Maui Resort Property Tax increase significantly?

[DeniseM]

Our account on MSC is showing 2010 MF for WKORV now -- a 25% increase from last year.

Our entry for WKORVN is still showing a projected MF (i.e. the same as last year)

That is just the estimate - in the past the estimates have been unreliable.

Once it has a "due date" listed, we'll know it's the real deal.

 

[YYJMSP]

WKORV not quite 25% increase

I forgot to account for the previously announced tax increase that is probably included in the MF showing on MSC.

Given that, it appears the base increase is around 9% if we ignore the 2009 tax shortfall and the 2010 tax increase, or 20% if we assume that 2010 tax increase is always going to be there from now on...

 

[DanCali]

I forgot to account for the previously announced tax increase that is probably included in the MF showing on MSC.

Given that, it appears the base increase is around 9% if we ignore the 2009 tax shortfall and the 2010 tax increase, or 20% if we assume that 2010 tax increase is always going to be there from now on...

Unless you have a credible threat to vote officals out of office in Hawaii, I would assume taxes can only go up...

 

[LisaRex]

Unless you have a credible threat to vote officals out of office in Hawaii, I would assume taxes can only go up...

Or unless we can successfully appeal.

 

[DavidnRobin]

I forgot to account for the previously announced tax increase that is probably included in the MF showing on MSC.

Given that, it appears the base increase is around 9% if we ignore the 2009 tax shortfall and the 2010 tax increase, or 20% if we assume that 2010 tax increase is always going to be there from now on...

9% ??? - LOL

It is a 25.1% increase NO MATTER how it is justified...
and a 90% increase since 2005

2Bd LO Dlx at WKORV
2005 $1,623.77
2006 $1,813.16 (11.7%)
2007 $1,954.27 (7.8%)
2008 $2,203.79 (12.8%)
2009 $2,459.73 (11.6%)
2010 $3,076.69 (25.1%)

since they all go up proportionally - this will be the same % increase for all other WKORV VOIs

 

[DanCali]

Or unless we can successfully appeal.

"we" i.e. Starwood or the HOA? Are they appealing on owners' behalf? Do we know what "our" main argument would be?

Personally, I'm not sure where Starwood's interests lie here and if they are aligned with owners' interests. They can't set the tax rate - governments have the legal right to tax... The only thing they can do is argue that these units are worth $10K-$15K on the resale market (they have the ROFR data) so taxes should be much lower. That would be a good argument and may even help our cause, but I doubt Starwood wants to go down that road.

 

[YYJMSP]

We've owned at both WKORV and WKORVN since 2005, and we just assume that the MFs will go up 10% each year on average, so they double every 7 years I think is how that works out...

Being Canadian, and the MFs being billed in USD, we get to play the "what's the exchange rate going to be right after New Year's" game every year as well. That can make the MF fluctuate by as a much as another 10% in either direction from our point-of-view.

 

[DanCali]

We've owned at both WKORV and WKORVN since 2005, and we just assume that the MFs will go up 10% each year on average, so they double every 7 years I think is how that works out...

One cannot make that assumption and hang on to their timeshare. If this is what you really assume you should sell it... Doubling every 7 years (10% annual increase) means that MFs of $2500 today will be $5000 in 7 years, $10,000 in 14 years, and $20,000 in 21 years, and 40,000 in 28 years. Timesharing is supposed to be good value after the initial upfront cost, not drive you (or your children) into bankuptcy. Needless to say that resale values will go to zero much before the next 7 years are up if we continue raising MFs at 10% a year.

In a normal world where the HOA is looking after owners' interests MF increases should reflect some reasonable cost of living index. This is even what Starwood salespeople say....That is also why Worldmark can gurantee, in writing, that MFs will not go up by more than 5% each year, and their actual increases have been lower than 5% (I'm not sure what they will do if we go into an inflationary economy, but so far their model is working and owners seem happy).

 

[Weez]

Well got my invoice in todays mail.

New MF for WKORV is $2,351.36 for 2BR lockoff Annual

Master Association Assessment 160.36
Apartment Ownership Assessment 410.93
Vacation Ownership Assessment 1661.54
SVN Fee 113.53
ARDA-ROC-Pac Contribution 5.00

Ugghhhhhh

 

[Fredm]

Well got my invoice in todays mail.

New MF for WKORV is $2,351.36 for 2BR lockoff Annual

Master Association Assessment 160.36
Apartment Ownership Assessment 410.93
Vacation Ownership Assessment 1661.54
SVN Fee 113.53
ARDA-ROC-Pac Contribution 5.00

Ugghhhhhh

Quick calculation.
Starwood's management fee is 10% off the top.
Average increase of $500 per 2 bedroom interval x 20,800 intervals for KOR and KORN x .10 = $1,040,000 in additional management fees from the 2010 increase alone.

 

[Weez]

I've read thru most of the posts and while I've seen it suggested several times about the timeshare managements teaming up to fight this, has anything actually been planned? Are there any petitions or complaints filed to voice our displeasure? Just seems like we need to push a little harder on this maybe for e their hand.

 

[vacationtime1]

I spoke with the friendly reps at Starwood yesterday about some unrelated items (my own reservations for 2010 and 2011). The Maui property tax increase just happened to come up in conversation.

I was told that ARDA was going to file a lawsuit against the County of Maui about the recent assessment/tax rate. That would be consistent with ARDA's role as a lobbyist.

Of course, I could have been told this simply to encourage the $5 donation to ARDA when I paid my MF's.

 

[Weez]

Thanks for the info Robert!

 

[jjlovecub]

I will be there in 2 weeks for Thanksgiving so I am just going to have a great time and not dwell on the increase. Not going to let it spoil my trip!

 

[Henry M.]

The annual summary that came with the latest WKORV bill says:

The Association has begun the appeal process to protest the valuation methodology of this proposed assessment increase and has submitted tax protests to Maui County. The required tax payments have been paid under protest and the payments have been placed in a litigation funds account pending the outcome of the valuation protest. Neither the Association nor Maui County will have access to these funds until the dispute is resolved.

The Management Company will use tax consultants and attorneys to fight on behalf of the Association. Additionlally, ARDA-Hawai'i has been actively involved and will continue to pursue the issue on behalf of all timeshare owners in Maui.

While the exact date has not yet been set, this matter will be scheduled for a hearing in 2010, and the Management Company will provide addtional updates in the future if the situation is resolved wither through the formal protest process or through negotiations with Maui County.

 

[DavidnRobin]

I've read thru most of the posts and while I've seen it suggested several times about the timeshare managements teaming up to fight this, has anything actually been planned? Are there any petitions or complaints filed to voice our displeasure? Just seems like we need to push a little harder on this maybe for e their hand.

I have strongly recommended to all Tuggers that they write/call the specfic resort HOAs - I have and will respond to their response - and so on and so forth - until I get a reasonable answer and importantly a PLAN. However, since I am fortunate to have an excellent job (or a job at all... keep repeating...) - I cannot do this for others - nor even quickly for myself. My position is to pay my MFs - get as much vacation value from the resorts that we own - and continue to battle.

Again - do not sit back and expect others to do this, unless you do not care - (money tree is in constant bloom) - do this - a noisy minority can work. If you choose not to then you are contributing to the problem

Lack of tranparency of HOAs because of the suppression of communication from owner to owner community is the root of the issue (ESPECIALLY in today's web-based days). I would be very happy to be on the WSJ or WKORV BOD - and I would put to an Owner vote to override the SVO policy about communication between owners - but no way that is going to happen (for a variety of reasons) - but mainly because SVO controls who is on the BOD - again by CCRs that Owners signed

 

[DavidnRobin]

The annual summary that came with the latest WKORV bill says:

The Association has begun the appeal process to protest the valuation methodology of this proposed assessment increase and has submitted tax protests to Maui County. The required tax payments have been paid under protest and the payments have been placed in a litigation funds account pending the outcome of the valuation protest. Neither the Association nor Maui County will have access to these funds until the dispute is resolved.

The Management Company will use tax consultants and attorneys to fight on behalf of the Association. Additionlally, ARDA-Hawai'i has been actively involved and will continue to pursue the issue on behalf of all timeshare owners in Maui.

While the exact date has not yet been set, this matter will be scheduled for a hearing in 2010, and the Management Company will provide addtional updates in the future if the situation is resolved wither through the formal protest process or through negotiations with Maui County.

I am very glad to hear that they have set aside the funds - and are challenging . PTS? ... 10%?

 

[dss]

David - Great post - Since you clearly have a rich understanding of the players and what fights we should be picking here, is three any chance we could impose on you to create a simple FAQ document with talking points and contacts for contacting the HOAs? I'm happy to put in the time for my part but want to make sure it's focused in the proper areas.

Thanks so much for any guidance you could offer.

 

[DeniseM]

I have strongly recommended to all Tuggers that they write/call the specfic resort HOAs - I have and will respond to their response - and so on and so forth - until I get a reasonable answer and importantly a PLAN.

David - I used the email function at MSC to request the contact info. for all the WKORV BOD members on Oct. 19th and still have not received the info. (as promised.) I will post that info. on TUG as soon as I get it...

 

[DeniseM]

LisaRex's post about maintenance fees and the info. in her SW Docs, and 2 responses, have been moved to the maintenance fee thread, as her request - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108663&page=5

 

[DeniseM]

David - Great post - Since you clearly have a rich understanding of the players and what fights we should be picking here, is three any chance we could impose on you to create a simple FAQ document with talking points and contacts for contacting the HOAs? I'm happy to put in the time for my part but want to make sure it's focused in the proper areas.

Thanks so much for any guidance you could offer.

Great idea!

 

[LisaRex]

WKOVR-N 2 bdrm LO MFs:

2010 Master Association Assessment $165.83
2010 Apartment Ownership Assessment $581.77
2010 Vacation Ownership Assessment $1732.00
Total: $2479.60 + 2010 SVN Membership Fee $113.53 (if applicable)

We're paying $350 per night. That is more than what I paid to rent a 2 bdrm privately owned 2 bdrm OF condo at Kaanapali Shores a few doors up in 2006.

Interesting notes:

"developer contribution:

Over the past years, the developer has voluntarily contributed to the budget to help offset a portion of your annual costs. In 2009 this voluntary contribution is forecasted to be approximately $192k versus the approved budget of $1.1M due primarily to savings in expenses such as utilities. In 2010, the developer is projected to voluntarily contribute $440k to help offset a portion of your costs. Due to expense savings, the amount amount contributed by the developer is lower than the 2009 budget amount, resulting in an increase in the Owners fee of $24.62 per average ownership week."

We pay a MF of $545.90, a management fee of $52.89, $5.29 to the Kaanapali North Beach Master Association, Inc. and $113.53 to SVN. That's $717 right off the top.

Oy vey.

 

[DanCali]

Interesting in comparing posts 1 and 2 in this thread... WKORVN letter talked a lot about energy savings to offset the tax. Yet (i) the MFs went up just as much as WKORV, which didn't have the "energy clause" and (ii) MFs went up even net of the tax increase impact. Makes you wonder where those savings went...

 

[gregb]

Got my WKORV-N MF bill today as well. Numbers are the same as LisaRex.

What I did find interesting was the glossy "annual summary and 2010 forecast" included with the bill.. It identifies the (decreases) and increases in the various categories of the expenses. I found this to be enlightening. While one might not like the numbers, this enclosure goes a long way to shed light on where the increases come from. I applaud Starwood for including it as a good start towards transparency.

In particular, according to the sheets, almost all of the expenses associated with labor costs have gone down for 2010. Also, the energy costs have gone down. There are several areas with increases, the two biggest being the increased property taxes ($307.63), and delinquent owners ($215.77 increased budget for 2010). Another big increase comes is to cover cover shortfalls from 2009 ($119.35). I believe part of this is to cover delinquent owners in 2009.

When I add up the increases and decreases from the sheet, it comes to a total increase of $555.99. This is a little less than the $614.98 the fees actually increased. So I assume that some of the other expenses were not called out in the sheet.

But again, I think this is a good start at explaining why the costs have gone up so much this year (33.0%).

Greg

 

[pharmgirl]

Here are the MFs for the new marriott Maui TS, don't know how much they increased
Lahaina & Napili Towers
2Bdrm $1896.49
3Bdrm $2275.79
I requested that somene let me know what was the increase and what is the tax component

I suggest we all write to Maui County authorities to protest the increase on timeshares

Since the WKORV increase is so high, I will notify the Maui County authorities that we will NOT use restaurants, activities, etc that cost the amount of the increase

Does anyone know address or names, boards, etc in Maui to direct letter?
this of course is in addition to writing to HOA