NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

[Beverley]

Jim,

FYI
Post # 666 refers to what I was mentioning on the Ocean Point board about needing to vote to continue as a timeshare at some point in the future. This is on deeded resorts not RTU.

Beverley

 

[pipet]

I didn't know GV was a RTU property. Is that for all or just part. From a conversion standpoint, I'd think RTU or leasehold would be easier to convert to a trust than truly deeded properties. For RTU such as DVC, the ownership reverts to the developer and they can do anything they want including resell (timeshares or condo's), tear down, rentals, etc.

FYI - That's an escape clause some states require that allow you to get out of your TS if you want. It's still a deeded resort, but the owners get to vote on what to do with it and whether the MFs are still worth it. Not all states require it but FL is one that does.

 

[Dean]

FYI - That's an escape clause some states require that allow you to get out of your TS if you want. It's still a deeded resort, but the owners get to vote on what to do with it and whether the MFs are still worth it. Not all states require it but FL is one that does.

I've read both statues 718 & 721 in the past and just skimmed 721 and don't recall or see anything in there requiring this issue. It does state that it ALLOWS automatic deletions. For purposes of FL statue 721, I assume that GV itself is filed as a multi site entity due to the phased nature of the resort.

(c) Automatic deletion.--The timeshare instrument may provide that a component site will be automatically deleted upon the expiration of its term in a timeshare plan other than a nonspecific multisite timeshare plan or as otherwise provided in the timeshare instrument. However, the timeshare instrument must also provide that in the event a component site is deleted from the plan in this manner, a sufficient number of purchasers of the plan will also be deleted so as to maintain no greater than a one-to-one use right to use night requirement ratio.

Reviewing 721 I find it interesting that had they charged more than $3K per person to participate the new system itself would have fallen under the rules for multisite timeshares for FL rather than an exchange program. I also found this section interesting.

In furtherance of the provisions of this subsection, the managing entity is authorized to reserve accommodations, in the best interests of the owners as a whole, for the purposes of depositing such reserved use with an affiliated exchange program or renting such reserved accommodations in order to facilitate the use or future use of the accommodations or other benefits made available through the timeshare plan.

 

[Fredm]

What about those resorts that have limited deeds. There is something in our MGV deed about it expiring in 2056 unless extended. I guess at that point though the buildings would just need to be torn down to start all over.

I think this date was included because of the "perpetuities" laws.

Desert Springs, for example, defines the expiration date as the death of the last surviving offspring of Presidents Bush (the first) or Clinton. No joke.

 

[jimf41]

good evening

jim.. thanks for the correction...

yikes...

the first time my guru was incorrect...

sorry for the bad info...

can't slip up for a second around these parts...

Well I'm glad to see that you said she was incorrect. Most folks would say she lied to you. Big difference between being incorrect and lying. For the record all my pencils have erasers.

 

[DanCali]

Well I'm glad to see that you said she was incorrect. Most folks would say she lied to you. Big difference between being incorrect and lying. For the record all my pencils have erasers.

The main difference between being incorrect and lying is whether it is intentional. If you choose to believe that all salespeople (and to a lesser extent VOAs) always misrepresent the product unintentionally when (i) they deal with the the product 12+ hours a day (ii) they probably heard any question you have before (iii) they get a big commission if they close the sale and (iv) their misrepresentations always happen help their case - then you you are of course free to do so. I happen to be much less forgiving on that front, especialy since there is no 365 day return policy if you buy on misleading information...

 

[puckmanfl]

good evening...

My guru and I were discussing my initial requests in the new system. I mentioned FC Spring Break week. She said it would be dicey as it is a fixed week (legacy) and many owners would not give it up!!! She was not trying to sell me anything and I know it was an honest accidental goof..

My guru knows I am maxed out on timeshares (weeks/points) and that I have not purchased since 2005. Despite knowing that with 3 off spring to put through college, my timeshare well has run dry (no more $$$), she continues to go out of her way to provide outstanding customer service. Her integrity is beyond reproach and I consider her to be a valued friend and employee of MVCD...

There are 700,000 weeks in the system amongst 54 resorts with no rhyme or reason as to which are fixed,float,plat or plat plus. I think it is ok, if she missed one!!!

I have no problem,posting the good, bad and ugly of both the new and old system but there is no debate as to the honesty and professionalism of my guru...

 

[DanCali]

puck - I understood jimf41 to be referring to recent comments made here on TUG about salespeople "lying" when trying to close a sale. I replied in those same general terms. If you have a personal relationship with someone knowldgeable who you consider a friend that is obviously a different situation. I am not in that situation as I have not urchased from Marriott, and it didn't seem to me that the people who were misrepresented the truth in various sales pitches had personal relationships with their respective salespeople.

I do believe your "guru" made an honest mistake.

 

[puckmanfl]

good evening...

Thanks for the kind words...

My guru continues to give me honest info, fully knowing it will end up in this forum...

She has never pushed or even asked me to enroll. She has given me the info I needed to make an informed decision including the pros and cons of the new world order...

When I purchased in 2005, she steered me to a LOWER priced combination of weeks that would better suit my needs as an active "trader"!!!

 

[d2r4s]

Marriott Vacation Club purchases

While Marriott is out to convert people to the new points Vacation Club, my expierence in many of my past presentation they have never presurred or giving me bad information.

We just purchased the new system and purchased the additional minumum points to have access to the pool. We were given both options with and with out the extra purchase and it only made sense to have the advantage of the additional exchange opportunities.

We own in points and weeks and have found this to be true of other systems when changing to points as with Diamond resorts, however we are grandfathered to maintain are original holiday weeks and the extra week 53 from our New Years Week.

When we purcahsed into a point system then thats what we did with no extra costs such as our Wyndham points (originally farfield).

I read these comments before purchasing which helped to ask questions and seek the right information, which our counsultant was up front about with no pressure.

One benefit I am looking forward to is taking a low points week and puting into II to see how it will trade, which was suggested by the counsultant, and I will check it out.

John Beyer:whoopie:

 

[DanCali]

One benefit I am looking forward to is taking a low points week and puting into II to see how it will trade, which was suggested by the counsultant, and I will check it out.

John Beyer:whoopie:

Congratulations on your decision and I hope you make the most of your purchase.

I don't mean to put a damper on the "never given me bad information" part of your post but I am not sure it is possible to reserve a week with points and deposit in II... As far as I know, you can either deposit your week at your home resort or deposit points, but you can't just reserve a specific week like Orlando and deposit that week. I could very well be wrong on this, as I have not focused on that aspect of the program.

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning

John

Have to agree with Dan. Reservations/exchanges made with points (legacy or Trust) cannot be deposited in II. Legacy owners can remain in weeks and make reservations at home resort and deposit in II (as always). Trust owners (new purchasers) deposit points to II and get exchanges with II based on the value of the number of points given to II...

With regards to access to the"pool". Newly purchased trust points have direct access and Legacy points have Exchange access to the pool of trust inventory! Purchasing 1000 (or any #) of Trust points /BI's does NOT convert your legacy points to Trust points.

My experience this weekend shows that Legacy points can access Trust inventory but it is an exchange process , not direct access. It is a subtle, but absolute distinction... There is a good chance when the system matures and there is equilibrium between the inventories that this will appear seamless...but there are two types of points...

 

[NboroGirl]

In case anyone is interested...

Not to beat a dead horse, but this confirms what everyone has been saying about the inventories... in plain-speak English! It comes from an internal Marriott training notice:

Today's Training Topic: Where Does My Inventory Come From - Part 1 of a Series

August 2, 2010

Enrolled Owners do have access to Trust inventory via the Marriott Vacation Club DestinationsT exchange program. Points Owners do have access to inventory from Owners who enroll and elect, also via the Marriott Vacation Club DestinationsT exchange program. Contrary to rumors, Enrolled Owners will also have access to any future inventory that the trust acquires, once again via the exchange program. While it is true that whatever inventory at those resorts is transferred to the trust is made available to Points Owners first (you can think of it as analogous to a home resort priority), it is anticipated that all resorts and all seasons will be available to both Enrolled Owners and Points Owners. Trust inventory becomes available to Enrolled Owners when any Points Owner does one of the following (usage history indicates that about 3 in 4 will choose one of these options):

l Chooses to vacation in the Marriott Vacation Club® Collection using non-Trust inventory via the exchange program

l Chooses a vacation from the Marriott® Collection

l Chooses a vacation from the World Traveler Collection

l Chooses a vacation from the Explorer Collection

When that happens, the Trust exchanges his/her share of the deeded units held by the Trust for the vacation that the Points Owner has selected, which makes those nights available to the exchange service.

Similarly, non-Trust inventory may become available to Points Owners when any Enrolled Owner elects Vacation Club Points or chooses an internal exchange. In addition, unsold inventory is the property of Marriott Vacation Club®, as is the current year usage rights for any inventory that was traded to us for Marriott Rewards® points. If we should choose to do so, it is our option to place that inventory into the internal exchange program, which would also make it available to both Points Owners and Enrolled Owners

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning

Nboro

we are saying exactly the same thing!!!

Legacy access to the trust inventory is thru the Exchange company. Trust points access to trust inventory is direct . I am sure that legacy points will get Trust inventory (did it this weekend). However, the key word in legalese is ANTICIPATED...

 

[BocaBum99]

Not to beat a dead horse, but this confirms what everyone has been saying about the inventories... in plain-speak English! It comes from an internal Marriott training notice:

Today's Training Topic: Where Does My Inventory Come From - Part 1 of a Series

August 2, 2010

Enrolled Owners do have access to Trust inventory via the Marriott Vacation Club DestinationsT exchange program. Points Owners do have access to inventory from Owners who enroll and elect, also via the Marriott Vacation Club DestinationsT exchange program. Contrary to rumors, Enrolled Owners will also have access to any future inventory that the trust acquires, once again via the exchange program. While it is true that whatever inventory at those resorts is transferred to the trust is made available to Points Owners first (you can think of it as analogous to a home resort priority), it is anticipated that all resorts and all seasons will be available to both Enrolled Owners and Points Owners. Trust inventory becomes available to Enrolled Owners when any Points Owner does one of the following (usage history indicates that about 3 in 4 will choose one of these options):

l Chooses to vacation in the Marriott Vacation Club® Collection using non-Trust inventory via the exchange program

l Chooses a vacation from the Marriott® Collection

l Chooses a vacation from the World Traveler Collection

l Chooses a vacation from the Explorer Collection

When that happens, the Trust exchanges his/her share of the deeded units held by the Trust for the vacation that the Points Owner has selected, which makes those nights available to the exchange service.

Similarly, non-Trust inventory may become available to Points Owners when any Enrolled Owner elects Vacation Club Points or chooses an internal exchange. In addition, unsold inventory is the property of Marriott Vacation Club®, as is the current year usage rights for any inventory that was traded to us for Marriott Rewards® points. If we should choose to do so, it is our option to place that inventory into the internal exchange program, which would also make it available to both Points Owners and Enrolled Owners

This is the clearest message from Marriott to date on this topic. It confirms the various inventory pools. And, it illustrates how inventory can cross buckets.

What remains unknown is the algorithm for inventory to cross over. Hopefully, it is NOT manual. That would introduce significant delay in satisfying exchange requests.

I am hoping that Marriott comes up with a reservation system model for BOTH Trust owners AND (a separate one) for enrolled owners. But, I am not holding my breath.

 

[mlwlpt]

Please explain

I own a deeded week at Royal Palms. I have read many of the posts but not all. I am not understanding the term "trust properties vs ??". Could someone explain for me so all the other conversation will make more sense?
Thank you

 

[DanCali]

I own a deeded week at Royal Palms. I have read many of the posts but not all. I am not understanding the term "trust properties vs ??". Could someone explain for me so all the other conversation will make more sense?
Thank you

Try reading post 228:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=950358

 

[SueDonJ]

... Today's Training Topic: Where Does My Inventory Come From - Part 1 of a Series ...

Hmmmmm. THIS sounds very interesting! NboroGirl, how did you get your hands on an internal training memo that puts this in plainspeak?! Nevermind, don't answer if it's going to dry up your source. More importantly, can you get the later ones in the series as they're released? These would make a FANTASTIC addition to Dave's sticky!

 

[5infam]

Wow - Wouldn't this training series have been great BEFORE the product was rolled out???!!!

I like the last line where it says "If we should choose to do so, it is our option to place that inventory into the internal exchange program, which would also make it available to both Points Owners and Enrolled Owners."

I wonder what and how their decisions are based. Assuming they want to make some money on these deals and rent them out for cash, and since Trust owners don't pick their week for deposit - my guess is that it will be very tough for an Exchange member to get a high value week.

 

[jimf41]

This is the clearest message from Marriott to date on this topic. It confirms the various inventory pools. And, it illustrates how inventory can cross buckets.

What remains unknown is the algorithm for inventory to cross over. Hopefully, it is NOT manual. That would introduce significant delay in satisfying exchange requests.

I am hoping that Marriott comes up with a reservation system model for BOTH Trust owners AND (a separate one) for enrolled owners. But, I am not holding my breath.

I also received this message from my contact at MVCI this morning. Until I received it I thought I had a handle on the various pools of inventory. I thought that the trust would contain all the unsold weeks at the 11 trust resorts and any other unsold inventory. This message seems to correct that with this line,

In addition, unsold inventory is the property of Marriott Vacation Club®, as is the current year usage rights for any inventory that was traded to us for Marriott Rewards® points. If we should choose to do so, it is our option to place that inventory into the internal exchange program, which would also make it available to both Points Owners and Enrolled Owners.

If the unsold inventory goes into Marriott's hands to deposit where they want what exactly do the trust owners get in their pool? I was assuming that unsold inventory was automatically in the trust and would have to be transferred or swapped out. It seems to say that initially there won't be many trust owners so the unsold inventory will go to where the most demand is. Initially that has to be the legacy owners requesting reservations using points. I just don't see trust owners coming anywhere near the number of enrolled legacy owners for two or three years and possibly 5-10 years if the economy doesn't make a significant upswing soon.

I do agree that a manual transfer system would not be beneficial to trust or legacy owners.

 

[jimf41]

The main difference between being incorrect and lying is whether it is intentional. If you choose to believe that all salespeople (and to a lesser extent VOAs) always misrepresent the product unintentionally when (i) they deal with the the product 12+ hours a day (ii) they probably heard any question you have before (iii) they get a big commission if they close the sale and (iv) their misrepresentations always happen help their case - then you you are of course free to do so. I happen to be much less forgiving on that front, especialy since there is no 365 day return policy if you buy on misleading information...

Dan,

If they all told the same story (lie) I would agree with you. I've made about a dozen calls and 4 or 5 emails to MVCI so far. None of these folks says what another one says. To me that's misinformation caused by an incredibly complex system coupled with poor training.

I won't be seeing a rep in person till I go to MPB this Fall. In my former profession I received a significant amount of training in detecting when a person is lying based on their body language. It's pretty interesting and you can GOOGLE it for some basic techniques. I find them very useful when dealing with sales persons. I've caught Marriott folks a couple of times. Specifically when they tell you if you buy resale you don't get a personal VOA. Generally they make this statement in a truthful way but when you question them on it they all start showing indications of making up a whopper to answer the question.

 

[PHILIPC56]

I called II Marriott desk and was told that II will administer points program.

:whoopie: Marriott II rep. told me that II will continue to provide week for week exchanges but will also administer points program for Marriott! She could not tell me whether II was going to discontinue the week for week exchanges. I don't know what to expect. Does anybody know anything about this?

:whoopie:

How could an owner later be pleased that owners had to call marriott employees repeatedly asking questions about inventory and they kept getting different answers? It should be an embarassment for Marriott and it is another slap in the face for owners.

Right now the best we can do is go on the majority rule. The majority of Marriott employees have told the owners who called and inquired that Legacy owners who deposit weeks will not be able to access trust inventory. If that is later proven to be wrong, or if it is in fact correct, the ineptitude of marriott's roll out and the lack of training of it's employees is something that significantly reduces most owner's confidence in Marriott as a well run organization. In addition after not getting a straight answer for weeks at a time, when they finally give a supposedly definitive answer, how can you trust them to not change it later and say oops you were told wrong again?

 

[PHILIPC56]

Why not exchange home resort week with SFX?

SFX may be the alternative if II goes away. Marriott should not have its Vacation Club Member's back to the wall. Why not exchange home resort week through any of the functional exchange companies and not be held hostage to the points system.
I called the manager at Fairway Villas ( my home resort ) and was told if I wanted to exchange my "points" as a "Gold Week" owner for a "Gold Week" at Aruba Surf Club, I wouldn't have enough. Last year, I did that exchange through II with no grief, no aggravation and no headaches or misunderstandings. Now it seems to me that I would not have too many points for my home resort; I would have to buy more points and if I wanted to convert to the points program it would cost me $1,495 as a resale owner.
Does Marriott think, that we are all stupid and don't see through this charade. Thankfully there still may be exchange alternatives.

I think it ends with a Marriott controlled exchange and reservation system. Or, mostly so.

It is a long term business strategy. This is not a short term scheme to sell dog weeks. It took years to plan and begin implementing.
I believe Marriott has concluded that revenue growth from new product sales has plateaued. Mining the owner base is a long term opportunity to generate recurring revenues with high profit margin. I assume they will also capture more inventory for their rental business than previously.

If successful (and I think they will be) at converting legacy owners, then Marriott has a yet longer term objective. Sell vacant hotel rooms as part of its product offering, in a more robust package. No land acquisition /development/ sales cost
(think of the Asia Pacific program for a clue).
That is why, I believe, MRP's are included for all resale legacy owners. I don't know what form this will take, but have heard snippets that suggest it will be a boon for Marriott because it will also be able to guarantee higher occupancy rates when negotiating its operations management contact with hotel owners. This is not just about the Vacation Club. It's about Marriott's entire enterprise.

Marriott has much latitude in creating flexible value for the invested owner. They are just beginning to shape a delivery system to provide it. Whether owners perceive value is another matter.

By retaining the legacy system intact, owners should not feel threatened by the migration. It became a closed system of opportunity as of 6/20/10. Smart move, IMO. No sense in stirring that pot. Marriott has plenty of time to sell them on a new mouse-trap.

 

[DanCali]

SFX may be the alternative if II goes away. Marriott should not have its Vacation Club Member's back to the wall. Why not exchange home resort week through any of the functional exchange companies and not be held hostage to the points system.
I called the manager at Fairway Villas ( my home resort ) and was told if I wanted to exchange my "points" as a "Gold Week" owner for a "Gold Week" at Aruba Surf Club, I wouldn't have enough.

Why do you think II will go away? It's not like Marriott is a credible source on this given their incentives...

As for SFX, there is zero transparency on what goes on there. When SFX lets me request first without paying an annual fee, I will give them a try... I am not giving them my week without an exchange, and I'm not paying them fees just to do request first. They'll get the exchange fee if I get my exchange. Until then, I'll take my chances with II, which is not going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[Fredm]

SFX may be the alternative if II goes away. Marriott should not have its Vacation Club Member's back to the wall. Why not exchange home resort week through any of the functional exchange companies and not be held hostage to the points system.
I called the manager at Fairway Villas ( my home resort ) and was told if I wanted to exchange my "points" as a "Gold Week" owner for a "Gold Week" at Aruba Surf Club, I wouldn't have enough. Last year, I did that exchange through II with no grief, no aggravation and no headaches or misunderstandings. Now it seems to me that I would not have too many points for my home resort; I would have to buy more points and if I wanted to convert to the points program it would cost me $1,495 as a resale owner.
Does Marriott think, that we are all stupid and don't see through this charade. Thankfully there still may be exchange alternatives.

I.I. is not going away.

You can still trade weeks with I.I. Marriott/Marriott or externally.

Using SFX is also an option.