Moderator warning: Stay on topic re points! Limit debates!

[jennifer 4]

Dave, I support you in this. There is enough information already posted for a person to be able to make up their own mind. Even people who are for or against may actually change by the time they make their final decision.
I see no point in continually rehashing the same subject over and over.
Reading some of these postings was like being in the middle of a bad soap opera.

Life is going to go on whether you use points or not. Most of us, unless we sell, will continue using our timeshares. Life is too short; let us try to help each other by relaying any new helpful information we find. That is why most of us joined TUG.

 

[Janette]

Thanks Dave. It's time to enjoy our vacations, look at our own situation and stop worrying about what others are doing. Sorry you have had such a hard few weeks moderating.

 

[Dave M]

Boo. I found TUG when I needed info the most and have always appreciated the free flow of information and vigorous debate, most of which is friendly. This is a huge issue that effects all Marriott owners greatly and the more debate, the better.

Debate is healthy. But endless repetition is not useful at the expense of hijacking the useful flow of new information.

I don't like the idea that it appears the supporters of Marriott's new points program have been able to stifle those who oppose the system using a method other than debate.

See my most recent post in this thread. It's neither supporters nor opposers who are stifling debate. Debate can live on. (Please read my OP carefully.)

Many will recall that we used to have some people who regularly derailed almost every thread dealing with resales into a debate over whether ROFR was a good or bad thing. So I set up a designated thread for debate on ROFR. Eventually, the ROFR debate moderated such that it was no longer necessary to limit debate to that one thread. I expect that will happen here, too.

Perhaps we need some similarly designated threads on a few of the most pressing issues as well as a general points debate thread. That way, those (such as Dan) who believe that a poster must hear all of the continuing arguments for and against a particular issue, whether the poster wants to or not, can link the poster to the designated thread.

 

[dougp26364]

Give it time. It will all settle down. Right now there's a bunch of unknowns and owners are a little wound up not knowing exactly how the change will affect them. This time next year we'll all know pretty much how, or if, we've been affected. I'm betting the short and long term affect won't be nearly as bad as some of us have speculated.

 

[jlf58]

I personally think Dave needs a man hug to get him through this

Give it time. It will all settle down. Right now there's a bunch of unknowns and owners are a little wound up not knowing exactly how the change will affect them. This time next year we'll all know pretty much how, or if, we've been affected. I'm betting the short and long term affect won't be nearly as bad as some of us have speculated.

 

[jennifer 4]

OK, Everybody!!

1,2,3, Visualize a Big Group Hug!!!

 

[m61376]

How about 2 distinct threads- one for all the pros of the new program (and, I think most of us would agree that, despite the deficiencies and things we don't like, there are potentially many benefits) and one for the cons and less friendly aspects. That way, when someone looks here for help in making a decision, they can find all the positives and all the negatives, and use those threads to help make an informed decision.

Past that, something we all have to accept is this is what is. Let's get back to doing what Tuggers usually do best- help each other out to find the best ways to make this work and find the loopholes to work to our mutual benefit; that will likely help in the decision making process as well.

 

[tombo]

Nobody is in the "wrong", but it does seem like tombo in particular is crusading trying to convince everybody not to join the points program. Nearly every thread that has anything to do with points contains many of these posts from tombo.

Every one of those threads also contain NUMEROUS posts from people advocating points such as Boca and Doug.Why not mention them by name? 90% of my posts are in response to someone else's post who is advocating conversion to points. How can you notice my posts and not the quote included in it I am reponding to? Many if not the majority of my posts are responding to someone who made a post directly to me or about one of my posts? Should I not respond?

Boca has responded with opposing opinions to 2 people who posted things he disagreed with (myself and ondeadline) and posted 4 times in this thread which asks people to limit debates.Why not mention him? I did not respond to Boca on this thread, and ondeadline only responded that he can't respond because it would be 2 posts. Those by Boca don't seem to bother you. In fact on one thread Dave locked yesterday Boca and Doug made 9 consecutive posts advocating conversion to points with no one else posting in between until I made one final post, then it was locked. Once again this didn't bother you? Only my repetitive posts are of concern, or is it only repetitive posts against Marriott points that are of concern? By the way, I am not mad at Doug or Boca, they are simply good examples of posters who express their opinions repeatedly too.

PS This is only my second post on this thread, and I wouldn't have posted it if not called out by name.

 

[kedler]

Good post, Dan. Neither is okay. It matters not which side of the fence you are on.Yes, they should be able to hear both sides. And because both sides have usually been debated numerous times, you can do them a service by providing a link to one or more of those debates.

I still haven't figured out how to provide a link to a post or a thread would you please tell me how or provide a link to where the information is contained on TUG - I figured out how to insert a link to a web page but not to TUG posts/threads.

 

[pedro47]

Will Marriott in the future come out with a clearer understanding or guidelines of the new point program? To clear the air.

Please! I am not trying start to an argument. I just need a clearer understanding of the program.

Please delete this post if this is going to start a unkind discussion.

I support Dave M decision on this topic.

 

[BocaBum99]

Every one of those threads also contain NUMEROUS posts from people advocating points such as Boca and Doug. 90% of my posts are in response to someone else's post who is advocating conversion to points. How can you notice my posts and not the quote included in it I am reponding to? Many if not the majority of my posts are responding to someone who made a post directly to me or about one of my posts? Should I not respond?

Boca has responded with opposing opinions to 2 people who posted things he disagreed with (myself and ondeadline) and posted 4 times in this thread which asks people to limit debates.Why not mention him? I did not respond to Boca on this thread, and ondeadline only responded that he can't respond because it would be 2 posts. Those don't seem to bother you. In fact on one thread Dave closed Boca and Doug made 9 consecutive posts with no one else posting in between until I made one final post, then it was locked. Once again this didn't bother you? Only my repetitive posts are of concern, or is it only repetitive posts against Marriott points that are of concern? By the way, I am not mad at Doug or Boca, they are simply good examples of posters who express their opinions repeatedly too.

PS This is only my second post on this thread, and I wouldn't have posted it if not called out by name.

Tombo,

I think I am part of the problem. I don't think that thread was closed exclusively because of you. I think it was closed partly because of me as well for the reason you state.

Actually, I am advocating that owners make their own decision and decide what they want to do based on what they read. Owners who agree with you should not enroll into the program. Owners who want to play the game the way I do, should consider doing it.

 

[ondeadlin]

I've sent an e-mail to Brian because I'd like him to take a look at this decision.

If TUG is going to suddenly take a hard line on policing debate, it should do so with fairness to both sides. As I said yesterday, I don't think I've ever criticized a moderator or a moderator's decision before, but the last few weeks have really been a change in direction on this board.

If you can't tolerate others' opinions due to your own personal affection for the Marriott system, or your own personal connections with Marriott insiders who provide you with information for this board, than perhaps you should take a step back from moderating.

And if it's just that you don't like disagreement, then ... well ... perhaps moderating a discussion board which depends on debate for a good deal of its traffic isn't the best fit. The simple answer to anyone complaining about opinions they disagree with is this: Use the ignore button or don't read the posts.

Edited to add: And the exclamation points bug me. They're not the sort of thing most moderators would tolerate from a regular poster, because they're the Internet version of yelling, and thus disrespectful. You don't foster respect with disrespect.

 

[dioxide45]

It seems this whole thread was started to just stir more debate....:ignore::rofl:

 

[FlyerBobcat]

I still haven't figured out how to provide a link to a post or a thread would you please tell me how or provide a link to where the information is contained on TUG - I figured out how to insert a link to a web page but not to TUG posts/threads.

At the upper right corner of every post is a number (#x). If you select that, a new window for that post will pop-up, and the URL can be copied from the top of that browser window. Paste that link as you would for any web page in your new posting.

Also, at the top of that individual post page will be a "thread" link that can be selected ---- and then it will show the entire thread (or one of the pages of that thread.)

 

[CMF]

At the upper right corner of every post is a number (#x). If you select that, a new window for that post will pop-up, and the URL can be copied from the top of that browser window. Paste that link as you would for any web page in your new posting.

Also, at the top of that individual post page will be a "thread" link that can be selected ---- and then it will show the entire thread (or one of the pages of that thread.)

Thanks for the tip!
Charles

 

[m61376]

Owners who want to play the game the way I do, should consider doing it.

and herein lies one of the best parts of this Board- learning from others how to do what might benefit us most- whether we elect to join or not, the rules have changed and collectively we can learn how to manipulate things in our best interests.

 

[BocaBum99]

I've sent an e-mail to Brian because I'd like him to take a look at this decision.

If TUG is going to suddenly take a hard line on policing debate, it should do so with fairness to both sides. As I said yesterday, I don't think I've ever criticized a moderator or a moderator's decision before, but the last few weeks have really been a change in direction on this board.

If you can't tolerate others' opinions due to your own personal affection for the Marriott system, or your own personal connections with Marriott insiders who provide you with information for this board, than perhaps you should take a step back from moderating.

And if it's just that you don't like disagreement, then ... well ... perhaps moderating a discussion board which depends on debate for a good deal of its traffic isn't the best fit. The simple answer to anyone complaining about opinions they disagree with is this: Use the ignore button or don't read the posts.

I can go either way. A total free for all, or a moderated approach. As long as I know what the rules are, I'll follow them.

If I were Brian, I would support DaveM. He has done the most I've seen to create the best Marriott forum on the internet.

If others think they can create a better one, I say go for it. PerryM is trying.

 

[jlf58]

I have the utmost respect for Dave but censoring BBS threads is not what TUG should be about.

I can go either way. A total free for all, or a moderated approach. As long as I know what the rules are, I'll follow them.

If I were Brian, I would support DaveM. He has done the most I've seen to create the best Marriott forum on the internet.

If others think they can create a better one, I say go for it. PerryM is trying.

 

[ondeadlin]

Let me be clear that I also have considerable respect for Dave. He does what is essentially a thankless job.

But he has not "done the most" to create "the best Marriott forum on the Internet" - because without the core posters, there is no forum. Nobody is going to come here just to listen to any one person. You've created this forum, Boca, and Perry has, and Fletch has, and, of course, Dave has, and so on ... including people I don't agree with. It's that exchange of knowledge and viewpoints that has created "the best Marriott forum on the Internet."

But if you think that's not a fragile thing, consider how AOL once dominated the e-market and is now an afterthought.

 

[BocaBum99]

Let me be clear that I also have considerable respect for Dave. He does what is essentially a thankless job.

But he has not "done the most" to create "the best Marriott forum on the Internet" - because without the core posters, there is no forum. Nobody is going to come here just to listen to any one person. You've created this forum, Boca, and Perry has, and Fletch has, and, of course, Dave has, and so on ... including people I don't agree with. It's that exchange of knowledge and viewpoints that has created "the best Marriott forum on the Internet."

But if you think that's not a fragile thing, consider how AOL once dominated the e-market and is now an afterthought.

I didn't say he was the ONLY person who made this a great forum. I said he did the MOST to make this the best forum. Please point out a single other person who has done more?

 

[BocaBum99]

I have the utmost respect for Dave but censoring BBS threads is not what TUG should be about.

Most professional message boards have some type of moderation that includes modifying or deleting posts. TUG has always had moderation rules. In fact, when Brian came on, they were significantly relaxed.

Timeshare Forums was created to have more liberal posting rules in part due to moderation rules on TUG. So, there are choices out there for people who want more or less freedom to post what they want.

This forum is indeed the best Marriott forum on the internet and I give DaveM most of the credit. I think we need to back off Dave and let him run it the way he wants. He has earned the right to make that call. I'll bet Brian supports that idea.

 

[l2trade]

I prefer an approach to moderating a forum which relies on warning and moving posts to the appropriate thread versus deleting them. I believe deletes should only happen to posts that are rude, vulgar, political, advertisement, etc. The standard stuff I've always expected from TUG forum rules.

I recognize that I am just a participant in these discussions. I am not a moderator and this is not my forum. TUG has every right to delete any of my posts. I have every right not to like it when they do so in a way I feel stifles free speech. I had a post deleted without warning on Jun 20th because I supposedly posted it in the wrong thread. I took my time and energy to contribute what I thought was relevant explanations I was getting from Marriott about the point value differences. Why delete that? Why not move it or at least warn me ahead of time, so I can copy my comments and not lose my work when you do. Because I was unhappy, I took a ~6 day self imposed break from posting on the Marriott forum. I assumed stuff was settling down here, so I returned in a more limited way. I am still NOT sharing here to the degree I would have otherwise. I am not participating to the degree I did prior to Jun 20th when I researched and gave accurate facts about the upcoming points system BEFORE it was official.

Here's hoping Brian makes an inclusive decision to encourage the active board participation we see. Deletes will stifle that free speech and free debate. Yes, I have every right to seek exercise of my FREE SPEECH elsewhere. If the stuff I write and read here gets deleted for the reasons promised earlier in this thread, I promise to leave the Marriott forum. I can post or blog elsewhere about timeshares. I choose TUG because it felt inviting and inclusive and diverse. Let's please respect that diversity of ideas. Let's give people a chance to talk about these topics as long as they feel a need or desire to. It is having a place to go to discuss these topics ad nauseam which makes this place so unique and welcoming. In the real world, L2Trade gets booted when he talks on and on and on about timesharing. I thought TUG was a safe, virtual place I could visit and have the freedom to go on and on and on. You can ignore me if you wish, anybody can ignore those they don't want to hear, but if you delete me you take away other people's freedom to listen. :ignore:

Maybe it is time for TUG to add a LIKE feature to help people who are so overwhelmed or offended by too much to read. Maybe you only like taking the time to read some of what I have to say and prefer to ignore the rest. With a LIKE feature, you could just set a filter to only read the most liked posts. I will continue to read them all, all viewpoints, or else I will leave entirely if I lose my freedom to do so.

 

[lovearuba]

just wish the rules were consistent

Its amazes me that the moderator is a Marriott owner and has a close friend in a high place at Marriott. Given that bias, I would say Dave does as good a job as anyone in that position would have. If it is not possible to have a moderator that is a non owner and not affiliated with Marriott then Dave is the best man for the job.

 

[GeNioS]

It's a message board. If Tombo annoys people, they'll stop responding to him. That's how message boards work.

Message boards that start deciding what is "approved" conversation usually become very boring very fast. Especially when one person's opinion is apparently the only criteria for what is, and is not, allowed.

This. (I reserve the right to post one additional comment if I come up with something original.)

 

[GeNioS]

Okay, fine....personally, I think the thread that has educated me the most on the points system was the one where two people were discussing one's exchange history and whether the points system would be beneficial to them.

One person said it would be and one was disagreeing. And both were giving great opinions and showing real world examples to boot. If either party gets tired of the discussion, stop responding....but that thread has been the single best (and impartial) informational source regarding the points system that I have found (in regards to how it will impact me).

Threads tend to migrate towards the issues people want to discuss, or isues which have no clear answer...how many threads ended up at ROFR (which apparently = ROFL? joke. I'm NOT getting into that one....)

The interesting part of this, and what makes this different from most topics, is that people who do not join the points system will, in fact, be affected by those who do...and vice versa. For that, both sides have a vested interest in making sure that they convey every point possible to show why they believe they are correct.

Certainly, if someone posts "DON'T JOIN THE POINTS SYSTEM" in the middle of a "Which Villa do I request at NCV" thread, it should be removed. But if a thread is titled,"Does the points system work for me," someone should be able to post and repost and repost again as long as their is anyone willing to continue the discussion, argument, debate...whatever.

My two cents. (Which I believe is worth one now in the new Marriott point system. Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll start another thread.)