NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

CMF said:

They see us as a tempest in a tea pot - a small tea pot at that.

Charles

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No doubt, in general they think of TUG as a pain in the neck. But my thought is, if ever this tempest develops to the point where a fair number of already-enrolled owners demand their money back after their rescission periods because their exchange opportunities do not materialize as they've been led to believe they will, then this thread with all of its quotes from Marriott employees can serve as proof of the inconsistencies and falsehoods that may substantiate a claim of misrepresentation. It honestly shocks me that Marriott is allowing it to continue.

I can see why Marriott has traditionally ignored the individual posts on TUG claiming, "my sales rep lied to me!" - none of those were collective arguments, no two or more TUG contributors could prove that as a group Marriott sales reps were uninformed about the same aspect of the product. But this thread is different - it's recording completely contradictory answers to the same questions from different people relative to the same system within a limited time. It's mind-boggling, really.

I have been told by more than one person that they are reading and aware of the posts here, so that's not just an assumption.

My assumption is that they are aware of this post in particular too, but don't quite know how to couch the answer. I expect Dave will get a very nice response and, even if it verifies the 3 pool concept, it will talk about how wonderful the opportunities will be for all enrollees because new point owners can access legacy weeks and legacy owners converting to points have not only the trust but whatever crops up into the future at their exchange fingertips. They will paint the picture of one big happy Marirott family, with lots of prime inventory for everyone.

Now, doesn't that make everyone feel better?:rofl:

puckmanfl said:

Good morning

dioxide....

You are 100 % bang on correct with your last two posts. You do have an amazing clarity of vision!!!!

any rep stating that Legacy points= trust points has not had advanced training....

Remember that it took Tuggers 3 weeks to catch this one


I am going to let my guru rest and not push for the answer regarding the purchase of extra trust points and inventory

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I think I can expand further. It is a little more detailed than I first indicated with my scenario.

We really need to think of it in terms of three cookie jars. There is the big kids jar (trust owners), the little kids jar (weeks owners) and mom’s jar (exchange company). The little kids jar is full of cookies with their names on them. The big kids jar has cookies in it with no ones name on them. There are also green marbles. The number of green marbles is equal to the type, size, and quality of the cookies in the big kids jar. There is a can that holds the green marbles (unsold points), but the big kids also hold some marbles (points sold). There are also red marbles. Mom’s jar has red marbles in it equal to the type, size, and quality of the cookies in the little kids jar. There are no cookies in mom’s jar in the beginning.

The little kids can pick from their jar but only the cookies with their names on them. Now if a little kid doesn’t like the cookie with his name on it, he will give it to mom and mom will put it in to her jar (convert to points). Mom will give the little kid red marbles from her jar. The number of red marbles is determined by the quality, size and type of cookie that was put in mom’s jar.

The big kid holding green marbles can use the list to decide what cookie he wants from the big kids jar. He can use his green marbles to take a cookie from the big kids jar. If there are no cookies in the big kid jar that he wants, he can look in mom’s jar also and trade his green marbles for cookies in there also. He takes out the cookie he wants and puts his green marbles in mom’s jar.

The little kid with red marbles can use those marbles for cookies in mom’s jar. If he sees green marbles in moms jar though, he can swap out his red marbles for the green ones and go and use the green marbles to pick a cookie from the big kids jar. Once mom’s jar has no more green marbles in it, the picking from the big kids jar by little kids stops and they can only take cookies from mom’s jar.

Little Kids Jar – Weeks Owners (enrolled or not)
Big Kids Jar – Trust Owners
Red Marbles (Weeks owner points enrolled and converted)
Green Marbles (Trust owner points)

Marriott may also at some time take a bunch of green marbles and put them in to mom's jar. There is an abundance of them in the can. If they do, the little kids can switch out their red marbles for the green Marriott ones and look in the big kids jar. I am willing to bet that while the can is real full of unsold marbles they will do this at the begining of the year. So everyone will be able to get lots of access to the big kids jar. People will see this and think what has been discussed here is untrue, but the system is really just covering for what is really happening.

If this is truly how it works, it is a convoluted smoke and mirrors system. However in the concept of an exchange company, it makes the most sense.

it starts small

DanCali said:

Now that's a post for the sticky area!

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and eventually your opinion can change as well..:ignore:

CMF said:

They see us as a tempest in a tea pot - a small tea pot at that.

Charles

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Just wait until some of the folks who bought points to 'recharge' the ownership find out what they've spent $10k on.

I'm assuming, of course, the worst.

I think the truth lies with the worst case here. The best case (integrated points usage) can sell more points than the worst case (segregated points usage).

No one has a motive to make up the worst case.

Poolside chatter tends to spread news fast, especially news like they sold me points I can't use.

I love cookies - but these cookies don't sound so tasty!

So I have pretty much figured out that the point system costs me too much for the privilege, as I don't own a lock out, and I trade every other year into my home resort - so with skim I am screwed. However, I am one of those folks that is keeping an open mind just in case someone figures out something good here. So one thing I thought of was to use the 800 points if I enroll, next summer at Ko Olina for 2 nights in a 1 bedroom, which would add on to the 14 nights at MOC I already have booked. I previously assumed that there could be lots of ko Olina inventory that was unsold and now part of the Trust, and therefore, my 800 points would be easy to use at Ko Olina.

However, based on what I am reading here, the only way to get that would be if a weeks owner deposits their week for points, or MRP, or through II - then I could possibly grab it. But the points that are part of the Trust, which is what I thought was available to make this happen, is not available to me unless I buy more points??? Do I have that right???

Maybe I should just take my $1,495 and go to Sam's Club and buy a pallet of Tylenol so I can get rid of this headache

lovearuba said:

and eventually your opinion can change as well..:ignore:

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Yeah - I'll open the "DanCali Enrolls" thread for that one...

puckmanfl said:

The only issue with trust points is the CURRENT price

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I think the MF are an issue, too.

DanCali said:

Yeah - I'll open the "DanCali Enrolls" thread for that one...

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Not holding my breath waiting for that thread

good evening

Boca...

after the "skim" I have 13666 with a $.34/pt mf.... I think that Trust points will be so much better than legacy points that even increasing my mf's to $.40/point I would trade my deeds for "trust" points. Please keep in mind that my home resorts are GV and Hawaii. Plenty of trust inventory in these areas, so I don't think Home Resort priority is a big deal and I am getting a bit weary of hawaii...

I am a player/trader 13,666 trust beats the pants of 13666 legacy points to me!!!

With the above mentioned inventory issues...

I truly believe II inventory will also dramatically decrease making week usage less of an option to trade...

I may change my tune after the 7/26 test drive...

will keep you posted...

puckmanfl said:

good evening

Boca...

after the "skim" I have 13666 with a $.34/pt mf.... I think that Trust points will be so much better than legacy points that even increasing my mf's to $.40/point I would trade my deeds for "trust" points. Please keep in mind that my home resorts are GV and Hawaii. Plenty of trust inventory in these areas, so I don't think Home Resort priority is a big deal and I am getting a bit weary of hawaii...

I am a player/trader 13,666 trust beats the pants of 13666 legacy points to me!!!

With the above mentioned inventory issues...

I may change my tune after the 7/26 test drive...

will keep you posted...

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My plans aren't changing with this revelation. I will enroll when the dust settles. I most likely will be able to rent either legacy or Trust points to get what I want. I just don't like that there is so many inventory pools. Makes it harder to build a plan of attack.

I confess: I have not read all of the documents. I am dutifully ashamed of myself.

Now questions for some one that has read the documents:

• What are the provisions for addenda to the contract documents? I am working under the assumption that these restrictions are in writing and not just a matter of poor interpretation.
• Can Marriott easily modify the section of the contract responsible for the resulting points hierarchy? Or have they written themselves into a corner?

Charles

CMF said:

I confess: I have not read all of the documents. I am dutifully ashamed of myself.

Now questions for some one that has read the documents:

• What are the provisions for addenda to the contract documents? I am working under the assumption that these restrictions are in writing and not just a matter of poor interpretation.
• Can Marriott easily modify the section of the contract responsible for the resulting points hierarchy? Or have they written themselves into a corner?

Charles

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My guess is that the structure is due to various state laws, as suggested earlier in the thread.

They can try to paint it as no big deal and take a bunch of green marbles and put them in to mom's jar... But all that does is hide an underlying fundamental issue that will remain there forever.

puckmanfl said:

good evening gblotter...

I disagree moderately...

The trust resorts have some high value joints (koolina, NCV, Marco, kauai lagoons, lakeshore) etc.

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True - some desirable locations are in the trust. I probably didn't use the best language in my previous post to illustrate my point.

For points owners, few reservations will be available at some sold-out resorts (like Waiohai) where little inventory will exist in the trust. For enrolled owners, few reservations will be available at some newer resorts (like Kauai Lagoons) where little inventory will exist outside the trust. The different inventory pools and ownership classifications will result in a reservation process full of frustrated aspirations and customer dissatisfaction. This reality is far from the unrealizable dream that Marriott salespeople are promoting (that the points program will allow you to go anywhere at any time for the right number of points).

puckmanfl said:

The only issue with trust points is the CURRENT price

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The reservation availability issue I'm trying to describe will not be fixed by any adjustment in price.

Isnt a more significant problem that no matter what we are told "officially" either through Dave's channels or through Marriott that the reps are obviously still quite under trained and which could lead to absurd results.

Lets say Dave's person says no this thread is wrong...access is available to the trust for legacy owners......but many reps still think it isnt...what do you think will happen when one calls to reserve. The rep wont even look at that inventory.

A further problem(and no disrespect intended Dave) is that how can anyone take as gospel what Dave's person...or anyone else at Marriott says at this point. That would by its very nature involve "trusting" that the interpretation will be the same throughout. I have reviewed the points "documentation", I have had 3 others do the same. The one thing we all agree on is that for virtually any issue that could possibly be contentious there are numerous interpretations open and throughout the contradictions abound. Quite frankly it is drafted surprisingly poorly and is just the type of contract that courts love to crucify. That said, I dont expect anyone is going to take Marriott to court(at least not yet) so that the only interpretation to much of this that is important is what ends up happening when one joins the program and attempt to utilize it. And for that imho it will take a number of months to sort out.

Luckybee said:

Isnt a more significant problem that no matter what we are told "officially" either through Dave's channels or through Marriott that the reps are obviously still quite under trained and which could lead to absurd results.

Lets say Dave's person says no this thread is wrong...access is available to the trust for legacy owners......but many reps still think it isnt...what do you think will happen when one calls to reserve. The rep wont even look at that inventory.

A further problem(and no disrespect intended Dave) is that how can anyone take as gospel what Dave's person...or anyone else at Marriott says at this point. That would by its very nature involve "trusting" that the interpretation will be the same throughout. I have reviewed the points "documentation", I have had 3 others do the same. The one thing we all agree on is that for virtually any issue that could possibly be contentious there are numerous interpretations open and throughout the contradictions abound. Quite frankly it is drafted surprisingly poorly and is just the type of contract that courts love to crucify. That said, I dont expect anyone is going to take Marriott to court(at least not yet) so that the only interpretation to much of this that is important is what ends up happening when one joins the program and attempt to utilize it. And for that imho it will take a number of months to sort out.

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The written documents are all someone can trust. I just re-read all the documents and their is nothing is writing about any of this being true.

Luckybee said:

Isnt a more significant problem that no matter what we are told "officially" either through Dave's channels or through Marriott that the reps are obviously still quite under trained and which could lead to absurd results.

Lets say Dave's person says no this thread is wrong...access is available to the trust for legacy owners......but many reps still think it isnt...what do you think will happen when one calls to reserve. The rep wont even look at that inventory.

A further problem(and no disrespect intended Dave) is that how can anyone take as gospel what Dave's person...or anyone else at Marriott says at this point. That would by its very nature involve "trusting" that the interpretation will be the same throughout. I have reviewed the points "documentation", I have had 3 others do the same. The one thing we all agree on is that for virtually any issue that could possibly be contentious there are numerous interpretations open and throughout the contradictions abound. Quite frankly it is drafted surprisingly poorly and is just the type of contract that courts love to crucify. That said, I dont expect anyone is going to take Marriott to court(at least not yet) so that the only interpretation to much of this that is important is what ends up happening when one joins the program and attempt to utilize it. And for that imho it will take a number of months to sort out.

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I agree completely, the problem here is that Marriott reps are giving out information that has no substantiation in the governing docs - it doesn't matter if one or more of them have happened to give the correct info in all these contradictory answers, because we have no way to verify what's correct and what isn't.

IMO, that's what makes this particular, "but they told me one thing and now I'm finding another is true!" complaint against Marriott different from all the others. Usually you can look at the docs and find the correct answer (and 9 times out of 10, on TUG that means you end up hating Marriott even more because the docs usually prove them right ) But with this one issue, even if we could make sense of the docs to get at the right answer, we would still be dis-proving something that one Marriott rep has said and proving something said by another at the same time. It's just a total mess.

5infam said:

However, based on what I am reading here, the only way to get that would be if a weeks owner deposits their week for points, or MRP, or through II - then I could possibly grab it. But the points that are part of the Trust, which is what I thought was available to make this happen, is not available to me unless I buy more points??? Do I have that right???

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You will be able to book trust weeks as soon as trust owners grab a enrolled weeks owners inventory from the exchange company. That is as long as you are there soon enough to grab it. Once this gets rolling with hundreds of thousands of deposits, you won't even notice any of this that is happening.

Marriott doesn't get to pick what the trust deposits, the trust deposits points and gets time out. Those points are good for any trust time. Thus my analogy of cookies and marbles.

pfrank4127 said:

The written documents are all someone can trust. I just re-read all the documents and their is nothing is writing about any of this being true.

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It depends which documents you read... see my post #111

good evening..

MVCD could fix this in a heartbeat!!! All inventory that comes from the trust, legacy weeks converted to MR or DC points and delinquencies all go into the Exchange company. To get access to the exchange company you need to either purchase points or convert legacy weeks to points.... Theexchange company can use its inventory to then exchange with II to fulfill unavailable requests for BOTH trust and legacy point players...

with this system
Legacy Points = Trust points....

puckmanfl said:

good evening..

MVCD could fix this in a heartbeat!!! All inventory that comes from the trust, legacy weeks converted to MR or DC points and delinquencies all go into the Exchange company. To get access to the exchange company you need to either purchase points or convert legacy weeks to points.... Theexchange company can use its inventory to then exchange with II to fulfill unavailable requests for BOTH trust and legacy point players...

with this system
Legacy Points = Trust points....

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But then they can't guaranty that all points owners will get something that they own. They all own X points in trust properties. A soon as one night goes to a non trust owner without a like trust night going to weeks owner, they have an imbalance and not all trust owners can now get what they have the right to reserve.

Luckybee said:

A further problem(and no disrespect intended Dave) is that how can anyone take as gospel what Dave's person...or anyone else at Marriott says at this point.

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The problem is that any Marriott representative can say "Yes enrolled weeks owners will have access to trust inventory." This is true. Though there is a BUT in there that they don't need to disclose because to all owners all of this happening behind the scenes will be invisible.

DanCali said:

It depends which documents you read... see my post #111

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Not really sure what you are trying to say in post #111; it seems to me you are pulling things out of context. I copied the entire section not just the snippet from post #111.

II EXERCISE OF MEMBERSHIP PRIVILEGES; MEMBER’S DISTRIBUTION

A. Trust Members. This section only applies to Trust Members. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Trust Member, the Affiliate Program Manager and/or Association of your Affiliate Program must have voluntarily entered into an Affiliation Agreement with Exchange Company, where the Affiliate Program Manager and/or Association is a member of the Program. Trust Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of Membership in the Program. During the term of the Affiliation Agreement, Trust Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of the Program or an Affiliate Program in accordance with these Exchange Procedures. Unless otherwise provided pursuant to the applicable Affiliation Agreement, Trust Members have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program in accordance with that Affiliate Program’s Affiliate Program Reservation System. If a Trust Member desires to use the Special Benefits that may be offered by Exchange Company from time to time, the Trust Member may voluntarily participate in the Program as described in these Exchange Procedures.
Membership in the Program automatically terminates for a given Trust Member if the Trust Member voluntarily or involuntarily transfers the Trust Member’s Interest and owns no other Interest, or if the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program ceases to be affiliated with the Program because such Affiliate Program’s Affiliation Agreement is terminated or is not renewed.

B. Exchange Members. This section only applies to Exchange Members. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as an Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an enrollment agreement with Exchange Company. Exchange Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions for Membership in the Program. During the term of the Exchange Member’s enrollment agreement with Exchange Company and so long as an Exchange Member remains enrolled in the Program, Exchange Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of the Program in accordance with these Exchange Procedures. If an Exchange Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Exchange Member’s
Affiliate Program or access Special Benefits, from time to time, the Exchange Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in the Disclosure Guide and these Exchange Procedures.

Member if the Exchange Member voluntarily or involuntarily transfers the Exchange Member’s Interest and owns no other Interest.

good evening...

If trust owners own in the trust, Why can they dip into the exchange company inventory outside the trust FIRST, and then enabling a exchange company member to take something out of the trust...

It's a game of chicken and trust owners get the first move!!!

anyway you slice the legalese Legacy points < Trust points. This is wrong!!! Especially after the skim!!!

Another fix is for MVCD is to give the opportunity for legacy week owner to do an equity exchange to convert to trust points. The skim could be the fee for this???

At the end of the day Trust owners are real points players and legacy point users are still "exchangers" and get charged 5%-&% in the "skim" for the privilege...

Do you think the sales reps are telling purchasers they only own in 11 resorts, or they own resorts. Keep in mind until 5 days ago, none of us had this figured out either. This wasn't even considered here or in the speculation thread until Tiel's famous post #16....

puckmanfl said:

good evening...

If trust owners own in the trust, Why can they dip into the exchange company inventory outside the trust FIRST, and then enabling a exchange company member to take something out of the trust...

It's a game of chicken and trust owners get the first move!!!

anyway you slice the legalese Legacy points < Trust points. This is wrong!!! Especially after the skim!!!

Another fix is for MVCD is to give the opportunity for legacy week owner to do an equity exchange to convert to trust points. The skim could be the fee for this???

At the end of the day Trust owners are real points players and legacy point users are still "exchangers" and get charged 5%-&% in the "skim" for the privilege...

Do you think the sales reps are telling purchasers they only own in 11 resorts, or they own resorts. Keep in mind until 5 days ago, none of us had this figured out either. This wasn't even considered here or in the speculation thread until Tiel's famous post #16....

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Could you please tell me where in the written documents this is, because I haven't been able to find it in writing.