NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

[gblotter]

Do enrolled weeks owners have EQUAL access to ALL points inventory or not? That's the only thing we want to know and it's the only question that wasn't answered.

The term used in the official response is "owners of the new points product". If you believe that "owners of the new points product" does not include enrolled owners, then I guess one could claim some ambiguity. Otherwise, it seems pretty clear to me.

Legacy weeks owners who do not enroll clearly do not have any claim to the trust inventory. If they get access by some fashion through II trades, then consider themselves lucky.

 

[hipslo]

Exactly, the Marriott Vacations Club Destinations is the exchange company, not the trust.

On a closer reading of marriott's statement, and referring back to the defined terms in the legal documents, I now agree with you. Points are not Points, and enrolled owners who convert to points do not have direct access to trust inventory.

Why couldnt they just "man up" and come out and say that directly, in response to our very pointed questions?

 

[hipslo]

Yes, I think enrolled owners have access to the Trust, but not as a reservation system. They only get access when a trust points owners puts in a request and Marriott needs to pull it (fullfill their request) out of the Weeks Exchange System. So advantage goes to the Trsut Points owner, who gets to see everything first. If it is not in the exchange company, weeks can not access the Trust.

That is how I now read marriott's statement, as well.

 

[gblotter]

On a closer reading of marriott's statement, and referring back to the defined terms in the legal documents, I now agree with you. Points are not Points, and enrolled owners who convert to points do not have direct access to trust inventory.

Why couldnt they just "man up" and come out and say that directly, in response to our very pointed questions?

So you believe that "owners of the new points product" does not include enrolled owners then? I'm not being argumentative - just trying to understand what you see in the language. I don't see it.

 

[tombo]

The term used in the official response is "owners of the new points product". If you believe that "owners of the new points product" does not include enrolled owners, then I guess one could claim some ambiguity. Otherwise, it seems pretty clear to me.

Legacy weeks owners who do not enroll clearly do not have any claim to the trust inventory. If they get access by some fashion through II trades, then consider themselves lucky.

Simple technicality. Owners of the new points product bought points. Legacy weeks owners can convert their weeks to points but they are not buying the new points product which is based on the trust inventory.

If it was true that all points have access to all inventory, why would Marriott not simply state it in their FAQ's or in a newsletter or e-mail to weeks owners? I don't understand any feasible reason Marriott would climb a tree to tell a lie when it would be easier to stand on the ground and tell the truth? The only reason to not specifically answer owners repeated questions is because they know we won't like the real answer.

 

[gblotter]

Simple technicality. Owners of the new points product bought points. Legacy weeks owners can convert their weeks to points but they are not buying the new points product.

So you do not believe that "owners of the new points product" includes enrolled owners who convert their usage to points then?

 

[hipslo]

From the MVCI WEB site:

As of 6/20/2010, there are currently timeshare interests located at 11 resorts owned by the MVC Trust . . . .

As of 6/20/2010, there are currently 53 resorts, including the aforementioned 11 resorts, with timeshare interests available for exchange through the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program . . . .

It is the language "available for exchange" that is the key here. While the resorts at issue may in a hypothectical sense be "available" through the exchange program, no one can "exchange" into any given inventory unless and until the inventory has been deposited to the exchange company. That is how exchange companies work. Its just like II saying that interests in thousands of resorts are available for exchange through II. True, but not until deposits are actually made to II.

Bottom line, enrolled owners do not have direct access to trust owned inventory. Direct purchasers of points from marriott do.

Whether or not this makes any difference in practice, I suppose remains to be seen.

 

[tombo]

So you do not believe that "owners of the new points product" includes enrolled owners who convert their usage to points then?

No because the new program is selling points that are based on the Marriott owned inventory labelled the "trust". If you convert your week to points you are not depositing your week permanently into the trust and thus your converted points are not a part of the new points program based on trust inventory. You will still own your week, new points product purchasers own no specific week and are simply a part of the trust. A weeks owner is not ever going to be a part of the trust whether they convert their weeks to points or not.

 

[hipslo]

So you do not believe that "owners of the new points product" includes enrolled owners who convert their usage to points then?

Enrolled owners don't "own" points, they own weeks, but they can elect points in any given year (just like they can elect MR points - they don't "own" MR points).

 

[gblotter]

The interpretation seems to hinge on the definition of this unique phase "owners of the new points product". To some, it is a clever use of language designed to deceive. Others (like me) take it as an inclusive term intended to comprise both points owners and enrolled owners who opt for points. Who is right? (I've been known to be wrong before.)

 

[hipslo]

The only reason to not specifically answer owners repeated questions is because they know we won't like the real answer.

That shouldnt be a sufficient reason. Man up and answer the question directly. Anything less is somewhat insulting, and disrespectful, in my view. If its not an issue, go ahead and tell us why its not an issue, but don't avoid answering the question.

 

[5infam]

The interpretation seems to hinge on the definition of this unique phase "owners of the new points product". To some, it is a clever use of language designed to deceive. Others (like me) take it as an inclusive term intended to comprise both points owners and enrolled owners who opt for points. Who is right? (I've been known to be wrong before.)

It is very clear...owners of the new points product means people who buy points only and who are now owners of the Trust. When you "enroll" your week, you are not enrolling into the points trust - you are enrolling into the Exchange Company. So you do not own the new product, you just get to exchange. Just like now with II - you do not own any part of II - you just get to exchange. Hope that helps.

 

[hipslo]

The interpretation seems to hinge on the definition of this unique phase "owners of the new points product". To some, it is a clever use of language designed to deceive. Others (like me) take it as an inclusive term intended to comprise both points owners and enrolled owners who opt for points. Who is right? (I've been known to be wrong before.)

I am an attorney. No way are enrolled owners "owners of the new points product". I don't view this as language designed to decive, I view it as a very clear distinction between purchasers of points and enrolled owners who have the right to excahnge their weeks for points on an annual basis. Frankly, I don't even see any ambiguity on this particular point.

 

[tombo]

The interpretation seems to hinge on the definition of this unique phase "owners of the new points product". To some, it is a clever use of language designed to deceive. Others (like me) take it as an inclusive term intended to comprise both points owners and enrolled owners who opt for points. Who is right? (I've been known to be wrong before.)

When asked point blank to confirm that weeks owners who convert and deposit their weeks for points can reserve "trust" inventory, Marriott refuses to confirm in writing that in fact that is the case. Why would you assume it will work that way when Marriott refuses to say it will? If it would work that way wouldn't Marriott simply say so? Lack of confirmation is all you need to know.

When Marriott is asked if new points purchasers have access to the trust they have no problem confirming they will. We even have it in writing specifically stating that points purchasers can access the trust and weeks deposited for points, but not one specific response stating that wekks converters will have access to trust inventory. Why is it so easy for them to state specifically that new points purchasers have access to the trust but so hard for them to state the same thing for weeks owners? Perhaps because weeks owners don't have access?

Many here are trying to read into the Marriott legal speak what they want to hear. Until it is stated in easy to understand terms it is not for sure and probably not a fact IMO.

 

[dioxide45]

The interpretation seems to hinge on the definition of this unique phase "owners of the new points product". To some, it is a clever use of language designed to deceive. Others (like me) take it as an inclusive term intended to comprise both points owners and enrolled owners who opt for points. Who is right? (I've been known to be wrong before.)

The inclusion of the bolded quote below indicate that Marriott considers owners of the points product and converting weeks owners different type of owners and not "owners of the new points product".

The inventory that owners of the new points product have direct access to at any resort consists of weeks that are actually owned by the Trust. Any other occupancy by owners of the new points product at a resort, is of inventory that owners of weeks have elected to place into the new points exchange program.

 

[tombo]

The inclusion of the bolded quote below indicate that Marriott considers owners of the points product and converting weeks owners different type of owners and not "owners of the new points product".

I am an attorney. No way are enrolled owners "owners of the new points product". I don't view this as language designed to decive, I view it as a very clear distinction between purchasers of points and enrolled owners who have the right to excahnge their weeks for points on an annual basis. Frankly, I don't even see any ambiguity on this particular point.

You are both correct. Weeks owners who convert do not buy points, they still own weeks. Weeks owners who convert have the OPTION to EXCHANGE their weeks for points each year, but THEY DO NOT OWN ANY POINTS. Points owners OWN points, but not weeks. These are 2 totally different types of ownership.

 

[gblotter]

OK. Thanks to your various explanations, I now understand the difference you are trying to highlight. Either Marriott did not understand the question being asked (not likely), or they deliberately used a term "owners of the new points product" that would avoid giving an explicit answer (more likely). I guess I must I agree with your conclusions that enrolled owners remain weeks owners and are not points owners. If Marriott wants to clarify the definition of the term "owners of the new points product", then I can reconsider.

 

[dioxide45]

Marriott's non answer tells the whole story.

 

[gblotter]

Owners of Marriott Vacation Club weeks who enroll in the points product and elect to exchange for Vacation Club points have access to Marriott Vacation Club Destinations inventory and Interval International exchange inventory.

Another clever use of language is the term "Marriott Vacation Club Destinations inventory". Why would they use this term instead of simply saying "weeks owned by the Trust" as they did in their previous paragraph? I would also appreciate a clearer definition of this unique term "Marriott Vacation Club Destinations inventory.

I hate to assume bad faith in the answer that Marriott gave to Dave, but their use of these two unique terms leaves me wondering.

 

[tombo]

Another clever use of language is the term "Marriott Vacation Club Destinations inventory". Why would they use this term instead of simply saying "weeks owned by the Trust" as they did in their previous paragraph? I would also appreciate a clearer definition of this unique term "Marriott Vacation Club Destinations inventory.

I hate to assume bad faith in the answer that Marriott gave to Dave, but their use of these two unique terms leaves me wondering.

Dave asked them specifically if weeks owners who converted to points had access to the trust inventory. In the Marriott response it SPECIFICALLY says that marriott points purchasers have access to inventory owned by the trust. In the next paragraph it glaringly omits the same statement about trust access when describing what is available to weeks owners who convert.

Do you really have any doubt anymore?

 

[GregT]

Marriott's non answer tells the whole story.

Yes, this is a very legalistic response -- we were all hoping for a Plain English response that answered the question, but this was written to avoid a lawsuit and not answer the question.

I am an attorney. No way are enrolled owners "owners of the new points product". I don't view this as language designed to decive, I view it as a very clear distinction between purchasers of points and enrolled owners who have the right to excahnge their weeks for points on an annual basis. Frankly, I don't even see any ambiguity on this particular point.

Hipslo, my interpretation was also two pools and that Marriott controls access -- but that's what I was expecting. Any reason to see anything else?



All, I believe we are where we expected to be: 1) Two pools and 2) We should trust Marriott that they will be functionally co-mingled

By the way, I do believe they will be functionally co-mingled, as someone noted, the inventory would be totally frozen over if there wasn't significant trading activity between the pools.

I do believe that it will work, it is just an interesting process.

I'm still missing the old Marriott......(the one I used to stay at).

Best to all,

Greg

 

[GregT]

I hate to assume bad faith in the answer that Marriott gave to Dave, but their use of these two unique terms leaves me wondering.

I really don't think it's bad faith, I think that this was drafted by attorneys, not to educate the public, but to mitigate (legal) risk.

 

[gblotter]

I really don't think it's bad faith, I think that this was drafted by attorneys, not to educate the public, but to mitigate (legal) risk.

I must agree. As a re-read the Marriott response, I see attorney-speak all over it.

 

[gblotter]

So I'm summarizing this for my benefit - let me know if I've got anything wrong here.

There are three different classes of owners.

1. Legacy Weeks Owners = Own traditional deeded-week. No ownership in trust weeks. Cannot exchange via points system.

2. Enrolled Weeks Owners = Own traditional deeded-week. Paying for access to exchange via points system, but not an owner of trust weeks. Enrolled owners are not "owners of the new points product".

3. Points Owners = Own trust weeks. Can only access traditional deeded weeks if enrolled owners choose to exchange via points method or via traditional II exchanges. Also known as "trust owners" or "owners of the new points product".

There are five different inventory pools. (By inventory pool, I mean a source where someone might go to obtain time at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.)

1. Weeks Inventory = Traditional deeded-weeks. Accessible by Legacy Weeks Owners and Enrolled Weeks Owners wishing to reserve full-week at home resort via the legacy method.

2. Trust Inventory = Weeks owned by the Trust. Accessible by Points Owners wishing to reserve via the points method. Currently comprised of 11 resorts - maybe more in the future.

3. Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Inventory = Exchange pool accessible by Points Owners and/or Enrolled Weeks Owners wishing to exchange via the points method. Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Inventory <> Weeks owned by the Trust.

4. Interval International Inventory = Exchange pool accessible by all using traditional II exchange methods (not using the points method).

5. MRP Inventory Pool = Weeks given to Marriott in exchange for Marriott Reward Points. Marriott has full control over these weeks and can rent them out or use for other purposes as Marriott chooses.

 

[dioxide45]

So I'm summarizing this for my benefit - let me know if I've got anything wrong here.

Owners of the new points product <> Enrolled Owners

True. Trust Points > Enrolled Points

Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Inventory <> Weeks owned by the Trust

True, but trust points can be deposited to become MVCD inventory.

So then there are FOUR inventory pools. (By inventory pool, I mean a source where someone might go to obtain time at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.)

Weeks Inventory = accessible by Legacy Weeks Owners and Enrolled Weeks Owners wishing to reserve full-week at home resort via the legacy method

Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Inventory = accessible by Points Owners and/or Enrolled Weeks Owners wishing to exchange via the points method

Mostly true, trust owners can exchange for this inventory also

Trust Inventory = accessible by Points Owners wishing to reserve via the points method

Interval International Inventory = accessible by all for full-week exchanges not using the points method

Trust owners and converted weeks owners can also use destination points to exchange for full week and ShortStay exchanges in II. Trust owners must use points, converted week owners can use points or their week. Though we are unsure if Marriott to Marriott trades are permitted with destination points.