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Moderator warning: Stay on topic re points! Limit debates!

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Latravel

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I applaud this decision. Can you imagine this board without a strong moderator? It would be taken over by the same few people with very strong opinions.

I personally have stopped reading the posts because they are long, boring and filled with wrong information. Thanks, Dave, and hopefully this will return the board to more interesting/intelligent conversation and I can start reading again.
 

hotcoffee

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I applaud this decision. Can you imagine this board without a strong moderator? It would be taken over by the same few people with very strong opinions.

I personally have stopped reading the posts because they are long, boring and filled with wrong information. Thanks, Dave, and hopefully this will return the board to more interesting/intelligent conversation and I can start reading again.

I agree completely. I have lost interest in most of the threads now. They are too long with mostly two or three people debating one-another on issues that are largely speculative.
 

DanCali

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I applaud this decision. Can you imagine this board without a strong moderator? It would be taken over by the same few people with very strong opinions.

I personally have stopped reading the posts because they are long, boring and filled with wrong information. Thanks, Dave, and hopefully this will return the board to more interesting/intelligent conversation and I can start reading again.

Well, you obviously haven't stopped reading all posts since you found this thread :)

I have been avoiding posting in this thread because although I have a lot to say after getting my posts deleted and threads I posted in getting shut down (and I'm not the only one it happened to) I have been sent a PM by the moderator a couple of weeks ago that if I imply censorship directly or indirectly I may be banned from further posting on TUG. So other than this factual statement, which I think is important in the context on the thread, I'm done on this topic :ignore:

I apologize to whose who miss the "good old days" when people were raving about Marriott resorts on this board all day long. But you know what...? I miss the Bush era and can't help that either. Just as the Bush era ended on January 20, 1010 I think the Marriott "good old days" on TUG ended on June 20, 2010. This is not a bunch of Tuggers hijacking the board. This is Marriott's doing by betraying their most loyal owners... I'm a relatively new Marriott owner and feel betrayed - I can't even begin imagine how people who have owned for 10-15 years feel. Should we pretend this fundamental change never happened and go back to singing Kumbaya all day long?
 

hotcoffee

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. . . I apologize to whose who miss the "good old days" when people were raving about Marriott resorts on this board all day long. But you know what...? I miss the Bush era and can't help that either. Just as the Bush era ended on January 20, 1010 I think the Marriott "good old days" on TUG ended on June 20, 2010. This is not a bunch of Tuggers hijacking the board. This is Marriott's doing by betraying their most loyal owners... I'm a relatively new Marriott owner and feel betrayed - I can't even begin imagine how people who have owned for 10-15 years feel. Should we pretend this fundamental change never happened and go back to singing Kumbaya all day long?

Well, where the posts on on topic and not degenerating into just two or three people going off on tangents, it is possible to learn something.

You have forced me on two occasions to go back and reread documents and talk to Marriott reps to clarify issues that were inaccurate. That is useful.

We can disagree on whether there is really anyone truly "betrayed" by the new program, but the forum still needs to stay focused on helping all of us gain useful and accurate information.
 

NboroGirl

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I have the utmost respect for Dave but censoring BBS threads is not what TUG should be about.

Good grief! I did not read anything that said Dave is censoring BBS threads, only that he wants threads to REMAIN ON TOPIC. Nothing wrong with that. He said nothing about trying to abolish debates, only that these debates should be contained within the thread that pertains to them.

Like LaTravel, I stopped visiting this site for about a week because it seemed every thread turned into a debate between the same 6 individuals arguing the pros and cons of Marriott's new poinits system. Just came back today, saw this thread, and had to add my 2 cents.
 

David10225

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I'm just a daily reader but a nobody infrequent poster, but I'm kind of saddened by this. It does seem like censorship to me. I have no way of knowing what's in anyone's head, but that's how it feels to me. My philosophy is to ignore any thread that seems off topic.

We had like what...almost 2000 posts before the program was announced, but I don't recall posts getting deleted for being off thread....but maybe I just missed it..
 

DanCali

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You have forced me on two occasions to go back and reread documents and talk to Marriott reps to clarify issues that were inaccurate. That is useful.

Thank you.
 

AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
The Invisible Hand.

I don't recall posts getting deleted for being off thread....but maybe I just missed it.
Hard to see the TUG-BBS entries after they've been deleted.

( Just saying. )

However that may be, the Grand Pro has always got to back up the moderator, otherwise the moderator's authority is cut off at the knees.

By me, the moderators all do a fine job of keeping us unruly TUG-BBS participants in line, & I applaud them for the quality of their (volunteer) work.

There are plenty of "anything goes" BBS web sites out there, & this 1 is way pleasanter than those, largely because of participants' willing adherence to the rules, plus some deftly applied course corrections from the moderator staff now & then.

Thanks, moderators.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia.​
 
L

laurac260

TUG does have an ignore feature - if you use it you won't see any of our posts...


ahhh yes, the ignore button. I have put it in place on one occasion since the points program rolled out.

At this point I'd like to use the ignore button to ignore the points program itself! :D

Seriously though, 20 days of bantering about the same info is getting to be overkill. Like someone mentioned before, there has been NO new news since June 20th. The other 3 million threads from day 2 till now have been, quite frankly, :deadhorse: At this point I'd like to see the points program moved to the points discussion section of TUG.

Thanks Dave. Perhaps we can get back to talking about timeshares now.
 

tombo

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Please read the following posts by Boca on a thread which main topic is to stay on topic and to limit debates. Is Boca limiting or creating debates?




ondeadline posed a post to dave, Boca had to answer for dave and give ondeadline his position rather than waiting for dave

I view it like anything else. Dave's the moderator, he makes the calls. If you don't like it, there are other message boards with different moderating rules or you can sign up to be moderator.
.

Then I posted to Dave, and again Boca had to rebutt and explain what dave said to me as though no one but Boca understood what Dave said. Boca let me explain my post to you. It was a truthful post laced with sarcasm. I understood what he said and unlike Oprah's audiences I really don't need to have things translated by you so I can understand.:

I think what Dave is saying is that we can make an argument, but only make it once per thread and make sure it's relevant to the topic of the thread. Seems reasonable to me.

Then I responded to Clemson Fan to which Boca had to answer and explain Dave' thread locking to me followed by ANOTHER time Boca said the same thing about how he feel about converting to points and playing the game on a thread designed to stop off topic debates.

Tombo,
I think I am part of the problem. I don't think that thread was closed exclusively because of you. I think it was closed partly because of me as well for the reason you state.
Actually, I am advocating that owners make their own decision and decide what they want to do based on what they read. Owners who agree with you should not enroll into the program. Owners who want to play the game the way I do, should consider doing it.

Then another post by Boca suggesting that Brian support Dave:

I can go either way. A total free for all, or a moderated approach. As long as I know what the rules are, I'll follow them.
If I were Brian, I would support DaveM. He has done the most I've seen to create the best Marriott forum on the internet.
.

Then another confrontational post to ondeadlne which could easily be construed as argumentative. He challenges him to find someone better, and if ondeadline responds Boca will fire back. Hmmm, limit debates by creatng them?:

I didn't say he was the ONLY person who made this a great forum. I said he did the MOST to make this the best forum. Please point out a single other person who has done more?

Then a kind of demeaning response to Fletch basically treating him like a child and lecturing him on how message boards are run. Then in a backhanded way boca tells him to go to another forum if he doesn't like it here followed by more advice to brian to support Dave. Nice friendly post:

Most professional message boards have some type of moderation that includes modifying or deleting posts. TUG has always had moderation rules. In fact, when Brian came on, they were significantly relaxed.
Timeshare Forums was created to have more liberal posting rules in part due to moderation rules on TUG. So, there are choices out there for people who want more or less freedom to post what they want.
This forum is indeed the best Marriott forum on the internet and I give DaveM most of the credit. I think we need to back off Dave and let him run it the way he wants. He has earned the right to make that call. I'll bet Brian supports that idea.


Boca please give us all a break. For goodness sake on a thread designed to limit debates, you have debated everyone who doesn't agree with you. You posted 6 or 7 threads berating me and telling me that I must not understand timesharing, I should sell since I don't know what I bought, that change happens and I should learn to accept it, etc, etc, etc. on a thread Friday between the time I left work Friday and when I arrived home.

I bit my tongue long enough but just the posts on this thread where everyone is supposed to limit debates show everyone clearly where many unending debates start and continue., Boca (as he has done on MOST threads) stirs the pot, has to get the last word in, talks down to people he disagrees with like they are children, uneducated, or learning disabled, states the same points over and over again (Brian support Dave, join points to play the system like me, etc, etc), Where are the Boca complaints? Tombo would not post near as many times if Tombo ddn't have to defend himself from posts by Boca.

This is my third post on this whole thread where my name has been brought up many times. Boca has posted 8 times so far. Gosh perhaps even those who agree with Boca's posts will finally have to see the truth.
 
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David10225

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Hard to see the TUG-BBS entries after they've been deleted.

( Just saying. )


Sigh....that was meant to include people complaining about them....

Even here you get cut down...OK..I'm done with posting...back to read only mode...
 
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SueDonJ

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(We're away this weekend, been to Niagara Falls and are now in Toronto. Niagara Falls was much more impressive than I expected, and I'm thrilled the RedSox took two out of three to limp into the All Star Break. Plus Marriott has treated us VERY well with upgrades on the cash stay at NF and the MR points stay here at the Toronto Ren, for those who keep track of those things.)

Um, I think Dave's TUG job is extremely difficult lately because Marriott, in its usual fashion, hasn't offered very much plainspeak here to help us figure things out. One of the best things about TUG is that it's a relatively friendly, nice place to visit ... if a heavy moderating hand needs to be applied every once in a while, so be it.

Somebody mentioned instead of using a blanket approach, why not single out posters where individual instances of not-so-friendly posts happen? And you know what? Even as a recipient of one or two of those public reprimands that leave me embarrassed, I think a pointed, direct, private notice to an offender's TUG mailbox is not a bad thing. Like I said, Dave has had to reign me in once or twice, but because of those times I'm never sure if he's referring to something I've done since in his blanket reprimands.

I'm not proud of having to be called out, believe me. But certain personality traits don't just disappear with online communication. I HATE to have my words misconstrued or ignored! And I'm sure that is NO surprise to anybody who reads TUG on a regular basis. :eek:

So, if anybody has been offended by my repeated posts to explain myself in enough ways to ensure that I'm understood with respect to this new Points system, I'm truly sorry. I can't promise that I'll use less words as we all continue to figure this out, but I'll try very hard to use the nicest ones. And Dave? Can links to posts in the locked threads also be included where you've asked us to use them?
 

winger

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ondeadlin

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I have been sent a PM by the moderator a couple of weeks ago that if I imply censorship directly or indirectly I may be banned from further posting on TUG.

If that really happened, it's pretty darn disappointing and very, very unlike what TUG has historically been about.
 

jlf58

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Tombo,

Now thats a great post :)
remember, he deals with general managers ( the factious kind that MVCI doesn't have) so he must know more than us LOL

Bottom line is I think only attacks and langauge should be deleted/modifed but Dave is the man here so either way I am fine with it.

Boca please give us all a break. For goodness sake on a thread designed to limit debates, you have debated everyone who doesn't agree with you. You posted 6 or 7 threads berating me and telling me that I must not understand timesharing, I should sell since I don't know what I bought, that change happens and I should learn to accept it, etc, etc, etc. on a thread Friday between the time I left work Friday and when I arrived home.

I bit my tongue long enough but just the posts on this thread where everyone is supposed to limit debates show everyone clearly where many unending debates start and continue., Boca (as he has done on MOST threads) stirs the pot, has to get the last word in, talks down to people he disagrees with like they are children, uneducated, or learning disabled, states the same points over and over again (Brian support Dave, join points to play the system like me, etc, etc), Where are the Boca complaints? Tombo would not post near as many times if Tombo ddn't have to defend himself from posts by Boca.

This is my third post on this whole thread where my name has been brought up many times. Boca has posted 8 times so far. Gosh perhaps even those who agree with Boca's posts will finally have to see the truth.
 
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dougp26364

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DanCali

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If that really happened, it's pretty darn disappointing and very, very unlike what TUG has historically been about.

It was sent on June 28. I am not going to post the contents of that PM publicly but if my description of that PM was incorrect I am sure Dave will set the record straight...
 

DeniseM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanCali View Post
I have been sent a PM by the moderator a couple of weeks ago that if I imply censorship directly or indirectly I may be banned from further posting on TUG.

If that really happened, it's pretty darn disappointing and very, very unlike what TUG has historically been about.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd just like to point out that complaining about moderating has always been a violation of the TUG rules:

Honor changes entered by moderators
You may not alter, edit, or delete any edits introduced into your message by a Moderator or Administrator. This is considered a serious offense and may result in loss of posting privileges.

In addition, do not enter complaints about moderation into BBS messages. Such posts will be considered off-topic and will be removed. Any such complaints or discussion should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message.

Secondly - As to why Dave posted this, instead of dealing with individuals - It's a warning to those individuals so that they can't say they didn't know. It's standard policy around here to post warnings (when possible) before action is taken.

3rdly - Any of you who have been around awhile know that Dave M has ALWAYS demonstrated the highest standards of ethical behavior on TUG. He is clearly not trying to either defend or promote any particular position. What he is trying to do is keep the Marriott forum a place where people can share info. in a respectful environment, without a million duplicate posts.

In a nutshell - I think some of you are reading too much into this warning. ;)
 
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jlf58

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Denise,

I am not sure why but you scare me :)



I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd just like to point out that complaining about moderating has always been a violation of the TUG rules:



Secondly - As to why Dave posted this, instead of dealing with individuals - It's a warning to those individuals so that they can't say they didn't know. It's standard policy around here to post warnings (when possible) before action is taken.

3rdly - Any of you who have been around awhile know that Dave M has ALWAYS demonstrated the highest standards of ethical behavior on TUG. He is clearly not trying to either defend or promote any particular position. What he is trying to do is keep the Marriott forum a place where people can share info. in a respectful environment, without a million duplicate posts.

In a nutshell - I think some of you are reading too much into this warning. ;)
 

ondeadlin

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Denise, there's a big difference between approaching things the way you just did, and (a) threatening to ban people for implied criticism, and (b) yelling at the community - many of whom are happy to support TUG financially for years - with exclamation point-accented threatening posts, mostly because they disagree with you (IMO).

How we approach people often matters more than what we actually say.
 

RedDogSD

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I could care less about the moderation policies but I will say that the other TS board does not have lively discussion, arguments or anything interesting very often. So, I go there about once a week where I come to TUG daily. So, if the consequence of any policy results in a less lively and interesting discussion, that is a shame. Most of the interesting people will not come by very often. Boca, Sue, Doug, Perry, Tombo etc all have views on all different sides but at least it is interesting. There is only one person on the Marriott board who attacks everyone all of the time, but no one listens to that person any more.
 

DanCali

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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd just like to point out that complaining about moderating has always been a violation of the TUG rules:



Secondly - As to why Dave posted this, instead of dealing with individuals - It's a warning to those individuals so that they can't say they didn't know. It's standard policy around here to post warnings (when possible) before action is taken.

3rdly - Any of you who have been around awhile know that Dave M has ALWAYS demonstrated the highest standards of ethical behavior on TUG. He is clearly not trying to either defend or promote any particular position. What he is trying to do is keep the Marriott forum a place where people can share info. in a respectful environment, without a million duplicate posts.

In a nutshell - I think some of you are reading too much into this warning. ;)

Denise - I agree that one warning to one person by itself shouldn't be read too much into.

But taking all the posts from several people that talk about deleting and/or closing quite a few posts and threads, while considering that the moderator has "close ties to people at Marriott" (in his own words) one could reach a different conclusion.

The reality is that in a heated debate there is a lot of room left for interpretation as to when someone is "out of line". And there is a lot of heated debate on this board since June 20.... A moderator has the discretion to delete any post almost at will in such circumstances under the excuse that someone is rude/impolite/repetitive/off topic etc. Closed thread fall to page 225 in the forum and deleted posts are never seen. As Alan said, it's hard to find the deleted posts to see which side of the debate they were on, but some people in this thread who are typically just readers and were not involved in the discussions have commented their thoughts on this issue.

The aforementioned comment I made re "censorship" regarding which Dave sent me that PM was in this post. I was reacting to a thread he closed down under the excuse that I quoted a previous post of mine verbatim. Yes, he was correct... it was easier to quote myself but I thought the topic of discussing the real costs of the points system merited a new thread. I don't see a reason to prevent people the benefit of discussing the costs of the system - but discretion was exercised and the original thread was shut down. I was persistent and opened a new thread which complied with TUG rules (aside from the censorship comment...). Others may have stopped posting altogether thus preventing that important discussion.
 

Dave M

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I have been sent a PM by the moderator a couple of weeks ago that if I imply censorship directly or indirectly I may be banned from further posting on TUG.
and....
It was sent on June 28. I am not going to post the contents of that PM publicly but if my description of that PM was incorrect I am sure Dave will set the record straight...

Yes, I sent Dan a warning PM on June 28. However, he distorts the intent of that message. He had violated this part of the BBS Posting Rules on multiple occasions:
... do not enter complaints about moderation into BBS messages. Such posts will be considered off-topic and will be removed. Any such complaints or discussion should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message.
Thus, I warned him that such discussion, including complaints of possible censorship, is out of order. Further, I did not warn him that he might be banned. I did warn him that he could expect to be suspended if he ignored the rule. A one or two week suspension is occasionally necessary (always approved by Brian Rogers) when people repeatedly ignore the Posting Rules.

(Obviously, I have been somewhat lenient with respect to the various accusations in this thread.)
 
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