Maui Hotels Have the Highest Rates But the Lowest Occupancy

[ScoopKona]

I think at times there is confusion (or conflation) between history and reality. Hawaii is today what Hawaii is today. It may be different than what it used to be, but “authentic” is in the eye of the beholder. What most mean by “authentic“ is really just a way of saying “like it used to be.” Are all of you that cry for Hawaii to return to being “real and authentic” prepared to get rid of Costco, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, supermarkets, shopping malls, strip centers, and other “trappings” of modern life (like paved roads)? None of that is “authentic” (historical) in Hawaii.

Hawaiians are upset that they can't afford to live there anymore. They're upset that their culture has been commoditized -- something now packaged and sold to tourists. And they're upset that everyone gets to enjoy their island except them -- they're too busy working to pay the bills, and it's entirely too crowded.

They have legitimate beefs. And I think it would be better to listen to them than to suggest they return to stone-age technology.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I love Maui and all of the islands, but I just visit and never plan to move there. As soon as people move to Hawaii, they suddenly become critical of everything having to do with tourists. It's very hypocritical.

I still enjoyed the Polynesian Cultural Center, even though some of you think it's not authentic. You get some history from it. I also liked Smith's luau better than any other on Kauai for that cultural experience.

I like Old Lahaina Luau, too, but I always wonder what the locals who do these shows nightly really think of all of us. They are gracious and kind, but what are they thinking behind those smiles.

Reminds me of boarding a plane and having the flight attendant look at you as you board. You know that smile on their faces is just plastered on because it's a job, not a lovely experience, and they don't expect you to love anything about it. It's a way to get from one place to another. They know it, and we know it.

As I said before, Maui is getting what it wants, a higher-end traveler that probably arrives on a private plane or in first class and is willing to spend some money. They will take less visitors and reap more taxes.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Hawaiians are upset that they can't afford to live there anymore. They're upset that their culture has been commoditized -- something now packaged and sold to tourists. And they're upset that everyone gets to enjoy their island except them -- they're too busy working to pay the bills, and it's entirely too crowded.

They have legitimate beefs. And I think it would be better to listen to them than to suggest they return to stone-age technology.

Same thing in Summit County, CO, which includes Breck, Frisco, Dillon, and a lot of ski resorts. There is a housing shortage, food is much more expensive than Denver, and people are renting their condos and homes via VRBO for $200-300 per night, especially during ski season. The ski slopes need employees and nowhere cheap for them to stay during ski season. It's a problem.

Breck and Frisco are charging more per unit to get a license to rent homes and condos. This includes our timeshare in Frisco and the many timeshares in Breck. For a management company like ours to get licensed to rent the entire complex, they have to pay (I think) $450 per condo, even if they only rent 1-2 weeks in the condo. So French Ridge in Breck is managed by our management company, and if there are 30 units, they have to pay 30 X $450 to rent anything in the complex. That comes off of the top of the net income for the HOA. And of course there are accommodations taxes that match hotels on top of that.

Hawaii is not the only place in the country that is having issues with housing shortages and extremely high cost of living.

 

[csodjd]

Hawaiians are upset that they can't afford to live there anymore. They're upset that their culture has been commoditized -- something now packaged and sold to tourists. And they're upset that everyone gets to enjoy their island except them -- they're too busy working to pay the bills, and it's entirely too crowded.

They have legitimate beefs. And I think it would be better to listen to them than to suggest they return to stone-age technology.

It’s all fair concerns. It’s not unique to Hawaii. You hear that from Lake Tahoe to Hilton Head. And countless places around the world. (Venice comes right to mind.) But they also can’t have their cake and eat it too. It is that tourism that generates the money to pave the roads. Listening is easy. Suggesting solutions — solutions that solve a problem without creating a different one — that’s a lot harder.

It is often the outcome of the politicians they put in office. HHV is about to build another 500-room hotel. Why? Well, it was approved through the political process, because the tax revenue cannot be resisted.

 

[ScoopKona]

Hawaii is not the only place in the country that is having issues with housing shortages and extremely high cost of living.

It’s all fair concerns. It’s not unique to Hawaii. You hear that from Lake Tahoe to Hilton Head. And countless places around the world. (Venice comes right to mind.) But they also can’t have their cake and eat it too. It is that tourism that generates the money to pave the roads. Listening is easy. Suggesting solutions — solutions that solve a problem without creating a different one — that’s a lot harder.

The difference with island problems is there is no "hinterlands" to move to. There are already lots of people who live on one side of the island and work on the other side because that's the only way the numbers work. When visitors outnumber residents, that's a problem.

Also, there's the whole issue of Hawaiian culture, which is more than just hula competitions during Merrie Monarch. Since Hawaiians are starting to feel like a conquered people as opposed to "fellow Americans," I don't think improvement is likely in the near future.

 

[csodjd]

The difference with island problems is there is no "hinterlands" to move to. There are already lots of people who live on one side of the island and work on the other side because that's the only way the numbers work. When visitors outnumber residents, that's a problem.

Also, there's the whole issue of Hawaiian culture, which is more than just hula competitions during Merrie Monarch. Since Hawaiians are starting to feel like a conquered people as opposed to "fellow Americans," I don't think improvement is likely in the near future.

And so what are your solutions?

As an employer I had a policy… don’t bring me a problem or complaint without a solution. I may not agree with your solution, but if you can’t even propose one then my interest in your complaint drops dramatically, because now it is just a whine.

 

[Tamaradarann]

I think at times there is confusion (or conflation) between history and reality. Hawaii is today what Hawaii is today. It may be different than what it used to be, but “authentic” is in the eye of the beholder. What most mean by “authentic“ is really just a way of saying “like it used to be.” Are all of you that cry for Hawaii to return to being “real and authentic” prepared to get rid of Costco, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, supermarkets, shopping malls, strip centers, and other “trappings” of modern life (like paved roads)? None of that is “authentic” (historical) in Hawaii.

I understand and agree with what you are saying. I have talked story with Native Hawaiians who want the Hotels and US Govenrment to give back all of the land that they have and have built on to the Native Hawaiians or if they keep it pay rent to the native Hawaiians. That is not going to happen.

While I am in total simpathy with the Native Hawaiian thinking that the US Military and Government did and shouldn't have gotten involved with the overthrow of the Monarch in on Janauray 17, 1893. I have this thought about history. If the Monarach had continued into the 20th Century and Japan had the same designs on taking over islands in the Pacific as did happen in 1941 and 1942. What would the Hawaiian Islands had to endure. For example like the Philipines had to endure. Would the US have gotten into the war at all if there wasn't a Pearl Harbor Fleet to attack?

Just thinking about how history could have been significantly changed.

 

[ScoopKona]

And so what are your solutions?

Reduce tourist numbers by the third that Maui residents are pushing for. If it were up to me -- by removing resorts or converting them to long-term rental housing. Maui is going for "tourist fees," which isn't going to limit tourism by nearly enough. Everyone who continues visiting will necessarily have to pay more. And property taxes on short-term accommodation will need to go up by at least a third to cover the shortfall -- I have said this many times.

Residents need far higher minimum wages -- $15/hr is laughable anywhere in the state. And, yes, that's going to push prices even higher.

And finally, the counties need to approve more apartment complexes -- the last one in Waikaloa filled up basically instantly. Out-of-state investors aren't going to snap these up. And it provides basic housing near where the jobs are.

I've said this many times. In reply, it's always a bunch of "as long as the prices don't go up for me personally..."

EDIT -- and I have laid out plans for a tourism-funded Hawaii Permanent Fund much like Alaska's oil-funded Permanent Fund. If Hawaiian workers saw direct economic benefit to tourism, there wouldn't be nearly as much friction.

The reason people stop loving tourism when they move to Hawaii is the curtain is pulled back. Residents finally see what's going on behind the scenes - where they don't have a small army of people working like crazy to make their stay enjoyable.

 

[vacationtime1]

Reduce tourist numbers by the third that Maui residents are pushing for. If it were up to me -- by removing resorts or converting them to long-term rental housing. Maui is going for "tourist fees," which isn't going to limit tourism by nearly enough. Everyone who continues visiting will necessarily have to pay more. And property taxes on short-term accommodation will need to go up by at least a third to cover the shortfall -- I have said this many times.

Residents need far higher minimum wages -- $15/hr is laughable anywhere in the state. And, yes, that's going to push prices even higher.

And finally, the counties need to approve more apartment complexes -- the last one in Waikaloa filled up basically instantly. Out-of-state investors aren't going to snap these up. And it provides basic housing near where the jobs are.

I've said this many times. In reply, it's always a bunch of "as long as the prices don't go up for me personally..."

EDIT -- and I have laid out plans for a tourism-funded Hawaii Permanent Fund much like Alaska's oil-funded Permanent Fund. If Hawaiian workers saw direct economic benefit to tourism, there wouldn't be nearly as much friction.

The reason people stop loving tourism when they move to Hawaii is the curtain is pulled back. Residents finally see what's going on behind the scenes - where they don't have a small army of people working like crazy to make their stay enjoyable.

How does your plan to build five new short-term rental units fit into this?

I agree with much of what you say about over-tourism, but if the goal is to reduce the number of tourists, the total number of "tourist accomodations" must be reduced. Anyone wanting to build new units should be required to purchase and take out of commission the same number of existing units if the plan is to work.

 

[csodjd]

Reduce tourist numbers by the third that Maui residents are pushing for. If it were up to me -- by removing resorts or converting them to long-term rental housing. Maui is going for "tourist fees," which isn't going to limit tourism by nearly enough. Everyone who continues visiting will necessarily have to pay more. And property taxes on short-term accommodation will need to go up by at least a third to cover the shortfall -- I have said this many times.

Residents need far higher minimum wages -- $15/hr is laughable anywhere in the state. And, yes, that's going to push prices even higher.

And finally, the counties need to approve more apartment complexes -- the last one in Waikaloa filled up basically instantly. Out-of-state investors aren't going to snap these up. And it provides basic housing near where the jobs are.

I've said this many times. In reply, it's always a bunch of "as long as the prices don't go up for me personally..."

EDIT -- and I have laid out plans for a tourism-funded Hawaii Permanent Fund much like Alaska's oil-funded Permanent Fund. If Hawaiian workers saw direct economic benefit to tourism, there wouldn't be nearly as much friction.

The reason people stop loving tourism when they move to Hawaii is the curtain is pulled back. Residents finally see what's going on behind the scenes - where they don't have a small army of people working like crazy to make their stay enjoyable.

What I hear is a LOT of government, government intervention, regulation, price setting, etc. Basically a government regulatory takeover. Feels not very ”American.” I’m not sure that is really what people in Hawaii want. “Affordable” housing is an elusive thing unless it is owned and operated by the government and I’m pretty sure THAT is not what Hawaiian’s want.

The reality is that tourism is Hawaii’s primary product. It is what the state has most of to “sell” to others. It is the state’s primary industry and according to online sources generates 21% of Hawaii’s GDP. That’s not likely to change.

On the flip side, the reality is also that most of the goods consumed in Hawaii are expensive because they are made elsewhere and transportation to Hawaii is expensive. So most widgets cost more in Hawaii than on the mainland.

I think there is an additional challenge that Hawaii faces, and that is that a large part of the state is rooted in the military. That’s not a “free market” in terms of salaries, and it generates a lot of people living on a fixed income. I belong to a private club on Oahu. There is a constant push-tug battle created by the desire to spend more to make the club nicer (and just keep up with the rising cost of maintenance) and the inability of members on fixed income pensions to afford higher dues.

 

[ScoopKona]

The reality is that tourism is Hawaii’s primary product. It is what the state has most of to “sell” to others. It is the state’s primary industry and according to online sources generates 21% of Hawaii’s GDP. That’s not likely to change.

What can change is visitor numbers -- it is far better to have one visitor who spends $1,000,000 than it is to have 1,000,000 who spend $1 each.
That's the scheme Maui is attempting -- less numbers, same revenue. I wish them well in their endeavor. I'm largely removed from tourist problems (except Ironman, which is appalling). If Hawaii also wants to throttle tourism like Maui, fine. If not, that's fine too. I have a feeling that if Maui succeeds, all the islands will follow suit.

 

[csodjd]

What can change is visitor numbers -- it is far better to have one visitor who spends $1,000,000 than it is to have 1,000,000 who spend $1 each.
That's the scheme Maui is attempting -- less numbers, same revenue. I wish them well in their endeavor. I'm largely removed from tourist problems (except Ironman, which is appalling). If Hawaii also wants to throttle tourism like Maui, fine. If not, that's fine too. I have a feeling that if Maui succeeds, all the islands will follow suit.

The Big Island, it seems, is less at risk of being affected because, well, it’s big and the resorts are sort of off on their own. Maui tourism is so compressed into two areas it is a lot more challenging I‘m sure. The big problem is that governments are notoriously bad at doing most things well and so if residents are looking for the County government to protect them, disappointment is likely.

I‘m not sure it really IS better to have one visitor spend $1M. I think it is best to find the happy spot where you have a lot of visitors, but not more than the infrastructure and community can handle, and that number generates the maximum revenue to the community, plenty of jobs, etc. If one could blink their eyes and tomorrow the hotels and timeshares in Wai’alae and Kaanapali and Kapalua were gone, would Maui be a better place? I don’t think so. There would be massive unemployment, people would be homeless in no time, small businesses that thrive on tourists would go under, there would be no money for fire and police and schools, it would be an economic disaster.

 

[ScoopKona]

1) I think it is best to find the happy spot where you have a lot of visitors, but not more than the infrastructure and community can handle, and that number generates the maximum revenue to the community, plenty of jobs, etc.

2) If one could blink their eyes and tomorrow the hotels and timeshares in Wai’alae and Kaanapali and Kapalua were gone, would Maui be a better place? I don’t think so.

[Numbers added for clarity.]

1) I think we're well past the "more than the infrastructure and community can handle" on Maui. And we're approaching that on most other islands -- including the touristy parts of Big Island. (One more straw would break the camel's back.)

2) I'm not suggesting ALL the resorts on Maui, or even parts of Maui go away. But if Maui really wants 1/3 less visitors, they'll have to remove 1/3 of the accommodations -- now or eventually. I've suggested an eminent-domain lottery. Just keep pulling names out of a hat until short-term rooms are down by a third. That will of course spur AirBnB investment. So something will have to be done about that, too.

My point hasn't changed in months -- if Maui wants to reduce head count by one third, there will be pain on the part of the rest of the tourists. That's roughly 70,000 people a month who are restricted from visiting. I think they should go the Alaska/St. Bart's route -- high end, boutique tourism and a trust funded by tourist revenues which benefits the workers.

 

[csodjd]

[Numbers added for clarity.]

1) I think we're well past the "more than the infrastructure and community can handle" on Maui. And we're approaching that on most other islands -- including the touristy parts of Big Island. (One more straw would break the camel's back.)

2) I'm not suggesting ALL the resorts on Maui, or even parts of Maui go away. But if Maui really wants 1/3 less visitors, they'll have to remove 1/3 of the accommodations -- now or eventually. I've suggested an eminent-domain lottery. Just keep pulling names out of a hat until short-term rooms are down by a third. That will of course spur AirBnB investment. So something will have to be done about that, too.

My point hasn't changed in months -- if Maui wants to reduce head count by one third, there will be pain on the part of the rest of the tourists. That's roughly 70,000 people a month who are restricted from visiting. I think they should go the Alaska/St. Bart's route -- high end, boutique tourism and a trust funded by tourist revenues which benefits the workers.

I don’t know much about eminent domain, but, even if the County could afford it, I don’t believe you can use it to reduce tourism by taking over huge hotel or timeshare complexes that you allowed to be built.

 

[ScoopKona]

I don’t know much about eminent domain, but, even if the County could afford it, I don’t believe you can use it to reduce tourism by taking over huge hotel or timeshare complexes that you allowed to be built.

I didn't allow them to be built in the first place.
But the pendulum has swung from the "Hawaii Tourist Development Council" for marketing to "Native Hawaiian We're Sick of Your [Excrement]" marketing.
We'll see. I keep an eye on Maui because they're the bellweather.

 

[csodjd]

I didn't allow them to be built in the first place.
But the pendulum has swung from the "Hawaii Tourist Development Council" for marketing to "Native Hawaiian We're Sick of Your [Excrement]" marketing.
We'll see. I keep an eye on Maui because they're the bellweather.

I obviously didn’t mean you. But they can‘t be built without several levels of governmental approval.

 

[ScoopKona]

I obviously didn’t mean you. But they can‘t be built without several levels of governmental approval.

And government makes mistakes, which must then be rectified. Maui, and much of the state, is asking for less events and less numbers. Government is going to be slow to react -- but it is clearly starting to react. Switching to a new marketing strategy, tossing Ironman men in 2023 and Maui's proposed fees are just the beginning.

 

[pedro47]

Hawaiians are upset that they can't afford to live there anymore. They're upset that their culture has been commoditized -- something now packaged and sold to tourists. And they're upset that everyone gets to enjoy their island except them -- they're too busy working to pay the bills, and it's entirely too crowded.

They have legitimate beefs. And I think it would be better to listen to them than to suggest they return to stone-age technology.

Thanks, I have a better perspective now what is happening in Hawaii.

 

[csodjd]

And government makes mistakes, which must then be rectified. Maui, and much of the state, is asking for less events and less numbers. Government is going to be slow to react -- but it is clearly starting to react. Switching to a new marketing strategy, tossing Ironman men in 2023 and Maui's proposed fees are just the beginning.

Yes, they do make mistakes. They (government) also are quite notorious for swinging pendulums waaaayyyy to far one way or the other, resulting in bad outcomes and ordinary people paying the price. Government is NOT good at anticipating outcomes or having a plan.

 

[pedro47]

I didn't allow them to be built in the first place.
But the pendulum has swung from the "Hawaii Tourist Development Council" for marketing to "Native Hawaiian We're Sick of Your [Excrement]" marketing.
We'll see. I keep an eye on Maui because they're the bellweather.

Wow! This is very interesting.

 

[pedro47]

What is the average home value for a native Hawaiian and what is the average cost for a new home built in Maui 2022?

 

[ScoopKona]

What is the average home value for a native Hawaiian and what is the average cost for a new home built in Maui 2022?

On Maui, the average home sale is almost $1 million. And half a million buys a dilapidated place in the middle of nowhere in need of leveling and replacing. Check Realtor dot com.

When I was searching for a house, it took me five years of searching. Every day during my lunch break for five years -- scanning real estate listings until the farm popped up.

 

[pedro47]

On Maui, the average home sale is almost $1 million. And half a million buys a dilapidated place in the middle of nowhere in need of leveling and replacing. Check Realtor dot com.

When I was searching for a house, it took me five years of searching. Every day during my lunch break for five years -- scanning real estate listings until the farm popped up.

At that new home price even stateside that will probably eliminate 80% of the population, especially first times buyers.

 

[Tamaradarann]

At that new home price even stateside that will probably eliminate 80% of the population, especially first times buyers.

I think that at that home price that would eliminate about 95% of the population. I know our income is over $150K/year and we couldn't afford a million dollar home here in Hawaii.

 

[Tamaradarann]

[Numbers added for clarity.]

1) I think we're well past the "more than the infrastructure and community can handle" on Maui. And we're approaching that on most other islands -- including the touristy parts of Big Island. (One more straw would break the camel's back.)

2) I'm not suggesting ALL the resorts on Maui, or even parts of Maui go away. But if Maui really wants 1/3 less visitors, they'll have to remove 1/3 of the accommodations -- now or eventually. I've suggested an eminent-domain lottery. Just keep pulling names out of a hat until short-term rooms are down by a third. That will of course spur AirBnB investment. So something will have to be done about that, too.

My point hasn't changed in months -- if Maui wants to reduce head count by one third, there will be pain on the part of the rest of the tourists. That's roughly 70,000 people a month who are restricted from visiting. I think they should go the Alaska/St. Bart's route -- high end, boutique tourism and a trust funded by tourist revenues which benefits the workers.

Well are far as straw breaking the camel's back: We know that Hilton Grand Vacations is building a 12 buidling complex in Kihei and a new timeshare on the opposite side of Waikiki from the HHV. . Hilton Hotels is builiding 500 room Hotel in the HHV. HGVC also has been expandiing the Waikiola Timeshare Complex every few years and there is more land they own there to building more.

However, going back to the title of this thread:

Maui Hotels Have the Highest Rates But the Lowest Occupancy​

Isn't that a movement in the direction that you want? Simply a combination of that and raising the GET but eliminating the GET on unprepared food, which someone said that the new Governor wants to do, would certainly make it more expensive for tourists to come to specifically Maui and Hawaii in general. I believe the Legislature passed the bill for the minium wage will go up to $18/hour by 2025 or so that is another Govenment step in the right direction. In view of all of the negatives, I am very postive on the future of Hawaii.