Points presentation at MCV

[puckmanfl]

good morning....

don't know.... electronically signed my paperwork...

still can't find anything in the documents that says this is how it works!!!!

Am I the only TUGGER remotely concerned regarding this!!!! I feel llike there really is a black helicopter coming!!!!

 

[windje2000]

deleted - rethinking

 

[Whirl]

Times change and so must we. Its not personal.

I don't think anyone has an issue with trading up, but you have to be realistic about it. Some people are screaming about the new system as if it is some kind of moral outrage and denial of their rights to trade their $10k week for a $40k week "like the salesman promised".

Although the points system directly negatively effects me, I think it is hypocritical to feel outraged. The old system was used to benefit a small number of owners at the expense of the majority. Whether it was through lack of understanding, flexibility, resourcefulness, etc. does not really matter. Every uptrade requires a downtrade. It is a zero sum system.

When Marriott sold every week for approximately the same $$$ then the weeks were truly comparable. When Marriott sold weeks during the real estate boom for 40, 50, even 80+k per week then my Horizons gold is truly not comparable.

I understand why Marriott wants to take better control of its inventory and wants to reset trading on a more comparable basis. They want to maximize the perceived 'fairness' for everyone, but especially for the people who spent the big bucks directly with them. I believe the new points charts are a more direct relationship to the relative values of the week.

Tuggers have always know that July 4th was worth a lot more than Nov 3rd even though they are both Platinum. We reaped that value from the other owners. Now there is another system where the values are available for anyone to see. This creates new opportunities, which is why I will enroll and keep my options open, but it is just a different way to distribute the value over more owners. The weeks will now go to those willing to PAY for them, vs. those who get lucky or get an II rep who wants to earn a commission. I believe that is why Marriott is doing it, not some evil scheme.

Well, well written post. Especially from someone who even feels that the system negatively impacts them. Objectivity is the key and realizing what Marriott did and did not promise us

We have been able to exploit the system for years. Through both RCI and II, I have had cheap resale weeks and have gotten some phenomenal trades, but I was working a system with some inherent inequities that were only exploitable by a small minority ( most probably here on TUG!). For every great up-trade I got, some-one else who paid retail and had high maintanence fees and doesn't know the system as well, had to settle for something less than they wanted and less than the value of what they gave up. Even after I initially bought resale I bought direct from Marriot and ahve never regretted. Now as time has gone on, my Marriott weeks are the ones I rely on the most for my families' vacations. The others I own are jsut supplementa;.rentals, or because I have some inexplicable sentimental attachment to them.

Now the system is being updated to be more equitable and provide greater flexibilty to the majority and is really as it should always have been. Marriott never promised us anything other than access to our week and season and view purchased. That's it and that hasn't changed.

The Marriott Vacation Club program docs state that the affiliation with Interval is subject to change and that they have the right to leave interval and create their own exchange system...that is written right in the program documents when we bought our Barony week in 1999 ( or was it 2000?)...just read them last night again. So...its here now.


The timeshare industry has been in a state of continual evolution and I have had to change my timesharing and vacationing strategies and holdings over the years as a result.

Same thing now. It's another change. I have 2 choices: I can embrace it and make it work for me or carry a grudge the rest of my vacationing days....no thanks on the latter.

MArriott never promised to run these resorts that we love to visit in perpetuity ( Barony docs say 5 renewable 5 year terms and then they will reassess after that) or if the business wasn't viable. Timeshare owners are only on of several different stakeholders to whom they must cater, first and foremost their equity and bond holders that provide capital for their businesses.

Their timeshare model has been heavily linked to the real estate market and we all know what happed there. As as result, like so many individuals ( maybe even some of out beloved TUGgers) that find themselves underwater and facing forecosure, they have to think creatively about how to stay afloat and keep their multitude of stakeholders happy.

As such, they will do their best to cater to the most important and the majority of interested parties. Even if you never join the points program and you are not among those who can or are willing to make it work, you don't want Marriott to fail or we will ALL be sitting on some pretty worthless timeshare weeks or face being sold off to another survivor in the industry...and there really are not too many, from my vantage point, that I want to be involved with...I have owned my fair share of varied ownerships and programs over the years and Marriott suits me best. So I don't see that there is any choice but to roll with it.

Keep vacationing folks. The landscape is changing, its just business....find a way to enjoy the view!

 

[Ricci]

WOW....isn't it amazing they didn't mention that in my points presentation? How convenient.

 

[SueDonJ]

good morning all...

This post is for Tiel and the answer to post #16... The news ain't pretty.


I just finished my phone call with advocacy department after learning this from my guru...
It works as follows.
There are 2 separate pols of "points" inventory.

Pool #1 consists of points generated from all of the "deeds" placed in the trust on 6/20/10 + points generated from 'deeds" on newly acquired properties or resorts.

Pool #2 consists of points that enrolled or non enrolled legacy owners convert to MR points, points from units that enrolled owners convert to Destination Club points and points generated from units that are in delinquencies...

on the opening day of trading (7/26) Trust owners (new points purchasers) have access to BOTH pools #1 and #2, Exchange owners (legacy owners that have enrolled and converted to points) have access to only Pool #2.

Here is where it gets tricky!!! If and ONLY if a Trust owner grabs a reservation from Pool #2, then a reservation becomes available to an Exchange owner from Pool #1. Legacy point users have to wait until Trust owners make moves before Legacy point users get access to Trust inventory...

In English, at first Legacy owners using points only have access to units turned in by other owners for DC or MR points or delinquencies. Trust owners have access to ALL inventory in POINTS (pools 1 and 2)

Tombo and Dan, you can now proceed with the "I told you so's"....

Let the games begin...

I now join the enrollees. that will play in II and will hope to recoup my fees by saving on lock offs etc. In 2012 I will unenroll and just play as before...

Up until this post we were all so worried that all Points owners would be able to swoop in and take all the "best" Weeks, right? That for certain high-demand intervals, the availability would be diluted for Weeks owners?

And now today we're going to start worrying that IF Purchased Points owners DON'T swoop in and take all those Weeks, then Enrolled Weeks owners will find no availability of the intervals conveyed to the Trust?

Is there a reason to think now that Purchased Points owners will NOT be looking to stay at the existing resorts which have had no intervals conveyed to the Trust? If so, then there's a reason to worry. If not ...

 

[jimf41]

In English, at first Legacy owners using points only have access to units turned in by other owners for DC or MR points or delinquencies. Trust owners have access to ALL inventory in POINTS (pools 1 and 2)

If this is true then there will be four pools of inventory.

Pool #1 Inventory deposited into the trust by Marriott. Available only to trust members, initially.

Pool #2 Inventory obtained from enrolled members converting their weeks to points. Available to trust members and enrolled members who convert their weeks to points.

Pool #3 Inventory owned by weeks owners. Available to non-enrolled owners and enrolled owners using their week as a week.

Pool #4 Same as pool #1 but now it's available to trust members and enrolled members to the extent that enrolled members convert as in pool #2.

I remember a Star Trek episode where Capt. Kirk invented a card game called Furbin that had similar rules.

If this is in fact true I think it will be a similar policy to that of the MRP's associated as a bonus for buying a TS direct from MVCI. These points were not allowed to be used for redemption in an MVCI TS, only in the hotels. In actuality this was impossible to keep track of for people who generated a lot of points from other means and was not enforced as far as my usage. When I used points to stay in Marbella a few years ago I asked the rep if I had enough non TS bonus points to make the reservation and he said that while MR did have that policy they did not track in any way and that he would have no idea what points were being used for hotel stays and what points were used for TS stays. AS long as I had the total I could use them any way I wanted.

 

[Whirl]

good morning....

don't know.... electronically signed my paperwork...

still can't find anything in the documents that says this is how it works!!!!

Am I the only TUGGER remotely concerned regarding this!!!! I feel llike there really is a black helicopter coming!!!!

I would be concerned about it as well. But still unconfirmed, so I am not going to jump off any buildings over it at this ( or any ) point. There have been more misinformation than good reliable information imparted on calls with Marriott and sales presentations ( that has never changed)...so I think we just have to wait for something reliable to come out somehow.

I do have to say thank you for your digging and the tenacity of so many here on TUG to seek knowledge and truth. Despite much emotion and sometimes irrational debates, that is what TUG is here for... It has helped me shape and maximize my vacationing for well over a decade!

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning

Sue ...

the concern is that Trust owners CAN swoop in and take good legacy weeks AND take trust inventory but a legacy point player cannot swoop in and take 'trust" inventory...

Hypothetically, an owner returns a park city ski week for DC points. Now a trust owner AND a legacy points player can go after it. The legacy points player is more likely to go after this primo week, because they cannot go into "trust" inventory!!!!

I believe it was the understanding in TUG land that points (exchange and trust) players had access to ALL points inventory. Now you have 2 distinct pools of point inventory!!!

There is good inventory in both pools. I believe this system will lead to a decrease in legacy owners(even enrollees) converting their weeks to points, bringing the system to gridlock!!!

MVCD is stating that a trust point is more valuable then a legacy point. This is after getting skimmed 5% to do it...

 

[aka Julie]

If this is true then there will be four pools of inventory.

Pool #1 Inventory deposited into the trust by Marriott. Available only to trust members, initially.

Pool #2 Inventory obtained from enrolled members converting their weeks to points. Available to trust members and enrolled members who convert their weeks to points.

Pool #3 Inventory owned by weeks owners. Available to non-enrolled owners and enrolled owners using their week as a week.

Pool #4 Same as pool #1 but now it's available to trust members and enrolled members to the extent that enrolled members convert as in pool #2.

I remember a Star Trek episode where Capt. Kirk invented a card game called Furbin that had similar rules.

If this is in fact true I think it will be a similar policy to that of the MRP's associated as a bonus for buying a TS direct from MVCI. These points were not allowed to be used for redemption in an MVCI TS, only in the hotels. In actuality this was impossible to keep track of for people who generated a lot of points from other means and was not enforced as far as my usage. When I used points to stay in Marbella a few years ago I asked the rep if I had enough non TS bonus points to make the reservation and he said that while MR did have that policy they did not track in any way and that he would have no idea what points were being used for hotel stays and what points were used for TS stays. AS long as I had the total I could use them any way I wanted.

Can they make it any more complicated? The Average Joe/Jane who is not a TUGGer will have no clue.

 

[windje2000]

Up until this post we were all so worried that all Points owners would be able to swoop in and take all the "best" Weeks, right? That for certain high-demand intervals, the availability would be diluted for Weeks owners?

And now today we're going to start worrying that IF Purchased Points owners DON'T swoop in and take all those Weeks, then Enrolled Weeks owners will find no availability of the intervals conveyed to the Trust?

Is there a reason to think now that Purchased Points owners will NOT be looking to stay at the existing resorts which have had no intervals conveyed to the Trust? If so, then there's a reason to worry. If not ...

Actually Sue, I think the problems here are that

1. Getting complete and accurate information with which to analyze the new system has been like peeling an onion, and

2. given the first impression the skim sends most people, they expect the worst.

Those issues and their effect on customer attitudes rest squarely on Marriott's doorstep.

 

[Cindala]

good morning....

I have no idea how to start a new thread...

Perhaps Denise, DaveM or yourself can help...

This is news....

Definitely news that deserves it's own thread. Log into Tug and copy your original post. Then at the top of the Marriott Resort System page, click on the New Thread button (top left). Paste your original post and give it a title. Then you are good to go.

 

[Ricci]

Unless potential enrollees read this thread, I don't believe they will realize they don't have access to the trust pool without buying points. It was never mentioned in my presentation. I was told if I enrolled my weeks(which I didn't), and converted them to points, I would have access to all point inventory.

 

[DanCali]

Tombo and Dan, you can now proceed with the "I told you so's"....

While I am sure there will be more than enough opportunities for "I told you so's" in the next few months, I am skeptical this is one of them.

What you describe is so bad that I am just speechless... In fact, I'd venture to say it's more likely that your guru is wrong rather than this being correct. Otherwise, the points system is truly pointless (pun intended).

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning

Dan...

I ran this up the chain at customer advocacy. I can't imagine anyone in corporate would confirm such craziness unless it was true!!!!

I gave my guru 3 days to run this up the chain of command and "say it aint so" but no such luck...

please start the I told you so's...

 

[windje2000]

While I am sure there will be more than enough opportunities for "I told you so's" in the next few months, I am skeptical this is one of them.

What you describe is so bad that I am just speechless... In fact, I'd venture to say it's more likely that your guru is wrong rather than this being correct. Otherwise, the points system is truly pointless (pun intended).

Pointless? That's the problem!!!

Buy some points! Get full access!

That's the point D) of the program.

 

[SueDonJ]

good morning

Sue ...

the concern is that Trust owners CAN swoop in and take good legacy weeks AND take trust inventory but a legacy point player cannot swoop in and take 'trust" inventory...

Hypothetically, an owner returns a park city ski week for DC points. Now a trust owner AND a legacy points player can go after it. The legacy points player is more likely to go after this primo week, because they cannot go into "trust" inventory!!!!

I believe it was the understanding in TUG land that points (exchange and trust) players had access to ALL points inventory. Now you have 2 distinct pools of point inventory!!!

There is good inventory in both pools. I believe this system will lead to a decrease in legacy owners(even enrollees) converting their weeks to points, bringing the system to gridlock!!!

MVCD is stating that a trust point is more valuable then a legacy point. This is after getting skimmed 5% to do it...

Hi Puck!

I would expect the gridlock that you mention ONLY if Trust owners DON'T exchange out of the Trust intervals and into the Legacy intervals. Like I said, yesterday we were all so worried that Trust owners would dilute our Weeks inventory by doing exactly that - why are we now worrying that they WON'T?

Going back to all those months of speculation, I guess I just always figured that MVCI's future would be tied to whatever new system they implemented and that purchasers of the new system would be the darlings of the ownership pool. Now it turns out that it's a Trust system and Weeks owners have been given the option to enroll for certain exchange opportunities. But I have no doubt that we've been invited only because Marriott needs our intervals in order to open up the existing Weeks inventory to Trust owners - it doesn't surprise me that we're not on equal footing. Marriott has a history of differentiating owner pools - direct purchasers got MRP exchange value, external resales did not - and now they've done it again.

Like Whirl says, all of this is unconfirmed and we really will have no idea how the buckets and pools and what-all else will impact Trust/Enrolled/Weeks owners until the system has been implemented and runs for a while. If it appears you'll be able to get some good usage out of the new system, then enroll and test drive it. If it works, great. If it doesn't, then just don't pay the annual fee next time it's due and continue on with the Weeks system as it exists now (not as it existed prior to June 20th, remember.) But it's too soon yet for any of us to be absolutely positively 100% surebet certain that whatever decision we make today will be the correct one two years from now.

And also like Whirl said, you're doing a great job gathering info from your guru and posting it to TUG so that we can all think. Thank you.

 

[Fredm]

good morning all...


Pool #1 consists of points generated from all of the "deeds" placed in the trust on 6/20/10 + points generated from 'deeds" on newly acquired properties or resorts.

Pool #2 consists of points that enrolled or non enrolled legacy owners convert to MR points, points from units that enrolled owners convert to Destination Club points and points generated from units that are in delinquencies...

on the opening day of trading (7/26) Trust owners (new points purchasers) have access to BOTH pools #1 and #2, Exchange owners (legacy owners that have enrolled and converted to points) have access to only Pool #2.

Here is where it gets tricky!!! If and ONLY if a Trust owner grabs a reservation from Pool #2, then a reservation becomes available to an Exchange owner from Pool #1. Legacy point users have to wait until Trust owners make moves before Legacy point users get access to Trust inventory...

In English, at first Legacy owners using points only have access to units turned in by other owners for DC or MR points or delinquencies. Trust owners have access to ALL inventory in POINTS (pools 1 and 2)

Legacy owners are joining an EXCHANGE system.
Not buying the trust.

You don't expect to have the same advantage as a home resort owner when you make an I.I. exchange request. This is no different. Someone must deposit what you want to fill the exchange request.

The trust at large is the "home resort" of trust owners.
If they fill an exchange request with weeks inventory, an exchange member has access to the trust inventory.

Want to be a trust owner? It costs $10/point.

Want the added flexibility and potential fee savings of the new exchange? $695, without surrendering existing functionality.

Like what you have always enjoyed. $0.

Personally, I will take the $0 option. But to each their own.

 

[siberiavol]

While I am sure there will be more than enough opportunities for "I told you so's" in the next few months, I am skeptical this is one of them.

What you describe is so bad that I am just speechless... In fact, I'd venture to say it's more likely that your guru is wrong rather than this being correct. Otherwise, the points system is truly pointless (pun intended).

I with you on this Dan. If NONE of the new resorts are available to enrolled owners immediately then people looking on the calendar on July 26 will see virtually nothing as many enrolled owners have made no or limited deposits at this point in time. I doubt even Marriott would be unaware of the negative consequences to the new program moving forward.

I think we will see trust properties from day one. Truthfully Marriott can't sell enough new points to dent their inventory for a long time. They won't let their properties sit empty.

 

[SueDonJ]

Actually Sue, I think the problems here are that

1. Getting complete and accurate information with which to analyze the new system has been like peeling an onion, and

2. given the first impression the skim sends most people, they expect the worst.

Those issues and their effect on customer attitudes rest squarely on Marriott's doorstep.

This is the one area where I am in complete agreement with every other TUGger - Marriott should have expected an onslaught of questions pertaining to every aspect of enrollment in this new system from educated, savvy owners, and should have prepared a dedicated, select group of reps to deal with every question in a uniform manner. ALL other Marriott reps, including the sales reps who apparently have only been trained on selling new Points and NOT on enrolling Weeks owners, who were contacted with questions should have been ordered to transfer enrollment-related calls to one of those dedicated reps in order to stop all the misinformation and prevent all this nonsense.

I understand why they released the legal documents first, why the website doesn't contain much more than "Hey! An enhancement for you!" gibberish, why every owner wasn't contacted immediately - if all owners were notified on Day One with information overload, then the amount of immediate calls would have crippled Marriott's call-center system to the point where no one could get any answers. But I completely agree that the way they're allowing information to be gleaned now is not helping them any because too many of their reps are providing misinformation, and that naturally causes suspicion and doubt of even the correct information.

 

[SueDonJ]

I with you on this Dan. If NONE of the new resorts are available to enrolled owners immediately then people looking on the calendar on July 26 will see virtually nothing as many enrolled owners have made no or limited deposits at this point in time. I doubt even Marriott would be unaware of the negative consequences to the new program moving forward.

I think we will see trust properties from day one. Truthfully Marriott can't sell enough new points to dent their inventory for a long time. They won't let their properties sit empty.

I don't know. I think it's quite possible that Puck's guru is correct here and the Trust owners will have access to Trust inventory that Legacy owners may not. But in addition to the fact that Trust owners will open up that access to Legacy owners each and every time they reserve a Legacy interval, aren't we forgetting that Marriott holds developer inventory still which has not been conveyed to the Trust? Where does that inventory fit, which pool is it in?

 

[Beverley]

HOWEVER, the new tidbit, which I either didn't comprehend before or which was never presented before here, is this: if you are weeks owner and you enroll, then you convert one or more weeks to points, you may redeem those points ONLY for the following: anything in the World Vacation Collection (like cruises and tours), and locations related to points deposited in the "points inventory bucket" by other weeks owners.

In other words, you will NOT have access to the "weeks" in the points inventory which came from the trust, like unsold weeks from Marco Island and Oceana Plams, and, of course, Kauai Lagoons and any other resorts yet to be built. To get access to those resorts, you have to a buy a minimal number of points (currently 1000). Then your points from any converted weeks can be redeemed for any resorts in the points inventory bucket.

Are you about this or could it be "salesman hype" as we were told differently from our destinations club rep. We were told that the points bucket would have in it points from unsold inventory, inventory deposited by owners for points, inventory from weeks exchanged for Marriott Reward points, and even points from weeks currently in unsold resale inventory. I can not see this system working if it depended only on the points from owners that converted their weeks. At least, not at first. After it gets off the ground it is likely their will be less unsold inventory (just as happened with weeks resorts as they sold out trades became very difficult without those developer weeks dropped into II), however, there will be many more points owners looking to use their points in different ways (such as cruises, air, etc).

Beverley

 

[siberiavol]

We might be forgetting that Marriott Corp probably still owns 95% of trust at this point in time. They have the same right to turn in a week into new program as an enrolled member. Marriott as an owner has to do something with those weeks. They are not going to sit on them waiting for the 5% of the trust owners who are new point buyers to make up their mind on what they want.

They will wear their owner hat and deposit into points pool as requests come in. I had assumed they would be most of their inventory but I can't see it being none of their inventory. The likely worst case is they release it more gradually to give new point buyers a better opportunity to see trust properties.

 

[SueDonJ]

We might be forgetting that Marriott Corp probably still owns 95% of trust at this point in time. They have the same right to turn in a week into new program as an enrolled member. Marriott as an owner has to do something with those weeks. They are not going to sit on them waiting for the 5% of the trust owners who are new point buyers to make up their mind on what they want.

They will wear their owner hat and deposit into points pool as requests come in. I had assumed they would be most of their inventory but I can't see it being none of their inventory. The likely worst case is they release it more gradually to give new point buyers a better opportunity to see trust properties.

Ah, another good point.

 

[tlwmkw]

If this is true then it is really a slap in the face for all of us who bought from Marriott in the past. People have talked about the removal of the dreaded "R" from resale weeks but now I guess all of the legacy owners will have an "L" or "E" for legacy or enrollee and it won't matter if you bought resale or direct- we'll all be the new second class. And they expect folks to trust them with purchasing the new points? My fear now is that in a few years they'll rework the system and the points will become the second class system and whatever "new flavor" is popular in TS'ing and will make them more $$$ will become the new first class. If this is true Marriott is really hurting themselves with all the old owners who have been loyal to them. Perhaps the Marriott people need to visit the Disney institute and learn about customer relations creating good-will and future sales/stable business. This is all about making $$$ in the short term with no regard for the future. Not a good plan in the hotel business.

Hopefully this isn't true and my rant was all for nothing. We shall see. When we went to the sales presentation they told us that "points are points" and that whatever is available in the trust is available to all.

tlwmkw

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning....

my pleasure to get info and post it. When I first heard about this it sounded so "cooky" that I could not post until I had double and triple confirmation. Then I saw Tiel's post #16 ( a completely independent source). At this time I realized that two Tuggers could not independently come up with this, thus I pushed on to get confirmation...

I don't mind playing by any game as long as I know the rules. Can any other TUGGER out there review the documents and lead me to the part where it even remotely hints or implies that Legacy "points" are less valuable than trust "points". This system was sold as the "best of all worlds". For legacy owners it is actually the worst of both worlds. II inventory by definition has to diminish from current levels (as unsold units now goes to trust in contrast to rental, getaways or II exchange and MVCD is now an exchange competitor) and the legacy points game plays second "fiddle" to trust owners.

Tuggers are very smart and play every angle. In all of the speculation thread (all 2700) posts even Perry never even considered this!!!!

I would not have minded If I was given the option of returning my deeds to the trust and becoming a "trust" player with my allotted points (with or without the skim).

For some of you TUGGERS (dougp) that have been through a system where weeks were converted to points I ask this??? Were your converted points less valuable than newly purchased points???