flag and no lawsuit had to be filed.

The attitude of many developers and sometimes management companies seems well expressed by a quote from Leonid Bresnev, ''The bad thing about free elections is that you do not know who is going to win''.


As you well know refusal to hand out the owners list is the number one method used to prevent organizing owners by entrenched/embattled management. The owners have to get creative as the legal road is usually far too long to be effective in the time frame they need now.

There are ways to get the message out without having direct access to that all important list. Those include getting the Association to do mailing(s) with "alternatives" proposed by an active owners group. By using all available avenues a determined group - with adequate support of those they have been able to contact/organize through venues such as TUG or now Facebook/Twitter, Yahoo e-groups, etc - can get the word out that owners need to take action.

Focusing and bemoaning the lack of a desired path such as easy access to the owners list or who makes up the majority of the sitting Board or even who may be to blame for the faulty buildings distracts from making real impact. It is far better to find alternative ways to get the word out and take steps to effect a change IF the group seeking a change is serious. There is too much spinning of wheels & meaningless venting that won't change a thing going vs a real move to find other answers if they exist and/or efforts to obtain control for the majority of owners. Instead it is repeated and worthless sabre rattling while the process they oppose races ahead.

I really want to see this resort overcome a big problem. Needless money wasted with legal battles never helps while efforts to find reasonable (and affordable) answers serve everyone well. Efforts to direct and work with the Association as it exists while working within the rules to make whatever changes may be needed works far better than lining lawyers pockets while the property suffers.
 
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lv_maui

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My last post on this issue

Although I am upset with all of this and I have publicly put out there my concerns, there is not much more I can do with this website posting. I will have to decide on my own whether I want to get involved in litigation, if it is an option presented to me.

In my opinion, I will be hearing of litigation somehow. Legal manuevers will take years even a TIO will be iffy in the short term. If legal slows things up, DRI will claim emergency repairs are needed in certain buildings asap.

If anyone wants to discuss more on PM, please do so.

And in the spirit of quotes, a very respected friend of mine said "The best form of government is a dictatorship.....if you have a good dictator"


All of the situations I have had a fair knowledge of where authoritarian developers / managers have stonewalled on turning over the management list have resulted in those lists ultimately being produced without having to file a lawsuit. For that reason, it is worth pushing. Also, absent an appeal, it is an extremely simple legal issue that requires little research. Depending on what they can find in Hawaii law, a little research may produce some things to attach to discourage management from fighting. One attorney who made such a demand of management on the OBX for example threatened to bring suit under the consumer protection act which allowed collection of legal fees by the plaintiffs and to seek injunctive relief to prohibit the election of directors until the list issue was settled and to tie their hands in other ways. Management's attorney quickly waved a white flag and no lawsuit had to be filed.

The attitude of many developers and sometimes management companies seems well expressed by a quote from Leonid Bresnev, ''The bad thing about free elections is that you do not know who is going to win''.
 

bogey21

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IMO the best strategy (unless you plan to use your Week) is to hold off paying for as long as you can take the heat. This will vary from Owner to Owner. Hopefully, something positive will happen in the interim.

George
 

Poobah

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Same church different pew

I was "lucky enough" to go through this same thing as an owner at Morritts in Grand Cayman after Ivan. The posts on this board are deja vu and in the end David Morritt did whatever he wanted to do. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, he never disclosed how much he got from the arbitration with Lloyds of London.

The situation is a little different in that Morritts is a "right to use" situation, not an ownership situation, nor was the special assessment near the level of this one. But, David and DRI are out of the same mold: Public Relations is not their long suit!

One of the similarities I see is asssessing the current owners/trust for defaulted special assessment fees. This is fine, as long as the HOA gets the defaulted units, and gets the sale proceeds to compensate the owners/trust for their investment.

If the idea is that the owners/trust are going to provide funding to make up for the defaults and then DRI gets the interval to sell and take the profit, this is simply wrong. I think even David Morritt gave in on this point.

If DRI gets the defaulted units and the proceeds of the sales they should be totally responsible for anteing up the delenquent/defaulted fees. Defaulted/delenquent fees should not be part of the Special Assessment to the owners/trust.

Even SunTerra paid the HOA any delinquent/defaulted fees, because they got the units back and re-sold them.:whoopie:


Cheers,

Paul
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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One of the similarities I see is asssessing the current owners/trust for defaulted special assessment fees. This is fine, as long as the HOA gets the defaulted units, and gets the sale proceeds to compensate the owners/trust for their investment.

If the idea is that the owners/trust are going to provide funding to make up for the defaults and then DRI gets the interval to sell and take the profit, this is simply wrong. I think even David Morritt gave in on this point.
I think the chances of the trust defaulting on its payments are pretty slim, since the trust likely receives one single bill for all of its intervals.

*****

I was also thinking some more about what the impact on the trust would be in the resort were to simply close. And I think that would create some difficult problems for the trust.

If Poipu were to close its door, suddenly the trust would have less inventory to it, but the same number of owners, with the same undivided interest in the trust. Since there would be the same number of owners but with less inventory, the number of points required for reservations would have to rise to keep the "pricing" in balance with with the number of points held by owners in the trust. If Poipu represents, say, 35% of the total pool of points cirrently in trust inventory, if Poipu were to close, all of the Trust members points would have to devalue by 35% to keep the inventory points and trust ownership in balance.

That would mean that people who bought into the trust at point levels that guaranteed them being able to reserve a full week in a certain unit at a certain time of year would suddenly only be able to reserve 4 or 5 nights instead of 7 nights.

I think the implications of that situation for the trust would be tremendous. If the noise about misleading sales practices is loud now, it would reach a fever pitch if people who bought an interest in the trust to give themselves a week at Ka'anapali, for example, were no longer able to book that week because of problems that had occurred at Poipu. Lawsuits would almost certainly start flying, as people who bought with clearly conveyed expectations of being able to make specific reservations were suddenly no longer able to get what they purchased.

As I was thinking about this, I concluded it it almost certain that the Trust will vote its 35% for rebuilding the resort. From a practical point of view, I don't see how the trust could absorb the impact of suddenly losing about 35% of its inventory while maintaining the numbers of owners roughly constant.
 

JudyS

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OWNERS - Please join this facebook page to help unite us! I will be assisting the current owner's group in tracking down and recruiting current owners!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Point-of-Poipu-Angry-Owners/148027451960608

Thanks for doing this. When I get to the FB page, I only see a "Like" button, no join button or link. Am I missing something?
Facebook is SO counter-intuitive! Hitting "Like" is the way you join the group.
 

JudyS

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....
I was also thinking some more about what the impact on the trust would be in the resort were to simply close. And I think that would create some difficult problems for the trust.

If Poipu were to close its door, suddenly the trust would have less inventory to it, but the same number of owners, with the same undivided interest in the trust. Since there would be the same number of owners but with less inventory, the number of points required for reservations would have to rise to keep the "pricing" in balance with with the number of points held by owners in the trust. If Poipu represents, say, 35% of the total pool of points cirrently in trust inventory, if Poipu were to close, all of the Trust members points would have to devalue by 35% to keep the inventory points and trust ownership in balance.

That would mean that people who bought into the trust at point levels that guaranteed them being able to reserve a full week in a certain unit at a certain time of year would suddenly only be able to reserve 4 or 5 nights instead of 7 nights....
This is an excellent point -- if the resorts closes, then there will no longer be enough resort nights in the DRI Hawaii trust. However, DRI would have another option: they could rent nights at other resorts to keep the number of available resort nights constant. I doubt DRI would WANT to do this, but they could. For a while MROP was doing just that, renting weeks from other resorts, because MROP had merged with a bankrupt points-based system that didn't have enough inventory to meet its obligations to its owners.
 
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