[ MERGED ] Michigan family jailed in Mexico over timeshare dispute

[jp10558]

This whole thing still makes me question how any of this as described would be fraud. I've had 2 (much smaller dollar amount) situations that seem very similar, but I can't see them as fraud. Maybe some of the "this was fraud" can explain how these situations were me defrauding someone.

One time I ordered from a non-amazon some headphones for $30. The arrived smashed to pieces in the package. I went online to say on their site "Look, these were destroyed inside your packing - IDK if you packed them poorly and they got destroyed in shipping (so you need to open a case with the shipper) or if you shipped me already crushed headphones from your warehouse." They said, fine, pay $10 to ship them back to us for a replacement. I did a chargeback, they canceled my account (after years of orders with no issues BTW) and now I never do business with them in the 15 years since. I just can't see why I should be out 1/3 the cost for shipping back when I did nothing but receive a crushed object. Card company sided with me. Was this fraud on my part?

I also years ago now signed up for an online service for $500 for a year. I logged in after signing up and paying and it let me browse around the first day. I went back 2 days later and could not log in. I always use a password manager, and so I notice when various websites lose or reset your password without telling you, and I'm sure this is what happened, because that first day I logged in using the password manager. It didn't forget the password. No problem you would think, except I could find no way to reset my password without already logging in. I also could not find any phone number or e-mail address or form to contact customer service without logging in first. I did a chargeback on that too - why should I pay for a service I literally can't use and there was no way to get in touch with the company about the issue? Especially 3 days into a year. It's not like I actually used it for 6 months or something. I still get occasional letters I throw out about that. Card company again sided with me.

In a lot of ways I guess by the logic I've seen here, I've committed fraud 2 times in those situations, but I can't see it. I don't see why I should expect to eat the costs when the companies won't even try and talk to me about the actual situation. And look - I would be fine with paying shipping back if I decided I just didn't like the color or design of the headphones, or paying the service bill if I just didn't like the actual service - it was getting 0 service that did it for me.

 

[Roger830]

This whole thing still makes me question how any of this as described would be fraud. I've had 2 (much smaller dollar amount) situations that seem very similar, but I can't see them as fraud. Maybe some of the "this was fraud" can explain how these situations were me defrauding someone.

One time I ordered from a non-amazon some headphones for $30. The arrived smashed to pieces in the package. I went online to say on their site "Look, these were destroyed inside your packing - IDK if you packed them poorly and they got destroyed in shipping (so you need to open a case with the shipper) or if you shipped me already crushed headphones from your warehouse." They said, fine, pay $10 to ship them back to us for a replacement. I did a chargeback, they canceled my account (after years of orders with no issues BTW) and now I never do business with them in the 15 years since. I just can't see why I should be out 1/3 the cost for shipping back when I did nothing but receive a crushed object. Card company sided with me. Was this fraud on my part?

I also years ago now signed up for an online service for $500 for a year. I logged in after signing up and paying and it let me browse around the first day. I went back 2 days later and could not log in. I always use a password manager, and so I notice when various websites lose or reset your password without telling you, and I'm sure this is what happened, because that first day I logged in using the password manager. It didn't forget the password. No problem you would think, except I could find no way to reset my password without already logging in. I also could not find any phone number or e-mail address or form to contact customer service without logging in first. I did a chargeback on that too - why should I pay for a service I literally can't use and there was no way to get in touch with the company about the issue? Especially 3 days into a year. It's not like I actually used it for 6 months or something. I still get occasional letters I throw out about that. Card company again sided with me.

In a lot of ways I guess by the logic I've seen here, I've committed fraud 2 times in those situations, but I can't see it. I don't see why I should expect to eat the costs when the companies won't even try and talk to me about the actual situation. And look - I would be fine with paying shipping back if I decided I just didn't like the color or design of the headphones, or paying the service bill if I just didn't like the actual service - it was getting 0 service that did it for me.

It doesn't seem that clawing back payment over the past 13 months is equivalent to receiving a damaged product or not being able to access a paid service.

Their situation doesn't seem like fraud to me either, but I also can't justify their conduct.

 

[SueDonJ]

Is there any sort of "commercial activity" prohibition in any of the contracts/paperwork that these people signed during all of their many, many purchases? That's what I'm thinking might be in play. We're all aware that despite owner rentals of reservations being allowed according to the t&c's, timeshare companies certainly have a lot of leeway to define, for themselves, how many rentals by owners and/or the rental mechanisms used by owners might constitute a prohibited commercial venture. They also have leeway to enforce their prohibitions selectively on a case-by-case basis without being under any constraint to notify the ownership overall when/how they choose to do so. It's hard to try to make sense of this couple's purchase history and dues/fees payment history, but the sheer number of bonus weeks that they earned and subsequently rented makes me think that "commercial activity" as defined and applied to their ownership by the company, is a definite possibility.

 

[dioxide45]

This whole thing still makes me question how any of this as described would be fraud. I've had 2 (much smaller dollar amount) situations that seem very similar, but I can't see them as fraud. Maybe some of the "this was fraud" can explain how these situations were me defrauding someone.

One time I ordered from a non-amazon some headphones for $30. The arrived smashed to pieces in the package. I went online to say on their site "Look, these were destroyed inside your packing - IDK if you packed them poorly and they got destroyed in shipping (so you need to open a case with the shipper) or if you shipped me already crushed headphones from your warehouse." They said, fine, pay $10 to ship them back to us for a replacement. I did a chargeback, they canceled my account (after years of orders with no issues BTW) and now I never do business with them in the 15 years since. I just can't see why I should be out 1/3 the cost for shipping back when I did nothing but receive a crushed object. Card company sided with me. Was this fraud on my part?

I also years ago now signed up for an online service for $500 for a year. I logged in after signing up and paying and it let me browse around the first day. I went back 2 days later and could not log in. I always use a password manager, and so I notice when various websites lose or reset your password without telling you, and I'm sure this is what happened, because that first day I logged in using the password manager. It didn't forget the password. No problem you would think, except I could find no way to reset my password without already logging in. I also could not find any phone number or e-mail address or form to contact customer service without logging in first. I did a chargeback on that too - why should I pay for a service I literally can't use and there was no way to get in touch with the company about the issue? Especially 3 days into a year. It's not like I actually used it for 6 months or something. I still get occasional letters I throw out about that. Card company again sided with me.

In a lot of ways I guess by the logic I've seen here, I've committed fraud 2 times in those situations, but I can't see it. I don't see why I should expect to eat the costs when the companies won't even try and talk to me about the actual situation. And look - I would be fine with paying shipping back if I decided I just didn't like the color or design of the headphones, or paying the service bill if I just didn't like the actual service - it was getting 0 service that did it for me.

A simple chargeback doesn't constitute fraud. The issue here is what was the money paid that was successfully charged back for? Was it for services already rendered and fully delivered? If so, that could be considered fraud. Neither of your situations fall into rendered and fully delivered.

 

[jbman]

This whole thing still makes me question how any of this as described would be fraud. I've had 2 (much smaller dollar amount) situations that seem very similar, but I can't see them as fraud. Maybe some of the "this was fraud" can explain how these situations were me defrauding someone.

One time I ordered from a non-amazon some headphones for $30. The arrived smashed to pieces in the package. I went online to say on their site "Look, these were destroyed inside your packing - IDK if you packed them poorly and they got destroyed in shipping (so you need to open a case with the shipper) or if you shipped me already crushed headphones from your warehouse." They said, fine, pay $10 to ship them back to us for a replacement. I did a chargeback, they canceled my account (after years of orders with no issues BTW) and now I never do business with them in the 15 years since. I just can't see why I should be out 1/3 the cost for shipping back when I did nothing but receive a crushed object. Card company sided with me. Was this fraud on my part?

I also years ago now signed up for an online service for $500 for a year. I logged in after signing up and paying and it let me browse around the first day. I went back 2 days later and could not log in. I always use a password manager, and so I notice when various websites lose or reset your password without telling you, and I'm sure this is what happened, because that first day I logged in using the password manager. It didn't forget the password. No problem you would think, except I could find no way to reset my password without already logging in. I also could not find any phone number or e-mail address or form to contact customer service without logging in first. I did a chargeback on that too - why should I pay for a service I literally can't use and there was no way to get in touch with the company about the issue? Especially 3 days into a year. It's not like I actually used it for 6 months or something. I still get occasional letters I throw out about that. Card company again sided with me.

In a lot of ways I guess by the logic I've seen here, I've committed fraud 2 times in those situations, but I can't see it. I don't see why I should expect to eat the costs when the companies won't even try and talk to me about the actual situation. And look - I would be fine with paying shipping back if I decided I just didn't like the color or design of the headphones, or paying the service bill if I just didn't like the actual service - it was getting 0 service that did it for me.

It would only be fraud if you were lying, ie the headphones weren't smashed, you just said they were to avoid paying for them, or in the second scenario you could log in, but said you couldn't to avoid paying for the subscription.

There hasn't been nearly enough information released for anyone to know whether these people actually committed fraud or not, the point is that it is certainly plausible that they did.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

It would only be fraud if you were lying, ie the headphones weren't smashed, you just said they were to avoid paying for them, or in the second scenario you could log in, but said you couldn't to avoid paying for the subscription.

There hasn't been nearly enough information released for anyone to know whether these people actually committed fraud or not, the point is that it is certainly plausible that they did.

What about innocent until proven guilty?

 

[jbman]

What about innocent until proven guilty?

Yes, they are innocent until proven guilty, that is what the trial would be for.

 

[geist1223]

What about innocent until proven guilty?

That has nothing to do with pretrial detention. Even in the GREAT USA many people are detained prior to trial.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

6 mos without bail? They did not commit murder or violent assault. Heck they aren't even drug dealing or selling guns. 6 months seems like an unusually long pre-trial penalty for white collar crime even if they are found guilty.

Flight risk but you would think their lawyer could work something out.

 

[am1]

It doesn't seem that clawing back payment over the past 13 months is equivalent to receiving a damaged product or not being able to access a paid service.

Their situation doesn't seem like fraud to me either, but I also can't justify their conduct.

Yes he is out to lunch comparing the issues.

 

[pedro47]

This thread have generated a large following on this website and I wonder have many Tuggers have crossed this Mexican resort off their exchange list?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

duplicate

 

[pedro47]

6 mos without bail? They did not commit murder or violent assault. Heck they aren't even drug dealing or selling guns. 6 months seems like an unusually long pre-trial penalty for white collar crime even if they are found guilty.

Flight risk but you would think their lawyer could work something out.

Sound liked this is Mexican punishment for some unknown crime.
Six months in any jail is punishment and no bail. That is crude.

 

[geist1223]

This thread have generated a large following on this website and I wonder have Tuggers have crossed this Mexican resort off their exchange list?

Not us.

 

[joestein]

No new info in the video.

My interpretation of all of this is that these people signed the purchase contract knowing that they did not intend to fulfill it, and they publicly stated so in a Facebook group they created to teach other people to pull the same kind of scheme. So they basically admitted to fraud in a public square, and they pissed off a powerful and probably well-connected company in Mexico, and even worse – they cost the company a lot of money by encouraging others to rip them off in a similar manner. The company pulled strings and got charges filed against the couple and a warrant issued for their arrest. Then the couple was stupid and arrogant enough to return to Mexico, where the warrant was immediately executed.

I think they probably belong in the jail where they currently reside. Entering a contract fraudulently is a crime in pretty much every country.

The law is THE LAW. Defrauding any government...and then posting he was a police man &*^&$#@:? he should know better! Then posting what they did.... Maybe they should stay there a little longer, and have Father Brown (PBS) visit them. We purchased from Palace Resorts, did our research checking...they were on the up and up and a fine company to purchased thru. That was 28+ years ago and have been VERY HAPPY & PLEASED with our purchase. Never went to an update unless we had an idea to upgrade.

First..... the dispute is not with the gov't. It is with a timeshare company. Also, this should be a civil matter. IMHO, this arrest is an extortion. I thought I read somewhere they got the Mexican authorities to file charges when they found out the couple was going to visit Mexico.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

First..... the dispute is not with the gov't. It is with a timeshare company. Also, this should be a civil matter. IMHO, this arrest is an extortion. ........

Question : If you rob a bank in New Jersey - is it a civil matter or can you be charged with a crime by the NJ Police & prosecuted criminally ?
I understand that TS developer's Sales Depts. are not held in high regard on TUG but .......

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

@pedro47 - Re: This thread & Mexican Exchanges.

I already booked 2 weeks in Puerto Vallarta for 2026 . We got home to Ontario Canada a week ago [7 weeks away] and it is still winter here.
I am on RCI every morning awaiting more 2026 weeks in Puerto Vallarta , and have an OGS going as well.

As a Canadian there are places I elbowed off our 2026 travel list . Mexico in snowbird season is not one of them.

 

[AJCts411]

Yes, they are innocent until proven guilty, that is what the trial would be for.

Mexico is Napoleonic Law based, where the presumption of innocence does not exists as in USA. Police make a charge, you prove them wrong.

 

[joestein]

They were wanted by Interpol. Mexico did nothing wrong except check that this couple had outstanding

Question : If you rob a bank in New Jersey - is it a civil matter or can you be charged with a crime by the NJ Police & prosecuted criminally ?
I understand that TS developer's Sales Depts. are not held in high regard on TUG but .......

You are comparing a robbery to a civil dispute in which one party is accused of fraud. The dispute is between the party's. The Gov't is enforcing the law.

Mexico is incredibly corrupt... I am guessing that it is likely Palace has a few judges in their pocket.

 

[PigsDad]

Mexico is Napoleonic Law based, where the presumption of innocence does not exists as in USA. Police make a charge, you prove them wrong.

That is incorrect. In 2008, Mexico implemented significant criminal justice reforms and now adheres to the principle that a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But they obviously still have very different processes for bail, detention, etc.

Kurt

 

[jp10558]

This thread have generated a large following on this website and I wonder have many Tuggers have crossed this Mexican resort off their exchange list?

I have, and maybe crossed Mexico off my exchange list.

 

[rpennisi]

I have, and maybe crossed Mexico off my exchange list.

If you pay your bills and don't try to get out of payments that you legally signed up for, there is no problem visiting and enjoying Mexico and its wonderful resorts. If you try to game the system and then go online to encourage others to do the same, then you probably should not visit Mexico or do so at your own peril.

 

[easyrider]

This thread have generated a large following on this website and I wonder have many Tuggers have crossed this Mexican resort off their exchange list?

Actually, this scenario has us looking at the resorts because of the people deciding not to go out of concerns for the jailed couple. It would be nice to go to the pool anytime we wanted and not find all of the chairs toweled, lol.

Bill

 

[WorldT]

That is incorrect. In 2008, Mexico implemented significant criminal justice reforms and now adheres to the principle that a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But they obviously still have very different processes for bail, detention, etc.

Kurt

This is correct. Although their laws still allow for mandatory pre-trial detention for certain crimes. One thing that was added recently which maybe related to the this issue has to do with fraud.
Unfortunately, the laws are not very clear and many entities have claimed the pre-trial detention system have been abused. There are people being incarcerated for longer than 6 months without a trial.
I don't know who is at fault here or if any dispute here rises to the level of criminal fraud. I still maintain the 6 month detention while a private company is allowed to "gather evidence" as reported is extreme and very much favors the accuser. What are the repercussions to the accuser if they are unable to find this evidence they are trying to gather? If the evidence wasn't that strong already to proceed to trial, why was a warrant issued.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Actually, this scenario has us looking at the resorts because of the people deciding not to go out of concerns for the jailed couple. It would be nice to go to the pool anytime we wanted and not find all of the chairs toweled, lol.

Bill

LOL...I am sure there are plenty of chairs at the maximum security prison where they send alleged white collar criminals who dispute their timeshare bill - free lodging and AI food too!