PA state troopers called - vacation home trashed [merged]

[am1]

Jail, maximum time allowed. No sealing of records. But I do not believe that should ever be the case.

Id also require all inmates to pay their way through jail so they are not a burden on society. To me not putting people in jail because it costs money is a backwards way of thinking.

If they only get a slap on the wrist then others will follow.

 

[dwojo]

If you feel forgiveness is the best route explore the options. Talk to a prosecutor or the police and see what they think. Reducing the charges to a misdemeanor with a long probation along with restitution and making them do a lot of community service(several hundred hours a piece) in a homeless shelter might work. Making things to easy for these kids will enable them and cause someone heartache at a later date.

 

[ronparise]

at first I couldnt figure out why you are so angry. But after reading the posts I guess the assumption is that its your house and your property.. In that case Id be angry too

My first question is: Why?...why did it happen? and why did they pick on you? Was it a random thing or were you the was the target. Nit that it makes any difference when it comes to punishment...but I am curious


I find it hard to imagine that its going to take $45000 to repair a 850 sq ft house. It might be cheaper to just tear it down and rebuild for that kind of money.. which brings me to my second question...what does your insurance company say. Do they come to the same numbers that you do? Again...not really important when it comes to punishment but it seems to me its the insurance company that will be spending the money to repair the damage and your stuff, and restitution is their concern, not yours....after all thats why you have been paying premiums all these years...so someone elas can take that risk

To me there are two issues, restitution and punishment.both ought to be decided by the courts, not you or us on TUG. and if you were insured, you dont have to worry about fighting these kids, their parents or the courts...your insurance company ought to take care of that....


This to me was a crime against property and community.. If I was the judge Id be looking at restitution, and community service.....at $10 an hour, and 4 kids It will take something like a year to raise the money. College may have to be postponed.

 

[csxjohn]

I truly do NOT know who these suspects are - I have no names or addresses (but one lives around the cornor from my house). There are currently 4 persons who are "persons of interest" - 2 who are 18, several who are girls. One or more who have sports scholarships for college and are going away from home for college this Fall.

I am so angry about the issue that I don't want it to color what a prudent person would feel is a "fair and reasonable" punishment.

Yes, I am familiar with Pre-trial Invention to avoid a Felon record. I am also familiar with spoiled, bored teenagers who believe they are "special". As it seems that there are lawyers involved for all, these spin doctors are keeping the suspects from talking .... but there an eye witness with license tag, physical ATM card resceipts found in my house, and admitances of "Yes, I was there but no damage was done by ME".

Damage will be close to $45,000 for the house and $35,000 for the soft-goods inside, plus or minus 15% for an 864 sq ft furnished house.

My question is: What are your "unemotionally involved" opinions on punishments?

Is there any hint of a cover-up as far as you can tell?

If the perpetrators are well connected in the community you may have problems even if you bring a civil action against them for damages.

This needs to be made public in the community.

 

[vacationhopeful]

I would be so royally out to mess with these punks. For the cop to tell you that one of the kids has a sports scholarship for college in the Fall, I would have ask "for Fall 2013 or Fall 2014?".

What RIGHT do they have to continue with their little world while YOU have to re-build your house, deal with the insurance paperwork, months of YOUR LIFE with stress, their court procedings, and the EXPENSE of things NOT covered. How long will or IF you will have recover most of your expenses?

And you will never get the months of your life back.

Why should their world be continuing, according to their plan of college in the Fall? Or their parents' plan, of scholarships to pay for college and laurels & praises at graduation?

 

[VivianLynne]

Is there any hint of a cover-up as far as you can tell?

If the perpetrators are well connected in the community you may have problems even if you bring a civil action against them for damages.

This needs to be made public in the community.

One of the females appears to be a soccer star with a college scholarship happening in the Fall. As the HS team won several games in the post Spring season state level of play, she/they would be little Princess at the school.

Can you see the graduation ceremony with cheers as she gets her diploma?

 

[Conan]

There should be criminal charges against them - - if anybody asks if you want to prosecute that's not really the right question. The State prosecutes, all you need to do is cooperate.

At a later stage, the prosecutor may offer them a chance to accept accelerated rehabilitation (or whatever it might be called in your state) where they'll be allowed to accept probation and if they stay out of trouble for a year or two their record will disappear. There you may be asked if you have any objection to their getting this benefit. Your answer then is you won't object if they/their parents accept responsibility and agree to pay you $___ for the damage they did.

 

[VivianLynne]

at first I couldnt figure out why you are so angry. But after reading the posts I guess the assumption is that its your house and your property.. In that case Id be angry too It is the level of total damage - everything and vicious - furniture reduced to rubble, paint poured into electronics (paint that they brought), every door, almost every dish smashed off the fireplace, and every picture broken, thrown outside or vanished.

My first question is: Why?...why did it happen? and why did they pick on you? Was it a random thing or were you the was the target. Nit that it makes any difference when it comes to punishment...but I am curious I have owned the house longer than almost everyone else in the community and I do not live there. I go up for a day here or there - but it is MY house and it is maintained.


I find it hard to imagine that its going to take $45000 to repair a 850 sq ft house. It might be cheaper to just tear it down and rebuild for that kind of money.. which brings me to my second question...what does your insurance company say. Do they come to the same numbers that you do? There first check OFFER to me was $21,000 for the physical house damage. They are waiting for the detail list of personal prosessions which includes all furniture and decor. Then, there will be the Replacement value check after I submit ALL the receipts to them.Again...not really important when it comes to punishment but it seems to me its the insurance company that will be spending the money to repair the damage and your stuff, and restitution is their concern, not yours....after all thats why you have been paying premiums all these years...so someone elas can take that risk I do not have the "can't live here rider - those expenses are one; pain and suffering is the other; look at the paperwork time required. I still work, have missed a vacation and will have to cut another one short.

To me there are two issues, restitution and punishment.both ought to be decided by the courts, not you or us on TUG. and if you were insured, you dont have to worry about fighting these kids, their parents or the courts...your insurance company ought to take care of that....To a degree, but not all.


This to me was a crime against property and community.. If I was the judge Id be looking at restitution, and community service.....at $10 an hour, and 4 kids It will take something like a year to raise the money. College may have to be postponed.

College is a priviledge IMHO. The trooper implied that the parents would pay the costs. But I don't think they understand that THEIR INSURANCE WILL NOT COVER this for them.

This house was used for several months as a party house. The electric company had changed the format of the bills in the same period where the actually USAGE is buried on the rear of the 2nd page. I have a budget plan for 25+ years and they put the budget bill as the usage and they what you paid. After the state police got involved, the electric usage was high enough to trigger a recalulation of the budget. Even the usage graphic format changed from rotating the last reading as the end of the graph to be in the 1-12 month's position verses the 13 month rolling chart. Also, the changed the colors of the graph. If I uploaded the prior electric bill format and the NEW format, you would be scratching your head - it is triple the number of print, smaller print, totally changed in content and format. I had to LOOK for the budget amount and send off the payment. Plus, the bill was about $950 HIGHER over prior usage. Plus, the electric meter (a read every month meter) is located just 15 feet from their stash of trash as in beer bottles and pizza boxes --- like that was NEVER notice either with the broken window right there?

 

[LUVourMarriotts]

I would first find out what exactly your insurance company is doing for you, legally. And how they are requesting retribution. Based on that answer, I would get your own attorney to make sure you don't get screwed by some legal situation that you may not fully understand. I would then demand that the accused pay for your legal fees.

As far as punishment, I think all you can really do is ask for a certain punishment, and the court will decide. I would ask for the maximum punishment enforceable by the law, since the accused may not get that, but hopefully close. I would also ask that the accused be placed on house arrest until any/all hearings are concluded.

It seems you are mostly interested in punishing the soccer star. I don't see the purpose behind that, but if its true, ask for the hearings to start in mid August, when she would have to be at school already, practicing with her team.

 

[Don]

If they are found guilty of a felony the sports scholarships will probably disappear. You should push for their records not to be expunged. Even if they are given a sentence, but allowed parole they won't be able to go very far away because of having to meet with their parole officer. And they will lose many of their civil rights (voting, etc.) They will also find it hard to get good jobs, even if they get a college degree.
Also, make sure that paying for your costs and damages is pat of their parole conditions. If they don't pay, they go to jail for parole violation..

 

[ronparise]

College is a priviledge IMHO. The trooper implied that the parents would pay the costs. But I don't think they understand that THEIR INSURANCE WILL NOT COVER this for them.

This house was used for several months as a party house. The electric company had changed the format of the bills in the same period where the actually USAGE is buried on the rear of the 2nd page. I have a budget plan for 25+ years and they put the budget bill as the usage and they what you paid. After the state police got involved, the electric usage was high enough to trigger a recalulation of the budget. Even the usage graphic format changed from rotating the last reading as the end of the graph to be in the 1-12 month's position verses the 13 month rolling chart. Also, the changed the colors of the graph. If I uploaded the prior electric bill format and the NEW format, you would be scratching your head - it is triple the number of print, smaller print, totally changed in content and format. I had to LOOK for the budget amount and send off the payment. Plus, the bill was about $950 HIGHER over prior usage. Plus, the electric meter (a read every month meter) is located just 15 feet from their stash of trash as in beer bottles and pizza boxes --- like that was NEVER notice either with the broken window right there?

So it is your house, thanks for clearing that up for me

And this wasnt a one time thing..The parties have been going on for some time

I dont know what the electric company has to do with this except that it seems you expected the meter reader to be looking out for you (I disagree). It sounds like you had bill after bill that showed unusual useage...I wouldnt have caught it either. but the evidence that something wasnt quite right was right in front of you

Vacant houses are a temptation to the bad guys and I guess teenage party animals...Consider yourself lucky that your insurance company will cover it at all...Many wouldnt

I understand your anger, but thats the one thing that the police, the courts and the insurance companies and all the punishment possible cant do anything about. It sounds like you will carry that anger to your grave over the loss of some stuff...and that you are doing to yourself

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Added thought -

in my mind the fact that they might have scholarships and all of that is totally irrelevant. I think that punishment should be the same whether you are a rich kid from a wealthy family with a "bright" future or a poor kid who grew up on the wrong side of town with little or no "prospects".

Justice should be blind. Class distinctions don't belong in the courtroom.

 

[tlwmkw]

Does this refer to the other thread about a vacation house being trashed? I'm late looking at this and was initially confused about what was going on.

To my mind this cannot be supressed because of the extent of the damages (from a $ amount they can't just slide it under the rug). Also if they are 18 it should go on a permanent record. The problem will be proving that they did it if they have lawyers and are keeping quiet. I don't care if a soccer star has a scholarship- she should still know that what she did was wrong. To me the soccer scholarship is not an issue- she should be punished along with the rest of them.

Make sure there is someone there who is watching out for your interests. If you are out of the area and they are all residents then you may get ignored unless you are there showing your face at all times.

What a horrible situation.

tlwmkw

 

[presley]

If they used it as a regular place to hang out and party, their parents had to have known or suspected. Am I to believe that all of the parents never followed up on where their kids were and what they were doing? I can't accept that.

I know some are adult age, but for those who aren't, I'd go after any type of law that was broken and if need be, go after the parents for neglect.

 

[geekette]

Added thought -

in my mind the fact that they might have scholarships and all of that is totally irrelevant. I think that punishment should be the same whether you are a rich kid from a wealthy family with a "bright" future or a poor kid who grew up on the wrong side of town with little or no "prospects".

Justice should be blind. Class distinctions don't belong in the courtroom.

Agree completely.
---
Another poster thought Viv was looking to specifically punish the soccer star, but that is not the impression I got. What I believe Viv was telling us that Because one of the girls was "a darling" of the community, she thought this could taint the proceedings, and I agree, It Could.
---
Another poster thought parents should have known, etc., but when I was a teen, I can assure you that it was rare that anyone checked up on whether I was really where I said I was. Or they kept quiet about my ... deceptions

Of course, I was never out conducting felonious activity, so my deviation from the stated plan was rather harmless.

My point is that I find it unlikely that parents of seemingly good kids would track them down each time they go out. Doesn't seem reasonable nor feasible. If Suzy Q is an A student, why would SuperMom ever suspect she's out doing bad crap? It's likely that Suzy Q never got anywhere near Mom when she returned home so I can't blame Mom for not knowing Suzy was drunk. I blame Suzy.

Besides, parents have nothing to do with this, tho their wallets could be on the line.

 

[Pat H]

If they are first time offenders, they will most likely get Accelerated Rehabilitative Disposition (ARD). If they complete the program and stay clean for 1-2 yrs, the records can be expunged. I really can't see them going to jail. I am usually the first one to be hard on criminals since I spent 23 yrs doing fraud investigations. In this case, however, I have some mixed emotions. At 18 yrs old, how many people did stupid things that could have ruined their lives forever if they hadn't been lucky or been given a break. Do you really want to take away their futures? The police will know if these kids have been in trouble before so take that into consideration. They might be scared enough to set them straight and will never do something like this again.

The insurance company will give you some of your money and then will go after the kids and their family. You will be sent a victim impact statement in which you should list all of your losses not covered by insurance with documents to back them up. Restitution will be orderd. You might get it all at once or monthly payments.

I lived in the same county where your home is. When my son was a teenager, he put a lot of money into stereo equipment for his car. One night while he was work, three kids in their early teens broke the lock to his trunk and tried to steal the equipment. They were unsuccessful. They got caught because of big mouths. They were arrested. One of the kid's father beat him and I'm sure it wasn't the first time. We knew one of the kids and his whole family. He never got in trouble again. I got small checks for about a year until the damage was covered. Like you, my son and I were very angry. The thing I wanted most was an apology. I finally got one from the family we knew.

The DA will take your sentiments into account when it comes to plea bargaining but frankly, they don't hold a lot of weight especially in case that doesn't involve bodily harm. BTW, is the case being handled by PSP or Pocono Township?

 

[VivianLynne]

...Another poster thought Viv was looking to specifically punish the soccer star, but that is not the impression I got. What I believe Viv was telling us that Because one of the girls was "a darling" of the community, she thought this could taint the proceedings, ....

Yes, exactly.

 

["Roger"]

Added thought -

in my mind the fact that they might have scholarships and all of that is totally irrelevant. I think that punishment should be the same whether you are a rich kid from a wealthy family with a "bright" future or a poor kid who grew up on the wrong side of town with little or no "prospects".

Justice should be blind. Class distinctions don't belong in the courtroom.

I think the point here might be that punishment might not be the same. Five (number made up) kids pay damages and the sixth kid pays damages and loses a college scholarship. (I am not advocating anything here one way or another - just pointing out that justice being the same is not always an easy matter.)

 

[VivianLynne]

..... BTW, is the case being handled by PSP or Pocono Township?

State Police. I now have the Criminal Investigation Unit trooper.

 

[siesta]

IMO: the kids' parents should be held financially responsible, the "adults" in the group should be held financially responsible, they should be given an alternative to a felony conviction as a felony can really screw up their prospects (noone was physically hurt, and they shouldnt have their whole lives screwed up from one bad decision involving property damage, which wasnt even that much. Ive seen Kids that have smashed cars more than the OPs house is worth.) however, there should be a condition of supervision that accompanies any felony diversion program so that any sort of trouble inthe future see's the potential felony charge coming back.

Making these kids convicted felons, stripping them of their rights, and even possibly putting them in jail/prison will not help or rehabilitate them and will not serve society or your community. They should pay in full for their actions, but should have an opportunity for a second chance, to have court ordered counseling (paid by them), mandatory volunteer work/community service, and a trial of supervision to prove they are worth letting the charges go away. This will serve society more then issuing them a DOC # and ruining there prospects for their future and the communities chance to get something productive out of these young and impressionable kids.

 

[Passepartout]

If Suzy Q is an A student, why would SuperMom ever suspect she's out doing bad crap? It's likely that Suzy Q never got anywhere near Mom when she returned home so I can't blame Mom for not knowing Suzy was drunk. I blame Suzy.

Besides, parents have nothing to do with this, tho their wallets could be on the line.

Sure, it's the kids' fault for their doings, but until the kids reach legal adulthood (18 y.o.), the parents are responsible for their behavior whether or not they know what the kids are doing every minute of every day.

Though TUGgers seem to be united that restitution is the first consideration, we seem divided on whether or not additional punishment is warranted. I still come down on a suspended sentence depending on the kids staying out of trouble for a period of time. If they successfully get through school and learn from this transgression, seal the conviction. If individual(s) fall into further criminal or anti-social activity, let the penalty for this vandalism be carried out along with any 'new' penalties they might incur, and this vandalism become part of their lifetime record.

It will be interesting to hear what penalty is meted out.

Jim

 

[geekette]

there is a common theme here, "if the kids haven't been in trouble before, why screw up their futures over one mistake?"

but it wasn't ONE mistake, it was repeating teh same one over and over. They didn't go to the house one time and trash it, they made it a habit. If it were One and Done I would be more lenient. If they admitted the mistake, had contacted the owner, offered cleanup, apologized all over themselves, etc., I would be more lenient. This is a pattern of wrongdoing, not just one stupid decision.

To me, this is a significant aggravating factor that their age and clean records cannot mitigate. Either they didn't know or didn't care that what they were doing was wrong, since they continued to do it.

Getting As in school or being a good athlete has nothing to do with any of it because this was Repeated Criminal Behavior.

 

[geekette]

Sure, it's the kids' fault for their doings, but until the kids reach legal adulthood (18 y.o.), the parents are responsible for their behavior whether or not they know what the kids are doing every minute of every day.

If they are entering college in the fall, I would think they all are over 18 as I was 18 when I started senior year hs.

17 is old enuf to know better, but appreciate the reminder about whose responsibility the actions of a minor end up being.

 

[TUGBrian]

im pretty sure short of murdering someone....any first offense will nearly always get pleaded down (for minors or young adults) in this system.

id think your first and most important goal should be ensuring the house is returned exactly the way it was prior to the event, and that those responsible or their families will be the ones footing the bill for that.

 

[Tia]

I was a parent that occasionally tracked down my kids when got wind of something. Will say found that there are many parents that were not interested in finding out anything, instead preferred to trust their kids words/judgement because as one mother said " all kids do things", or some kids had good grades so that is all that mattered.

Son got a ticket for careless driving at 17. He found out it's on his record still at age 21, tried for a job that involved driving, background check found it. When asked he told potential employer what happened = no job.