New CDC Guidelines for Restaurants and Bars

[WVBaker]

Face masks: what the data say

The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough?

www.nature.com

"For now, Osterholm, in Minnesota, wears a mask. Yet he laments the “lack of scientific rigour” that has so far been brought to the topic. “We criticize people all the time in the science world for making statements without any data,” he says. “We’re doing a lot of the same thing here.”

Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis.

Also, there's certainly a great deal of supposition in this article, as well as most others. When all the great minds reach some sort of definitive agreement, let me know.

 

[rapmarks]

A lot of people said this would disappear after the election and I am still waiting

 

[b2bailey]

A lot of people said this would disappear after the election and I am still waiting

What would disappear?

 

[rapmarks]

What would disappear?

Covid. Or concern over Covid

 

[bluehende]

"For now, Osterholm, in Minnesota, wears a mask. Yet he laments the “lack of scientific rigour” that has so far been brought to the topic. “We criticize people all the time in the science world for making statements without any data,” he says. “We’re doing a lot of the same thing here.”

Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis.

Also, there's certainly a great deal of supposition in this article, as well as most others. When all the great minds reach some sort of definitive agreement, let me know.

You honestly believe that the great minds have not reached agreement on masks? lol Please give a reference for someone with a great mind that actually says they do no good. When you google it you will ignore the thousands of references to great minds pleading with Americans to wear a mask.

As for your quote that was in an area talking about how hard it is to do research on humans. The rest of the article then actually gives studies.

ps

1400 dead for the second day in a row. Tell me again how annoying those masks are one more time.

 

[WVBaker]

You honestly believe that the great minds have not reached agreement on masks? lol Please give a reference for someone with a great mind that actually says they do no good. When you google it you will ignore the thousands of references to great minds pleading with Americans to wear a mask.

As for your quote that was in an area talking about how hard it is to do research on humans. The rest of the article then actually gives studies.

ps

1400 dead for the second day in a row. Tell me again how annoying those masks are one more time.

Oh well. Opinions are like... everyone has one. As someone once said and not verbatim, a wise man makes his own decisions, an unwise man follows the public opinion.

 

[rapmarks]

(quote of deleted post removed)
Actually a couple of posters on tug said this. I was hoping they knew what they were posting about

 

[bluehende]

Oh well. Opinions are like... everyone has one. As someone once said and not verbatim, a wise man makes his own decisions, an unwise man follows the public opinion.

I notice you did not answer the question.

A wise man also gets council from those that know more than they do.

 

[klpca]

Masks are stupid cheap, not the billions that we are going to invest on vaccines that quite a few people are bound to refuse to take. Even if it's a 15% decrease in infection rate, why wouldn't you do it? I mean just on a financial basis it would be the better choice.

Oh well, I have clients (financial based industry) that wind up costing themselves tens of thousands, or even sometimes hundred of thousands of dollars by refusing to take professional advice. In fact, quite a few say "I probably should have called you first" (and the answer is always, absolutely yes), but they do it anyway. I've stopped worrying myself about those folks. They like gambling and somehow ignore the financial cost of their ill-informed decisions. But that doesn't make them smart. They are stubborn, shortsighted, and somewhat arrogant. I suspect that human nature is similar across many walks of life, including taking vaccines and wearing masks. I just wish that unlike poor financial decisions the effects could be confined to the decision maker when making public health decisions. Unfortunately that isn't how it works.

 

[TravelTime]

Wearing a piece of paper or fabric in front of your nose and mouth does not seem scientific to me. I cringe every time people claim this is science and then ridicule others for not following the science. If this is the best that science offers right now, no wonder millions of people are getting sick and dying. I feel like the scientists are pretty lost and confused even after all these months. If you take into account that this is a variation of other diseases, then the scientists are really backwards. I expect more out of scientists who claim to be virus experts. I am waiting for the scientists and virus experts to offer real solutions and to stop calling a piece of paper/fabric science. I wear a mask anytime I am in public but I do not consider it to be any scientific innovation or anything. I do it because that is the only thing I can do. It is better than doing nothing. I have a lot of anger about this virus and that it is still around and that science is not offering much to stop it other than to tell us to wear masks. It feels like a scientific cop out.

 

[Cornell]

Wearing a piece of paper or fabric in front of your nose and mouth does not seem scientific to me. I cringe every time people claim this is science and then ridicule others for not following the science. If this is the best that science offers right now, no wonder millions of people are getting sick and dying. I feel like the scientists are pretty lost and confused even after all these months. If you take into account that this is a variation of other diseases, then the scientists are really backwards. I expect more out of scientists who claim to be virus experts. I am waiting for the scientists and virus experts to offer real solutions and to stop calling a piece of paper/fabric science. I wear a mask anytime I am in public but I do not consider it to be any scientific innovation or anything. I do it because that is the only thing I can do. It is better than doing nothing. I have a lot of anger about this virus and that it is still around and that science is not offering much to stop it other than to tell us to wear masks. It feels like a scientific cop out.

Similarly....there is no consensus when it comes to the M.D.'s on any of this. My doctor has given me X advice to live my life a certain way; and Jane's doctor gave her the opposite advice of Y.

Me: “If masks work, explain the case rises in high-compliance Chicago.”
You: “Because tests.”
Me: “How do we know masks are/aren’t working?”
You: “Because science.”

 

[klpca]

Wearing a piece of paper or fabric in front of your nose and mouth does not seem scientific to me. I cringe every time people claim this is science and then ridicule others for not following the science. If this is the best that science offers right now, no wonder millions of people are getting sick and dying. I feel like the scientists are pretty lost and confused even after all these months. If you take into account that this is a variation of other diseases, then the scientists are really backwards. I expect more out of scientists who claim to be virus experts. I am waiting for the scientists and virus experts to offer real solutions and to stop calling a piece of paper/fabric science. I wear a mask anytime I am in public but I do not consider it to be any scientific innovation or anything. I do it because that is the only thing I can do. It is better than doing nothing. I have a lot of anger about this virus and that it is still around and that science is not offering much to stop it other than to tell us to wear masks. It feels like a scientific cop out.

You can add a filter or double mask with an N95. Or just use an N95. They cost less than $5. I'm no expert but I have read info that says that the virus is respiratory in nature, is dependent on how much exposure you get from an infected person i.e. having a barrier and staying 6 feet away gives you your best chance at not getting it. If both of you are wearing barriers then it's that much better. My niece had covid for 2 weeks and neither my brother or his wife got it despite the close quarters (all three of them in a 2 bedroom mobile home). All they used were masks. Its better than doing nothing.

 

[am1]

Wearing a piece of paper or fabric in front of your nose and mouth does not seem scientific to me. I cringe every time people claim this is science and then ridicule others for not following the science. If this is the best that science offers right now, no wonder millions of people are getting sick and dying. I feel like the scientists are pretty lost and confused even after all these months. If you take into account that this is a variation of other diseases, then the scientists are really backwards. I expect more out of scientists who claim to be virus experts. I am waiting for the scientists and virus experts to offer real solutions and to stop calling a piece of paper/fabric science. I wear a mask anytime I am in public but I do not consider it to be any scientific innovation or anything. I do it because that is the only thing I can do. It is better than doing nothing. I have a lot of anger about this virus and that it is still around and that science is not offering much to stop it other than to tell us to wear masks. It feels like a scientific cop out.

One is always welcome to go back to school become a scientist, prove your worth so you get funding and access to trying to troubleshoot covid and coming up with a solution then get doctors and others to preach your findings and hope people who are not capable of critical thinking or caring adapt your protocols.

 

[davidvel]

Wearing a piece of paper or fabric in front of your nose and mouth does not seem scientific to me. I cringe every time people claim this is science and then ridicule others for not following the science. If this is the best that science offers right now, no wonder millions of people are getting sick and dying. I feel like the scientists are pretty lost and confused even after all these months. If you take into account that this is a variation of other diseases, then the scientists are really backwards. I expect more out of scientists who claim to be virus experts. I am waiting for the scientists and virus experts to offer real solutions and to stop calling a piece of paper/fabric science. I wear a mask anytime I am in public but I do not consider it to be any scientific innovation or anything. I do it because that is the only thing I can do. It is better than doing nothing. I have a lot of anger about this virus and that it is still around and that science is not offering much to stop it other than to tell us to wear masks. It feels like a scientific cop out.

If you ever have surgery, insist that the surgeon and all others in attendance not wear that piece of paper across their face.

 

[davidvel]

You honestly believe that the great minds have not reached agreement on masks? lol Please give a reference for someone with a great mind that actually says they do no good. When you google it you will ignore the thousands of references to great minds pleading with Americans to wear a mask.

As for your quote that was in an area talking about how hard it is to do research on humans. The rest of the article then actually gives studies.

ps

1400 dead for the second day in a row. Tell me again how annoying those masks are one more time.

The past 2 days are not significant. There have been about 750-1200 deaths on average each and every day for the past 239 (see graph above). There has been no meaningful change in daily deaths since this all started, with the exception of the early high losses in the Northeast.

 

[TravelTime]

If you ever have surgery, insist that the surgeon and all others in attendance not wear that piece of paper across their face.

That is not my point nor is wearing a mask during surgery comparable to the Covid situation.

 

[jabberwocky]

If you ever have surgery, insist that the surgeon and all others in attendance not wear that piece of paper across their face.

I would feel much more comfortable if people were wearing those surgical masks or N95s.

Unfortunately, in some areas people are still being advised to wear a “non-medical mask” even though surgical grade and N95 are now widely available (I can buy a pack of 5 N95 for $10 at our local grocery store - there seem to be plenty).

We would never tolerate allowing a surgeon to wear a fabric mask or basic paper mask, and if we are requiring masks for everyone, then we should at least require masks which are shown to provide a decent level of protection. Otherwise we give people false security and they take riskier actions than they should.

The recommendation for “non-medical masks” was made to save PPE for first responders - it was not science-based.

 

[bluehende]

The past 2 days are not significant. There have been about 750-1200 deaths on average each and every day for the past 239 (see graph above). There has been no meaningful change in daily deaths since this all started, with the exception of the early high losses in the Northeast.

Pretty damn meaningful to the nearly 3000 families. Deaths have increased 50% over the last 3 weeks. On oct 15 the 7 day moving average was 712. Yesterday it was 1080 and rising rapidly. Hospitals all over the country are at their breaking point. Hospitalizations are at a record and will continue to rise for weeks to follow followed quickly by mortality. You know that deaths lag by 2 to 4 weeks increased cases. These are real numbers not some graph that is ridiculously scaled. I am appalled at the minimization of this national tragedy. And all we have to do to save lives is wear a damn mask. I hope your family does not have to attend a virtual funeral as our family has had to.

 

[bluehende]

Wearing a piece of paper or fabric in front of your nose and mouth does not seem scientific to me. I cringe every time people claim this is science and then ridicule others for not following the science. If this is the best that science offers right now, no wonder millions of people are getting sick and dying. I feel like the scientists are pretty lost and confused even after all these months. If you take into account that this is a variation of other diseases, then the scientists are really backwards. I expect more out of scientists who claim to be virus experts. I am waiting for the scientists and virus experts to offer real solutions and to stop calling a piece of paper/fabric science. I wear a mask anytime I am in public but I do not consider it to be any scientific innovation or anything. I do it because that is the only thing I can do. It is better than doing nothing. I have a lot of anger about this virus and that it is still around and that science is not offering much to stop it other than to tell us to wear masks. It feels like a scientific cop out.

Then you have lots of studies showing your claim .....right. I have posted probably a dozen studies showing what you claim is not scientific. There has been a few links posted to the MIT course that discusses all the amazing work that has been done on this virus. Please watch some before you denigrate people that are trying to help. They have given you a real easy solution. If more than 50% of Americans refuse to use it due to it being politicized it is not the scientific community that is at fault.

 

[davidvel]

Pretty damn meaningful to the nearly 3000 families. Deaths have increased 50% over the last 3 weeks. On oct 15 the 7 day moving average was 712. Yesterday it was 1080 and rising rapidly. Hospitals all over the country are at their breaking point. Hospitalizations are at a record and will continue to rise for weeks to follow followed quickly by mortality. You know that deaths lag by 2 to 4 weeks increased cases. These are real numbers not some graph that is ridiculously scaled. I am appalled at the minimization of this national tragedy. And all we have to do to save lives is wear a damn mask. I hope your family does not have to attend a virtual funeral as our family has had to.

Nice try. I didn't say the lives lost were not meaningful. I said there has been no meaningful change in daily deaths since this all started. It has gone up and down, but since May it has generally hovered around a moving average of about 1000/day.

There is no magic in the chart I posted*, it is a linear scale (not altered), and interactive so you can see the actual data on any given day. You say "On oct 15 the 7 day moving average was 712. Yesterday it was 1080, and rising rapidly." The numbers are correct, but the curve appears no more rapid than in July.

On 4/20 it was 2242
On 7/5 it was 518
On 8/4 it was 1181
On 9/13 it was 755
On 11/11 it was 1080

And yet, the average overall still surrounds 1000/day since May. My post was about the ludicrous posting of positive tests as a meaningful metric (and imposing shutdowns as hey do her ein California), when you don't fairly account for the number of tests given, and I was comparing positive tests to the average daily deaths. You may have missed that part.

I am not against masks, nor do I minimize this tragedy.

Thank you for your concern. We did have a virtual memorial in September. Sorry for your loss.

* Maybe you'll like this chart better:

 

[WVBaker]

I notice you did not answer the question.

A wise man also gets council from those that know more than they do.

You offered your comments and I did as well. I know where you stand and you know where I do. I'm not going to debate personal perspectives with you.

Excellent advice. Never forget that.

 

[heathpack]

We would never tolerate allowing a surgeon to wear a fabric mask or basic paper mask, and if we are requiring masks for everyone, then we should at least require masks which are shown to provide a decent level of protection.

Im not sure how you came to believe this, but fabric and basic paper masks are the accepted standard for surgical procedures. Surgeons do not wear N95 masks or face shields unless there is particular concern for a communicable disease.

I do surgery for a living and the same exact fabric mask that I might wear out in public is completely acceptable for me to wear doing brain surgery. We’d sterilize it first but it’s not even sterile once you put it on, because the mask, cap and shoe covers are all put on with ungloved hands outside the OR prior to scrubbing for surgery.

I work in a huge 24/7 veterinary practice with over 100 employees most shifts in a small building, so we’re not able to socially distance. I’ve marveled that we’ve only had 1 employee case throughout the pandemic despite working gangbusters constantly. My guess is that masks being fairly “normal” in the biz helped a lot. We didn’t have to convince our employees of the benefit, they just seemed to “get it” right away. We of course adopted a mandatory mask rule very quickly after the onset of COVID.

 

[geekette]

Wearing a piece of paper or fabric in front of your nose and mouth does not seem scientific to me. I cringe every time people claim this is science and then ridicule others for not following the science. If this is the best that science offers right now, no wonder millions of people are getting sick and dying. I feel like the scientists are pretty lost and confused even after all these months. If you take into account that this is a variation of other diseases, then the scientists are really backwards. I expect more out of scientists who claim to be virus experts. I am waiting for the scientists and virus experts to offer real solutions and to stop calling a piece of paper/fabric science. I wear a mask anytime I am in public but I do not consider it to be any scientific innovation or anything. I do it because that is the only thing I can do. It is better than doing nothing. I have a lot of anger about this virus and that it is still around and that science is not offering much to stop it other than to tell us to wear masks. It feels like a scientific cop out.

I'm sorry that a simple solution doesn't seem scientific to you. probably watch some of those videos that depict droplet spread with or without a mask. I'm not sure what you're looking for that is scientific To You, but this seems to be clear evidence to me that droplet spread is the key and that the solution doesn't have to be complex to be based in science.

I guess my question would be, what would seem scientific to you that would actually help stop the spread of the virus?

 

[TravelTime]

It does not seem like the mask is preventing the virus with the numbers going up and a second/third wave happening. I think a scientific innovation would be an effective vaccine and effective treatments.

 

[Cornell]

I live in an area that is probably one of the highest mask compliance area in the nation (Chicago area). I honestly do not see anyone unmasked anywhere. Yet our covid numbers have rapidly increased in the past month.