PA state troopers called - vacation home trashed [merged]

[Kay H]

When one of my sons was 15, he and some older boys did some malicious damage at a neighborhood swim club. They pushed a soda machine into the pool when the pool was ice covered. The parents were billed for the monetary damages.

My son, being only 15, did not have a job. My husband hired him to sweep floors and do cleaning at his place of business. He paid my son and my son had to ride his bike weekly to the pool's president's house and personally pay him his share. It broke my heart to see my son being so embarrassed and the president of the pool expressed the same sentiments.

All the other parents paid the debt for their sons, It was over $100 for each boy involved.

I think my son learned a big lesson because he was held responsible for his actions.

I think the other boys learned that their parents would pay their debt. I think there should always be consequences for behavior, whether good or bad.

 

[presley]

I think my son learned a big lesson because he was held responsible for his actions.

I think the other boys learned that their parents would pay their debt. I think there should always be consequences for behavior, whether good or bad.

You are so right. I know adults who still behave without any conscience because their parents (often still) will get them out of whatever stupid things they have done. It never stops if they never have any consequences.

 

[SOS8260456]

there is a common theme here, "if the kids haven't been in trouble before, why screw up their futures over one mistake?"

but it wasn't ONE mistake, it was repeating teh same one over and over. They didn't go to the house one time and trash it, they made it a habit. If it were One and Done I would be more lenient. If they admitted the mistake, had contacted the owner, offered cleanup, apologized all over themselves, etc., I would be more lenient. This is a pattern of wrongdoing, not just one stupid decision.

To me, this is a significant aggravating factor that their age and clean records cannot mitigate. Either they didn't know or didn't care that what they were doing was wrong, since they continued to do it.

Getting As in school or being a good athlete has nothing to do with any of it because this was Repeated Criminal Behavior.

I totally agree with you. There was NO remorse shown and it was done more than once and would probably have continued if they hadn't gotten caught.

As far as losing the scholarship, she should lose out more. Someone else didn't receive a scholarship because she was selected. She should be held to a higher standard.

I have a 17 year old and an 18 year old and I would never want to see their lifes ruined because of one stupid mistake. However, I am constantly drilling into their brains how a stupid mistake can ruin their lives or someone elses. If my kids were involved in something like this, I would hope that they would take responsibility for their actions and cooperate with the authorities, not hide behind their parents. I also hope that I would have the courage to make sure they did the right thing even knowing what the possible consequences might be, ie loss of scholarship, jail time, etc

The fact that this was done multiple times makes it 100 times worse. I also understand about peer pressure, but one of them could have discreetly told their parents who could have discreetly put the bug in the ear of the right people who could have been on the look out for the behaviour and easily caught them in the act.

I hope that it is resolved in a way that can bring Viv some closure on the situation also. But I think it is very difficult to have closure or forgive something when sincere apologies or attempts to fix the damage have not been made.

 

[ace2000]

First my sympathies go to the OP. I'm sorry to hear about this dilemma. You did nothing wrong and your home is trashed. I'd be furious.

You're asking us for opinions on the punishment for the teenage vandals... who are you talking about? The ones that did the actual damage? If this was a party house, then I'd think it would be difficult to prove who did what. However, someone struck first, and probably opened the house up. And then you could probably prove who it was that started inviting the others to come to the house. Beyond that, it will be difficult to pin punishment down to who did what specific damage. I would think anyways, unless some of the kids turned on the others.

However, you said some of the parents are willing to pay. I'd be curious to know more about that. Did they all get together and work it out? You also seem to have some of the names. Who are they? Do the police know for sure that they did some of the damage?

And then you get to the ones that only came to party, but did no damage. What punishment do they deserve? It will be an interesting situation to watch, and I'd bet the local newspapers would love to get the details of this story.

 

[DebBrown]

I have 4 kids who have gotten themselves in various degrees of trouble at that age and they have had to pay the penalty. It is hard but a fact of life. I don't think there is any reason for leniency based on scholarships or school records. With the amount of damage, there is no way anyone can call this an accident.

People survive felony convictions. They don't get to join the CIA but they do survive, go to college and live productive lives. Sometimes it is even a wake up call and shapes their lives in a positive way.

ETA: I just asked my 23yo son his opinion. He agrees that a conviction is justified but stressed that jail time will do no one any good. I tend to agree about the jail time. Probation, restitution and community service are certainly in order.

Deb

 

[ace2000]

You also seem to have some of the names. Who are they? Do the police know for sure that they did some of the damage?

LOL - I should clarify... when I asked who are they, I meant were they the ones that did actual damages or were they ones that just came to the house.

I wasn't expecting you to divulge real names.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

This is a tough one. You apparently know these people and we don't.


First : Will society be served by their imprisonment? Not likely.

Will jail rehabilitate these kids? Absolutely not. It will make them worse. I have seen this firsthand many times.

Will others be deterred by their jailtime. Highly doubtful but remotely possible. Stupid vandalism can happen at any time. People don't think about the consequences and are highly unlikely to think about the consequences because someone they knew or read about went to jail. Most people don't think they will get caught in the first place.

Second: As the victim will you be served by their imprisonment? Perhaps.

Are you more concerned about punishment or payment? Would their imprisonment make you feel better even if it delays or totally prevents full payment? Would you be satisifed with only full financial restitution? These are questions that only you can answer.

 

[geekette]

LOL - I should clarify... when I asked who are they, I meant were they the ones that did actual damages or were they ones that just came to the house.

I wasn't expecting you to divulge real names.

But if I told you that it was Ride, that'd be close enuf, right?

 

[Elan]

I think hundreds of hours of community service is the best punishment. There's nothing like hours of menial tasks to allow one to contemplate their choices in life. Now preferably, they'd be forced to listen to show tunes while they did their community service, but that would likely be considered cruelty.

 

[VivianLynne]

The troopers have some names and pretty firm evidence - like receipts of stuff in the place with credit card info and eyewitnesses of persons leaving the house with their car license tags.

And again, I don't live in the area, am 1 of 2 persons who are original buyers (37 years ago), and the parents of these teens are perhaps 15-25 years younger than me. When I finished building my house, I was the 3rd completed house; there are still empty/unbuilt 1+ acre lots (above my house and one below & across the street PLUS other lots). I really could not pick out any of the kids as the association SOLD the pool with its lot 15+ years ago.

Besides, if you went to a party and the house was trashed, how fast would YOU get out of there? These kids know by the time they are driving WHO lives where. I bet it was a THRILL to punch out of walls, smash furniture, throw paint everywheres and break up dishes & things --- the forbidden fruit.

 

[pjrose]

After reading all the responses and learning more details, I'm feeling a bit tougher. I had missed that this wasn't a one-time have a wild party and trash the house thing. The paint - BRINGING the paint and deliberately pouring it into electronics - that is premeditated, and that's really really nasty and vicious. That's not let's have a party and it gets out of hand.

I believe it was Jim who said that jail would be an alternative if they don't serve the probation/service/etc of the ARD that they will likely get. I agree with that.

You first posted this in early March. Hasn't it hit the paper? If not, why not? It's not just a wild party that got out of hand.

Everyone is right that the vandals, not their parents, should be responsible for the costs. And if the insurance company pays you, then I certainly hope they are responsible for reimbursing the insurance company. Why should the insurance company let them off the hook? And why should your - and my - rates be higher because of a criminal act?

There have been several instances where DD's actions resulted in costs - for example, totaling my car - an irreplaceable collectible car - without drivers license, and the car was not insured for collision (because we didn't drive it), at other times a window and some other things broken in fits of anger.

Yes, I paid for the broken things and took the hit for the car. The agreement has always been that once she is working she owes me the money back. She knows this, but in reality, she got away with me covering it and didn't feel the immediate consequences.

The example of the soda machine pushed into the pool made me realize that I blew it there. I SHOULD have made her do chores or other work and had her pay off her debt that way. Will she eventually pay me back? I don't know. Will I take her "bill" off of her part of the inheritance? I don't know.

None of this is really your choice, it'll be up to the DA and judge and the defense lawyers, but I really would retain an attorney or look for a victim advocate (the county likely has a brochure about victims' rights and services). Be sure it isn't just your lone voice out there. And keep track of every hour spent with paperwork, phone calls, seeking advice, etc, because you should be paid back for those hours too.

 

[ace2000]

It looks like the OP started the thread today. If the insurance company has to pay, there will probably be no doubt the kids would be prosecuted. If the kid's parents pay, then I would assume the OP could refuse to press charges. Also, if the OP allows the parents to pay up, would she be guaranteed it would all work out?

I think that's what's up in the air here. The story is interesting and I appreciate being able to hear it. I wish her luck in getting it all undone.

 

[pianodinosaur]

Added thought -

in my mind the fact that they might have scholarships and all of that is totally irrelevant. I think that punishment should be the same whether you are a rich kid from a wealthy family with a "bright" future or a poor kid who grew up on the wrong side of town with little or no "prospects".

Justice should be blind. Class distinctions don't belong in the courtroom.

"Justice, Justice shall you pursue." ---G-d

Our friendly neighborhood caveman sounds just like a scholar who has read and understood the Bible.

Unfortunately, justice and our legal system sometimes have very little to do with each other.

"..the punishment fit the crime." --- Gilbert & Sullivan, The Mikado

 

[pjrose]

It looks like the OP started the thread today. . . . .

The original thread on this, vacation home trashed, was started March 4
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351
so this has been going on almost three months. Did it hit the papers at the time?

 

[pianodinosaur]

My office building was vandalized in 2010 by copper thieves. I had to shut down my office and my tennants office for several days while getting the repairs. The damage cost of repairs was about $12,000. My insurance deductable was $10,000.

This degree of damage was not in the same category as what you have suffered but it severely impacted my ability to earn a living and my tenants ability to earn a living. Last year a married couple was found electrocuted while trying to steal copper in the Houston area. The husband was dead and the wife had to be hospitalized. They had two small children with them in their pick up truck. I do not know if they are the thieves who vandalized my property or not. However, I do not feel sorry for them. I do feel sorry for their children.

 

[ace2000]

The original thread on this, vacation home trashed, was started March 4
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351
so this has been going on almost three months. Did it hit the papers at the time?

Thanks PJ! I remember reading that other thread, but didn't know they were the same incident.

 

[siesta]

My office building was vandalized in 2010 by copper thieves. I had to shut down my office and my tennants office for several days while getting the repairs. The damage cost of repairs was about $12,000. My insurance deductable was $10,000.

This degree of damage was not in the same category as what you have suffered but it severely impacted my ability to earn a living and my tenants ability to earn a living. Last year a married couple was found electrocuted while trying to steal copper in the Houston area. The husband was dead and the wife had to be hospitalized. They had two small children with them in their pick up truck. I do not know if they are the thieves who vandalized my property or not. However, I do not feel sorry for them. I do feel sorry for their children.

there is a big difference between kids being vandals, and professionals stealing a valuable and marketable metal. Felony vandalism and Felony grand larceny should be (and often is) treated very differently, even if for the same $$ value.

 

[PStreet1]

In my opinion, kids who are vandals do not belong in the same category as "good kids who made a mistake." Vandalism is a conscious act that every participant knows is wrong. It's not really an emotional issue--except for the sheep-like following of someone else, but it's hardly emotional unless it stems from hatred, which this one didn't.

I'd prosecute to the full extent of the law.

 

[Jaybee]

Steve, you always say things so succinctly. I agree with you. Well spoken...again. "That's the price we pay for the things we do." (Or, it SHOULD be the price we pay.)

 

[csxjohn]

Guilty until proven innocent

State Police. I now have the Criminal Investigation Unit trooper.

If the State Police can place a suspect at the house and that suspect won't divulge who did the damage, I'd have to say that suspect did the damage.

I'd bet that if that person was threatened with being prosecuted she/he would finger the real culprits.

Of Course we're talking about Pa where Big Ben bought his way out of prosecution and the fiasco at Penn state recently. So I'm not convinced the Pa state police are interested in justice.

 

[Pat H]

Of Course we're talking about Pa where Big Ben bought his way out of prosecution and the fiasco at Penn state recently. So I'm not convinced the Pa state police are interested in justice.

I spent 23 yrs working with all levels of PA Law Enforcement. That's a ridiculous statement to make.

 

[csxjohn]

You are right,

I spent 23 yrs working with all levels of PA Law Enforcement. That's a ridiculous statement to make.

I apologize to all the hard working law enforcement people who have a very hard job.

When national news stories seem to infer the short comings of a few individuals, human nature links them to other, similar stories.

When I read this story and the original thread I kept wondering how this could be a problem when they can place an individual in the damaged house. Then my mind went back to the Penn State investigation where the news reports made me think that the State Police were trying to protect well connected people.

It was ridiculous on my part to make this statement since I don't know the facts in any of these cases. But this is how people's opinions are made.

I hope I am wrong in making these assumptions and will be more careful in the future.

Thanks for pointing it out to me.

 

[Mosca]

In PA, the perception of the state police is generally a very good one. They aren't a bunch of cowboys. They are highly trained and tend to follow the book.

 

[VivianLynne]

Monday starts the 4th full (5 work day) travel week to the vacation house. 6AM is pickup the tools and start the 2hr 15 min ride. I have had 4 other 2+ overnight stays up there and 2 run up & back in a day trips.

Goal is to finish the bathroom; set some of the kitchen cabinets (if they have arrived) and if no cabinets, go to staining doors and trim.

Still have a pile of paperwork to complete for the insurance company.

PS ... Thanks to everyone's input on their opinion's of punishment options for the teenagers. It was great to read that my anger is not wrong but is part of the grieving process and coping process. If I have to write or speak about HOW this has effected me, I want to communicate clearly and effectively. Lots of very good comments and personal experiences. So multiple THANK YOU's...

 

[pjrose]

. . .

Goal is to finish the bathroom; set some of the kitchen cabinets (if they have arrived) and if no cabinets, go to staining doors and trim.

Still have a pile of paperwork to complete for the insurance company.

. . .

I think I must have missed that you are doing the physical labor. THAT should be done by certain teenagers, though I dunno that I'd want them in or near my house or sight.

I hope you are keeping track of those hours and listing them @ the prevailing rate for carpentry etc! Our do-it-all handyman gets $30/hour.