Maui Hotels Have the Highest Rates But the Lowest Occupancy

[Luanne]

Kona coffee is an excellent brand of Hawaiian Coffee. Now I can understand why one client would purchased 90% of your product. IMHO

There are differences in Kona coffee. Some are excellent, some aren't. You can't just lump them all together.

 

[Tamaradarann]

I think you are right in general. I know I want luxury and that is usually not real and authentic. I also think there might be a niche that wants real and authentic. Hawaii is not viewed as real and authentic so Hawaii is not likely to attract people looking for this experience.

If I wanted real and authentic, I would pick someplace else to travel. But let’s say there is a niche, perhaps Hawaii’s ”new” marketing might attract that kind of tourist. There are many people in California who enjoy farm-fresh organic foods. They might enjoy staying on a farm if the experience were not completely rustic. OTOH, many well-off people still like a basic experience. For a basic experience without phones and TVs, you can still charge premium prices.

This may not be a great comparison but when Caneel Bay existed, they offered very basic rooms, more like dorm rooms with no phones and TVs, but they charged premium prices for folks who wanted a basic experience and the ability to disconnect. Perhaps for USVIs, that was an authentic experience. LOL

Hawaii can be real and authentic but it depends on where you look. You don't have to live stay outside in a thached Hale for it to be a real and authentic experience. Waikiki and the Poloneisian Cultural Center for the most part are NOT real and authentic. Walking up to the Mausoleum where Queen Liliokolani is buried on Janauary 17th, the anniverary of the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy and walking down to the Iolani Palace with the huge crowd of Native Hawaiians is a real and authentic experience. Listening to the Royal Hawaiian Band at the Iolani Palace on the Friday adjacent to this anniverary and hearing story and songs about the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is a real and authentic experience. Attending the Merry Monarch Hula Festival in the week after Easter on the Island of Hawaii is a real and authentic experience. There are some other events that we have been to over the years where we have expereinced Hawaiians Performing free events that were real and authentic and not commercial.

One of the ways you can tell if it is real and authentic is the price. The first 2 are free events. The Merry Monarch is unbelievably inexpensive for the amount of entertainment during that week. They are NOT commerical events.

 

[Tamaradarann]

I think you are right in general. I know I want luxury and that is usually not real and authentic. I also think there might be a niche that wants real and authentic. Hawaii is not viewed as real and authentic so Hawaii is not likely to attract people looking for this experience.

If I wanted real and authentic, I would pick someplace else to travel. But let’s say there is a niche, perhaps Hawaii’s ”new” marketing might attract that kind of tourist. There are many people in California who enjoy farm-fresh organic foods. They might enjoy staying on a farm if the experience were not completely rustic. OTOH, many well-off people still like a basic experience. For a basic experience without phones and TVs, you can still charge premium prices.

This may not be a great comparison but when Caneel Bay existed, they offered very basic rooms, more like dorm rooms with no phones and TVs, but they charged premium prices for folks who wanted a basic experience and the ability to disconnect. Perhaps for USVIs, that was an authentic experience. LOL

Hawaii can be real and authentic but it depends on where you look. You don't have to live stay outside in a thached Hale for it to be a real and authentic experience. Waikiki and the Poloneisian Cultural Center for the most part are NOT real and authentic. Walking up to the Mausoleum where Queen Liliokolani is buried on Janauary 17th, the anniverary of the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy and walking down to the Iolani Palace with the huge crowd of Native Hawaiians is a real and authentic experience. Listening to the Royal Hawaiian Band at the Iolani Palace on the Friday adjacent to this anniverary and hearing story and songs about the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is a real and authentic experience. Attending the Merry Monarch Hula Festival in the week after Easter on the Island of Hawaii is a real and authentic experience. There are some other events that we have been to over the years where we have expereinced Hawaiians Performing free events that were real and authentic and not commercial.

One of the ways you can tell if it is real and authentic is the price. The first 2 are free events. The Merry Monarch is unbelievably inexpensive for the amount of entertainment during that week. They are NOT commerical events.

 

[ScoopKona]

Let's try it this way. Imagine that Disneyland/World decided that the lines are too long, the park is too crowded, and guests would enjoy themselves more if the daily visitor count was halved.

First of all, all the prices would double. From parking to buying mouse-ear hats, to the cost of sausages and beer at Epcot Germany. Would the Disney themepark market be able to withstand paying double? If the answer is, "half the people who are currently Disney themepark visitors could," then it's a viable strategy.

If the answer is, "enough people who don't currently visit Disney themeparks now would if the crowds were reduced by half" then it's also a viable strategy.

The people who can't afford the new pricing structure will be left behind. And they'll complain online to anyone who will listen. But Disney is going to do what's best for Disney.

Hawaii is basically treated like a theme park by tourists -- so I don't see any real difference.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Let's try it this way. Imagine that Disneyland/World decided that the lines are too long, the park is too crowded, and guests would enjoy themselves more if the daily visitor count was halved.

First of all, all the prices would double. From parking to buying mouse-ear hats, to the cost of sausages and beer at Epcot Germany. Would the Disney themepark market be able to withstand paying double? If the answer is, "half the people who are currently Disney themepark visitors could," then it's a viable strategy.

If the answer is, "enough people who don't currently visit Disney themeparks now would if the crowds were reduced by half" then it's also a viable strategy.

The people who can't afford the new pricing structure will be left behind. And they'll complain online to anyone who will listen. But Disney is going to do what's best for Disney.

Hawaii is basically treated like a theme park by tourists -- so I don't see any real difference.

The difference is that Disney is a private company as are the Hotels on Maui. Therefore, they can charge whatever they want. However, placing a tax on tourists only for coming, not a GET or an Accomodations Tax which everyone pays, treats tourists in a special negative way. It is a Blatant Chintzy Tax which tell tourists "your not wanted". That is not Aloha. That is not what Hawaii wants.

 

[ScoopKona]

That is not what Hawaii wants.

It's clearly not what YOU want. But I'm fine with it. Jack the taxes if that's what residents want. The locals have been on the [excrement] end of the stick for far too long. If they want to throttle tourism, I'm going to cheer them on and wish them well. I'm also fine with kicking Ironman to the curb here on Big Island. And they're tossing the men's race right off the island -- which is a good start. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[slip]

We keep posting about all this stuff but on Maui, the only thing starting are some parking fees. The governor may try for a visitor fee state wide but we don't know if that will pass yet.

I haven't heard of anything else proposed or moving forward.

 

[slip]

An update at the state level was on the news today.

Resolving tourism marketing dispute will fall to incoming governor

Incoming governor Josh Green says he will broker a deal to end the dispute over how to market tourism to Hawaii. That's despite the Ige Administrations last-ditch effort to have the contracts rebid.

www.hawaiinewsnow.com

 

[Tamaradarann]

It's clearly not what YOU want. But I'm fine with it. Jack the taxes if that's what residents want. The locals have been on the [excrement] end of the stick for far too long. If they want to throttle tourism, I'm going to cheer them on and wish them well. I'm also fine with kicking Ironman to the curb here on Big Island. And they're tossing the men's race right off the island -- which is a good start. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

I am a resident and I have consistently said that Hawaii should raise taxes. I am for raising the GET on everything but unprepared food. I am for raising property taxes and having them pay for better salaries for teachers and bettter school facilities. Both of those taxes are already in place so easily they can be raised without implementing new systems to collect them. Setting up the $50 tourist tax will entail setting up a new system to collect it. How much will it cost to collect it and how long will it take to implement it?

 

[pedro47]

Hawaii can be real and authentic but it depends on where you look. You don't have to live stay outside in a thached Hale for it to be a real and authentic experience. Waikiki and the Poloneisian Cultural Center for the most part are NOT real and authentic. Walking up to the Mausoleum where Queen Liliokolani is buried on Janauary 17th, the anniverary of the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy and walking down to the Iolani Palace with the huge crowd of Native Hawaiians is a real and authentic experience. Listening to the Royal Hawaiian Band at the Iolani Palace on the Friday adjacent to this anniverary and hearing story and songs about the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is a real and authentic experience. Attending the Merry Monarch Hula Festival in the week after Easter on the Island of Hawaii is a real and authentic experience. There are some other events that we have been to over the years where we have expereinced Hawaiians Performing free events that were real and authentic and not commercial.

One of the ways you can tell if it is real and authentic is the price. The first 2 are free events. The Merry Monarch is unbelievably inexpensive for the amount of entertainment during that week. They are NOT commerical events.

On our next visit to Hawaii in 2023.. I will try to see the real and the authentic Hawaii experiences. I enjoy touring the back roads of the country and experences the beautiful blue waters around the Island.

 

[sponger76]

I am a resident and I have consistently said that Hawaii should raise taxes. I am for raising the GET on everything but unprepared food. I am for raising property taxes and having them pay for better salaries for teachers and bettter school facilities. Both of those taxes are already in place so easily they can be raised without implementing new systems to collect them. Setting up the $50 tourist tax will entail setting up a new system to collect it. How much will it cost to collect it and how long will it take to implement it?

The thing with property taxes is that a lot of local families already can barely afford to live in Hawaii. Raising property taxes just makes it harder for them to have a roof over their head. Even for the ones who can only afford to rent, because the landlords will pass along those cost increases.

 

[Tamaradarann]

The thing with property taxes is that a lot of local families already can barely afford to live in Hawaii. Raising property taxes just makes it harder for them to have a roof over their head. Even for the ones who can only afford to rent, because the landlords will pass along those cost increases.

That is a good point, particularly the one about landlords passing along those costs. If property taxes were raised they could also raise the exception for living on the property to offset the increase, but if it is a rental that wouldn't help.

One of the reasons that the real estate costs are so high in Hawaii is that with the property taxes so low that absentee owners can afford to purchase expensive homes and not have the high tax carrying cost. A million dollar condo in hawaii pays about $3K in property taxes. On Long Island the property taxes would be $30K. If a perspective buyer was going to have to pay that much in property taxes they may not want to buy the property for that price.

Also, the teachers in Hawaii are under paid for the very responsible and important job of educating our youth. The families of teachers, just like other families, can barely afford to live in Hawaii. That is one of the reasons so many of them leave. Teachers are required to have a high level of education and their job is extremely important for the future of our youth. They shouldn't have to struggle to afford to live in Hawaii.

 

[ScoopKona]

The thing with property taxes is that a lot of local families already can barely afford to live in Hawaii. Raising property taxes just makes it harder for them to have a roof over their head. Even for the ones who can only afford to rent, because the landlords will pass along those cost increases.

Especially for the ones who can only afford to rent. The best way to raise tourist fees is to raise them directly on the tourists for doing tourist-related activities -- renting cars and hotel rooms. I don't care about the optics. If Maui wants to raise fees to dissuade head count, and then do something useful with the revenue, let them. See how it goes. We've tried "giving tourists everything they want" and that isn't working.

 

[ScoopKona]

If a perspective buyer was going to have to pay that much in property taxes they may not want to buy the property for that price.

The prospective real estate investor doesn't care about property taxes. What's $30K in taxes on a property which doubles in value every few years? My property taxes are closer to six figures than five. Who cares? It's tripled in value since I bought it. That's pennies on the dollar. Capital gains (if I were to ever sell) would hurt far worse than property taxes -- even if Hawaii paid the highest rates in the country.

You're not thinking like a real estate investor. Rental income doesn't matter if it appreciates fast enough. Taxes don't matter if rental income is good enough. Nothing matters if appreciation beats most investment vehicles.

 

[slip]

That is a good point, particularly the one about landlords passing along those costs. If property taxes were raised they could also raise the exception for living on the property to offset the increase, but if it is a rental that wouldn't help.

One of the reasons that the real estate costs are so high in Hawaii is that with the property taxes so low that absentee owners can afford to purchase expensive homes and not have the high tax carrying cost. A million dollar condo in hawaii pays about $3K in property taxes. On Long Island the property taxes would be $30K. If a perspective buyer was going to have to pay that much in property taxes they may not want to buy the property for that price.

Also, the teachers in Hawaii are under paid for the very responsible and important job of educating our youth. The families of teachers, just like other families, can barely afford to live in Hawaii. That is one of the reasons so many of them leave. Teachers are required to have a high level of education and their job is extremely important for the future of our youth. They shouldn't have to struggle to afford to live in Hawaii.

And it's not just teachers. Many jobs in Hawaii pay the same or less than on the mainland, even with the higher cost of living.

I know my company paid a 25% pay Differential because of the higher cost of living. That was fine for me, after being established and having had worked at the company for 35 years. It probably still wouldn't have been enough for some younger employees that aren't as established as we were yet, as in our kids out of the house, home paid for and those type of things.

It's tough living here and I don't see how some people make it work.

 

[Luanne]

And it's not just teachers. Many jobs in Hawaii pay the same or less than on the mainland, even with the higher cost of living.

I know my company paid a 25% pay Differential because of the higher cost of living. That was fine for me, after being established and having had worked at the company for 35 years. It probably still wouldn't have been enough for some younger employees that aren't as established as we were yet, as in our kids out of the house, home paid for and those type of things.

It's tough living here and I don't see how some people make it work.

Way back in 1970 I visited Honolulu with one of my best friends. We met several people our age who were living in Honolulu. They said they manged by having multiple jobs, and multiple roommates.

 

[sponger76]

That is a good point, particularly the one about landlords passing along those costs. If property taxes were raised they could also raise the exception for living on the property to offset the increase, but if it is a rental that wouldn't help.

One of the reasons that the real estate costs are so high in Hawaii is that with the property taxes so low that absentee owners can afford to purchase expensive homes and not have the high tax carrying cost. A million dollar condo in hawaii pays about $3K in property taxes. On Long Island the property taxes would be $30K. If a perspective buyer was going to have to pay that much in property taxes they may not want to buy the property for that price.

Also, the teachers in Hawaii are under paid for the very responsible and important job of educating our youth. The families of teachers, just like other families, can barely afford to live in Hawaii. That is one of the reasons so many of them leave. Teachers are required to have a high level of education and their job is extremely important for the future of our youth. They shouldn't have to struggle to afford to live in Hawaii.

I'm not worried just about the teachers. Why raise taxes on other people who can barely survive just so the teachers can live better than those they are supposed to serve? If you make things more affordable for everyone instead of tailoring it and taking from everyone else to give to teachers, the teachers' cost of living will improve as well.

*edit to add: Also, low taxes are a factor but not THE main factor in high real estate prices. It's supply and demand. Lots more people/businesses want to own property in Hawaii than there is available real estate, particularly on O'ahu where the vast majority of the population resides. Cutting down on the non-residents purchasing property, especially homes (all types, not just single family), will at least help somewhat.

 

[slip]

Way back in 1970 I visited Honolulu with one of my best friends. We met several people our age who were living in Honolulu. They said they manged by having multiple jobs, and multiple roommates.

That's still going on today. Along with multi-generational families in houses. It's really tough.

 

[Luanne]

That's still going on today. Along with multi-generational families in houses. It's really tough.

I would imagine it is. Prices haven't gotten any lower and I doubt salaries haven't kept up.

 

[ScoopKona]

I'm not worried just about the teachers. Why raise taxes on other people who can barely survive just so the teachers can live better than those they are supposed to serve? If you make things more affordable for everyone instead of tailoring it and taking from everyone else to give to teachers, the teachers' cost of living will improve as well.

100% agree. This is why my solution would be to create a Hawaii permanent fund using money raised from tourism. The best time to do this was 80 years ago. But the next best time to do this is right now. Once the fund grows to the point where it is self sustaining, start paying each family an annual stipend, much like Alaska does with their permanent fund. (They pay each citizen, including children. I don't think that's a good way forward. One check per family.)

Means-test the top third/half of the population out of the picture -- use property taxes to decide who is passed over for permanent fund money. (Nobody who lives in a $5 million house should get a check). If Hawaiians saw a direct benefit from all the tourism, they might not be so down on visitor numbers.

And, frankly, we can really soak the tourists in the beginning to kick-start the fund. If they can afford $30 for an order of tater tots, they have no right to snivel about fees.

 

[davidvel]

On our next visit to Hawaii in 2023.. I will try to see the real and the authentic Hawaii experiences. I enjoy touring the back roads of the country and experences the beautiful blue waters around the Island.

Be careful on those back roads. According to some, those authentic locals just might despise you being there. With all the anti-tourist vitriol fomenting hate, who knows what they might do.

 

[Tamaradarann]

I'm not worried just about the teachers. Why raise taxes on other people who can barely survive just so the teachers can live better than those they are supposed to serve? If you make things more affordable for everyone instead of tailoring it and taking from everyone else to give to teachers, the teachers' cost of living will improve as well.

*edit to add: Also, low taxes are a factor but not THE main factor in high real estate prices. It's supply and demand. Lots more people/businesses want to own property in Hawaii than there is available real estate, particularly on O'ahu where the vast majority of the population resides. Cutting down on the non-residents purchasing property, especially homes (all types, not just single family), will at least help somewhat.

The real estate taxes don't have to be raised equally on everybody. Already there are different rates for more expensive real estate versus less expensive. The taxes on the more expensive real estate say over $1,000,000 can be raised much more. Also, there is an exemption for owner occupancy of a residence. That exemption can be increased so that owner occupied real estate taxes don't go up at all. Alot of real estate in Hawaii is second or third homes and investment property. The taxes on that property is where the major increases should go.

 

[slip]

I am a resident and I have consistently said that Hawaii should raise taxes. I am for raising the GET on everything but unprepared food. I am for raising property taxes and having them pay for better salaries for teachers and bettter school facilities. Both of those taxes are already in place so easily they can be raised without implementing new systems to collect them. Setting up the $50 tourist tax will entail setting up a new system to collect it. How much will it cost to collect it and how long will it take to implement it?

Sounds like Governor Green likes your idea on no tax on food. It's one of his 5 points he want to tackle in his first 100 days. It was one of his promises about affordability. The clip below is from Hawaiinewsnow.




“The fifth priority is really, I think dealing with affordability,” Green said.

He says in his first 100 days of office he plans to propose Hawaii get rid of the tax on food and medication.

“It will carry a cost with it. We do have a surplus,” said Green. “It’s something that is the right thing to do. It’s been discussed for a long time. Those are very regressive taxes.”

 

[csodjd]

Hawaii can be real and authentic but it depends on where you look. You don't have to live stay outside in a thached Hale for it to be a real and authentic experience. Waikiki and the Poloneisian Cultural Center for the most part are NOT real and authentic. Walking up to the Mausoleum where Queen Liliokolani is buried on Janauary 17th, the anniverary of the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy and walking down to the Iolani Palace with the huge crowd of Native Hawaiians is a real and authentic experience. Listening to the Royal Hawaiian Band at the Iolani Palace on the Friday adjacent to this anniverary and hearing story and songs about the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is a real and authentic experience. Attending the Merry Monarch Hula Festival in the week after Easter on the Island of Hawaii is a real and authentic experience. There are some other events that we have been to over the years where we have expereinced Hawaiians Performing free events that were real and authentic and not commercial.

One of the ways you can tell if it is real and authentic is the price. The first 2 are free events. The Merry Monarch is unbelievably inexpensive for the amount of entertainment during that week. They are NOT commerical events.

I think at times there is confusion (or conflation) between history and reality. Hawaii is today what Hawaii is today. It may be different than what it used to be, but “authentic” is in the eye of the beholder. What most mean by “authentic“ is really just a way of saying “like it used to be.” Are all of you that cry for Hawaii to return to being “real and authentic” prepared to get rid of Costco, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, supermarkets, shopping malls, strip centers, and other “trappings” of modern life (like paved roads)? None of that is “authentic” (historical) in Hawaii.

 

[ScoopKona]

Be careful on those back roads. According to some, those authentic locals just might despise you being there. With all the anti-tourist vitriol fomenting hate, who knows what they might do.

The amount of hate crimes over the past 20 years has been so low that it's not even worth mentioning. Hawaii is safer than pretty-much anywhere on the mainland. I'm less worried about violent crime there than I am here on vacation in California.

I occasionally see locals saying rude things to tourists. But more often I see tourists saying rude things to locals. Far too many visitors think that spending money on a Hawaiian vacation also gives them entitlement. The fact that locals are being squeezed out economically and forced to move to Las Vegas or Texas (where the numbers work) is a constant source of frustration. And it's a source of frustration which isn't being addressed -- except with lip service.