Points presentation at MCV

[windje2000]

We are not at home, and do not have easy access to everything now, but we are wondering if dbbk hasn't hit this squarely on the head! Could this be where the limitations come in for legacy owners?

We don't know any body in Marriott, so we don't have any sources to contact about this mess...but we are going to keep looking into it. If makes a big difference to us whether we have full or partial access to all the properties of MVCD...

Tiel - Big thanks for your original post #16- you are the Magellan of this topic

 

[JoeZuke]

Tiel - Big thanks for your original post #16- you are the Magellan of this topic

I just returned from our OceanWatch vacation and was looking for a post that dealt with this very topic. Thanks to Tiel for starting it and Puckman for the additional research and everyone else’s comments. Here is what I heard.

Our sales rep pitched the same concept regarding the purchasing of the additional 1,000 to become a “Point Owner” status. With this status we would have access to all available Enrolled Owner and Trust Owner inventory.

To validate what the sales rep told us I had discussions with sales managers and they confirmed. There will be multiple pools of inventory. Trust Owners will have priority access to both pools of inventory (1. weeks deposited by Legacy Enrolled Owners, 2. Trust Owners, MRP and future properties put into the Trust Inventory). When inventory is pulled from the Legacy Enrolled Owners pool by a Point Owner, the system will move inventory from the Trust to the Enrolled to satisfy Legacy Enrolled Owners requests.

We purchased the 1,000 points with the option to cancel within 10 days after doing the additional research. The sales managers believe there will be enough inventory moving between the two pools to satisfy the Legacy Enrolled Owners requests. They recommend I look at the additional 1,000 points as a compliment to my current week’s inventory rather than as a way to get priority status.

I am still on the fence at this time about having that priority Point Owner status.

 

[hotcoffee]

To validate what the sales rep told us I had discussions with sales managers and they confirmed. There will be multiple pools of inventory. Trust Owners will have priority access to both pools of inventory (1. weeks deposited by Legacy Enrolled Owners, 2. Trust Owners, MRP and future properties put into the Trust Inventory). When inventory is pulled from the Legacy Enrolled Owners pool by a Point Owner, the system will move inventory from the Trust to the Enrolled to satisfy Legacy Enrolled Owners requests. . . .

I do not thing this is going to turn out to be true. The Disclosure Guide (paragraph VIII) does not make any distinction between which type of members can pull from affiliate inventories. And that is a legal document that they have to abide by. What I think will probably turn out to be true is that Trust Members will have priority over inventory in the Trust at the percentage of the number of points that have been sold. Since the Trust is an affiliate and is on the same level with all other resorts participating in the program, any inventory that "is owned" by the Trust Owners will be unavailable to exchangers in the same manner as at the resorts. If they have sold 100,000 points on July 26, they will probably have to keep back 100,000 points worth of inventory in the Trust to account for the Trust Members who "own" that much inventory.

 

[kedler]

I just returned from our OceanWatch vacation and was looking for a post that dealt with this very topic. Thanks to Tiel for starting it and Puckman for the additional research and everyone else’s comments. Here is what I heard.

Our sales rep pitched the same concept regarding the purchasing of the additional 1,000 to become a “Point Owner” status. With this status we would have access to all available Enrolled Owner and Trust Owner inventory.

To validate what the sales rep told us I had discussions with sales managers and they confirmed. There will be multiple pools of inventory. Trust Owners will have priority access to both pools of inventory (1. weeks deposited by Legacy Enrolled Owners, 2. Trust Owners, MRP and future properties put into the Trust Inventory). When inventory is pulled from the Legacy Enrolled Owners pool by a Point Owner, the system will move inventory from the Trust to the Enrolled to satisfy Legacy Enrolled Owners requests.

We purchased the 1,000 points with the option to cancel within 10 days after doing the additional research. The sales managers believe there will be enough inventory moving between the two pools to satisfy the Legacy Enrolled Owners requests. They recommend I look at the additional 1,000 points as a compliment to my current week’s inventory rather than as a way to get priority status.

I am still on the fence at this time about having that priority Point Owner status.

We also did the presentation at OceanWatch and purchased points. We decided that it made no sense just to purchase 1000 points because that put us close to but not quite at the 6500 mark so we thought if we were doing it we might as well add the extra to hit the 6500 mark which in our case is also what we need to ensure that we can vacation the way we want using points, weeks or a combination of both. We will like and will use some of the Explorer Collection in the near future. We also fell in love with OceanWatch and want to be able to go back in the summer as we are stuck with school schedules for the immediate future.

The Rep started out showing us a much bigger package of points but as soon as I said I had a child going to college in 2 years she said then forget it. We started going over the numbers to see what made sense for us going forward and what we could afford and finally decided to buy.

We've looked at the weeks/points numbers since we came home as we have until tomorrow to back out and our conclusion is we think it will give us what we need for the next few years. I've read the majority of the helpful/informational posts on TUG and all the documents so we understand the pros and cons. We like the idea of having the 13 month window but we didn't buy to get that window as we know that Marriot can change that status level in the future. For now we see it as an added perk.

Additionally we have two resale weeks - both bronze - that I bought to trade in Flexchange last fall and I paid under $500 for each. The way I look at it, even with what I call the resale enrollment fee ($1300), and the low points given I'm still way ahead. We are getting 1275 points between the two which would have cost us $11,730., but, including the $1300, we paid a total of $2005 for those points. Savings of $9,725. plus no fees to exchange M to M and the option for MR points on one of the weeks. The MF's much higher though because its two weeks but we still have the option to trade in flexchange as we have done in the past.

Basically I like having all these options and the ability (in theory) to book vacations for both longer and shorter periods of time than 7 days. July 26 is around the corner so I guess we'll soon see how it actually works.

I hope this helps your thought process.

 

[hotcoffee]

We also did the presentation at OceanWatch and purchased points. We decided that it made no sense just to purchase 1000 points because that put us close to but not quite at the 6500 mark so we thought if we were doing it we might as well add the extra to hit the 6500 mark which in our case is also what we need to ensure that we can vacation the way we want using points, weeks or a combination of both. We will like and will use some of the Explorer Collection in the near future. We also fell in love with OceanWatch and want to be able to go back in the summer as we are stuck with school schedules for the immediate future. . . .

It is interesting that I did basically the same thing as I think you are saying. I only had the one week, but it gave me 5150 points. That put me within striking distance of 6500. So, even though I have the same college expense issues that you have (in fact, I have two kids), I decided that being Premier would make my existing week much more valuable than just the 5150 points that they were going to give me, which given the skim, was substantially reduced in value. If indeed Trust Members really did have the priority to everything, I would be in great shape, since I will be a Trust Member. But, I don't think it is so, based upon the Disclosure Guide. It looks to me that Trust Members and Exchange Members are on an equal footing.

 

[pipet]

The Disclosure Guide (paragraph VIII) does not make any distinction between which type of members can pull from affiliate inventories. And that is a legal document that they have to abide by.

They don't need to make a distinction. All they have to do is say they will confirm your request if it is available. There is no section in the documents exactly and specifically outlining how they decide inventory becomes available, and that is part of the problem evidenced by this thread! Legally they actually defined very little for them to abide by.

IMO, a lot would have trusted Marriott to do the right thing by whatever procedures it deems necessary. By enrolling in the program, you are indeed giving Marriott a lot of trust because I can't count how many times it says they can change anything without notification or approval. The problem is, with skim, they have created a lot of trust issues!

One hopes at the end of all this they do have a relatively seamless point exchange operation because they need it to work! I'd like to think that Marriott isn't stupid enough to sink their business, but this roll out ranks high up there on the incompetence list.

 

[DanCali]

Our sales rep pitched the same concept regarding the purchasing of the additional 1,000 to become a “Point Owner” status. With this status we would have access to all available Enrolled Owner and Trust Owner inventory.

To validate what the sales rep told us I had discussions with sales managers and they confirmed. There will be multiple pools of inventory. Trust Owners will have priority access to both pools of inventory (1. weeks deposited by Legacy Enrolled Owners, 2. Trust Owners, MRP and future properties put into the Trust Inventory). When inventory is pulled from the Legacy Enrolled Owners pool by a Point Owner, the system will move inventory from the Trust to the Enrolled to satisfy Legacy Enrolled Owners requests.

We purchased the 1,000 points with the option to cancel within 10 days after doing the additional research.

Just so you know, in the latest thread on this topic the current assessment is that you will not be able to combine trust points and legacy points to search trust invntory. If this legal structure of separation of trust and legacy points turns out to be true (all signs point to "yes"), this actually makes sense... the fact that you buy 1000 trust points can't magically turn your exchanged legacy week points into trust points. You will get “Point Owner” status but only for 1000 points, not the 10K+ points you were led to believe.

My guess is that you were told what you were told because it helped close the sale. I would rescind now (both the 1000 point purchase and enrollment to points) and wait to find out the real answer after people report experiences. You will always be able to buy 1000 points anytime in the future but you can only get a refund for a week or so (and I don't think you need to worry about point prices going up next week).

It it turns out they lied to you to close the sale, you should reconsider how much you want to do business with a company that operates in this manner.

 

[hotcoffee]

Just so you know, in the latest thread on this topic the current assessment is that you will not be able to combine trust points and legacy points to search trust invntory. If this legal structure of separation of trust and legacy points turns out to be true (all signs point to "yes"), this actually makes sense... the fact that you buy 1000 trust points can't magically turn your exchanged legacy week points into trust points. You will get “Point Owner” status but only for 1000 points, not the 10K+ points you were led to believe. . . .

Dan, what do you do with this statement in Section III, B, 1, of the document

EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM?

"Currently, the conversion of Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points is one-to-one; . . ."

That sure sound like Trust Members can convert their points to Destination Points to me. Destination Points are Destination Points regardless of how you get them.

 

[DanCali]

Dan, what do you do with this statement in Section III, B, 1, of the document

EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM?

"Currently, the conversion of Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points is one-to-one; . . ."

That sure sound like Trust Members can convert their points to Destination Points to me. Destination Points are Destination Points regardless of how you get them.

Maybe I wasn't clear so I'll try to explain better wat I meant.

JoeZuke said he heard this:

To validate what the sales rep told us I had discussions with sales managers and they confirmed. There will be multiple pools of inventory. Trust Owners will have priority access to both pools of inventory (1. weeks deposited by Legacy Enrolled Owners, 2. Trust Owners, MRP and future properties put into the Trust Inventory). When inventory is pulled from the Legacy Enrolled Owners pool by a Point Owner, the system will move inventory from the Trust to the Enrolled to satisfy Legacy Enrolled Owners requests.

It goes back to the topic that Trust Points > Legacy Points. It basically means that Trust owners can search trust inventory AND Marriott Exchange Co inventory and Converted weeks can only search Marriott Exchange Co inventory. I know you disagree that this is actually the legal structure of things, but for purposes of the discussion let's assume it holds (and it's also what the person I was replying to heard).

My point was that if I own an NCV week and convert to 3475 points next year and also bought 1000 points, I can only search trust inventory with 1000 points and NOT 4475 points. Buying 1000 points doesn't turn my 3475 points into Trust points... I believe Dave M is working on getting an answer from his contacts on this.

If he bought 1000 points thinking all his Exchange Company points get access to all trust inventory I think it's prudent to hold off on the purchase for now.

 

[hotcoffee]

My point was that if I own an NCV week and convert to 3475 points next year and also bought 1000 points, I can only search trust inventory with 1000 points and NOT 4475 points. Buying 1000 points doesn't turn my 3475 points into Trust points... I believe Dave M is working on getting an answer from his contacts on this.

If he bought 1000 points thinking all his Exchange Company points get access to all trust inventory I think it's prudent to hold off on the purchase for now.

You are correct about not agreeing on the availability of all inventory. I think they have to abide by what they wrote. And they wrote that all members can reserve accomodations at affiliates that are a part of the program. Since the Trust is an affiliate that is part of the program (as are all of the resorts), any inventory at any of the resorts as well as that in the Trust that is not "owned" (either via points or via deed) will be available to any member who wants to exchange his points for an accomodation (with the understanding that Marriott can load balance demand as they see fit).

On the issue of whether the 1000 extra points can be combined with enrolled points, it is clear from the exchange document that Trust points can be converted to exchange points. That makes both sets of points the same. Then the combined points can be used to search available inventory.

 

[DanCali]

You are correct about not agreeing on the availability of all inventory. I think they have to abide by what they wrote. And they wrote that all members can reserve accomodations at affiliates that are a part of the program. Since the Trust is an affiliate that is part of the program (as are all of the resorts), any inventory at any of the resorts as well as that in the Trust that is not "owned" (either via points or via deed) will be available to any member who wants to exchange his points for an accomodation (with the understanding that Marriott can load balance demand as they see fit).

On the issue of whether the 1000 extra points can be combined with enrolled points, it is clear from the exchange document that Trust points can be converted to exchange points. That makes both sets of points the same. Then the combined points can be used to search available inventory.

Well - since you also believe that converted week points can search trust inventory in general, I am not surprised you reached this conclusion.

However, since many (if not most) of us reading this board these days are inclined to believe otherwise, I think it was prudent to let him know that the 1000 points might not be combinable with "legacy" points. Especially since his own sales rep told him specifically that converted week points CANNOT search trust inventory (unless of course he spends $9K...)

As for the documents, are you a lawyer? Because there are several here on TUG who have remained silent on the interpretation of what you point to. To me, the working is too vague to mean anything...

 

[MikeZ]

Dan, what do you do with this statement in Section III, B, 1, of the document

EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM?

"Currently, the conversion of Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points is one-to-one; . . ."

That sure sound like Trust Members can convert their points to Destination Points to me. Destination Points are Destination Points regardless of how you get them.

There is substantial debate as to whether or not you are interpreting this as it will be executed. Most who have done research have come to the conclusion that DP are NOT DP, regardless of how you get them.

To JoeZuke I would advise taking a step back and watching how this plays out over the next couple months. There is no cost to do so! If you rescind now, you can make that same deal after watching the early adopters work the system. The issue of trust points vs. Legacy points may be a small deal, over the long run, or it may be a very big deal. If you wait a little longer, I am confident you will get much more of a clear picture.

 

[m61376]

hotcoffee- Just because they wrote that all members can reserve accommodations at affiliates that are a part of the program doesn't mean that the opportunity to make the reservation will be available. It is no different that being told a Bronze week can trade for Christmas or New Years weeks in Aruba, Maui, a ski week, etc.- it can happen, it has happened, but we all know that outside of Flexchange the stars have to be aligned for it to realistically happen.

As others have pointed out, we still do not know the answers of whether legacy points are < or = trust points and, assuming the former, if adding 1000+ trust points will allow you access to trust inventory with anything other than the 1000 points you just bought.

That said, since there is no rush to lay out ~10K and commit to an additional $400 a year in MF's, I think JoeZuke would be better off rescinding, see what pans out at least over the next few days (as Dave M hopefully will have an official response to this) and perhaps the next several weeks to see what other questions crop up. Joe, if you rescind and hold off you have nothing to lose, but if you go forward and things don't turn out like you were told you may be one annoyed owner.

 

[JoeZuke]

hotcoffee- Just because they wrote that all members can reserve accommodations at affiliates that are a part of the program doesn't mean that the opportunity to make the reservation will be available. It is no different that being told a Bronze week can trade for Christmas or New Years weeks in Aruba, Maui, a ski week, etc.- it can happen, it has happened, but we all know that outside of Flexchange the stars have to be aligned for it to realistically happen.

As others have pointed out, we still do not know the answers of whether legacy points are < or = trust points and, assuming the former, if adding 1000+ trust points will allow you access to trust inventory with anything other than the 1000 points you just bought.

That said, since there is no rush to lay out ~10K and commit to an additional $400 a year in MF's, I think JoeZuke would be better off rescinding, see what pans out at least over the next few days (as Dave M hopefully will have an official response to this) and perhaps the next several weeks to see what other questions crop up. Joe, if you rescind and hold off you have nothing to lose, but if you go forward and things don't turn out like you were told you may be one annoyed owner.

Thanks everyone for your recommendations. I'll look forward to Dave M's offical response. Great that we have each other to bounce these issues off of.