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Maui Hotels Have the Highest Rates But the Lowest Occupancy

ScoopKona

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At that new home price even stateside that will probably eliminate 80% of the population, especially first times buyers.

Prices are higher in Maui than other neighbor islands. There are programs for first time buyers. But they fall far short -- the economic reality is that home ownership isn't in the cards except for high-wage earning families.

Isn't that a movement in the direction that you want? Simply a combination of that and raising the GET but eliminating the GET on unprepared food, which someone said that the new Governor wants to do, would certainly make it more expensive for tourists to come to specifically Maui and Hawaii in general. I believe the Legislature passed the bill for the minium wage will go up to $18/hour by 2025 or so that is another Govenment step in the right direction. In view of all of the negatives, I am very postive on the future of Hawaii.

$18 is still too low to make a living. Stupidly low. Like, "what are they thinking? Don't they live here, too?" too low. Even without payroll taxes taken out that's still less than $3K a month. That doesn't cover both rent and food. Let alone anything else.

$18/hr would have made sense 20 years ago. But today? It's not enough for one person to live without roommates and a lot of side-hustling. Inflation just keeps chugging along. So when that increase finally happens, it's already too late.

And here's the thing, as the old uncles and aunties pass away, their property is largely being sold, not handed down. That means investors grab up more and more. Investors offer cash and more than list price -- it's a bad financial move not to sell to them.
 

Tamaradarann

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Prices are higher in Maui than other neighbor islands. There are programs for first time buyers. But they fall far short -- the economic reality is that home ownership isn't in the cards except for high-wage earning families.



$18 is still too low to make a living. Stupidly low. Like, "what are they thinking? Don't they live here, too?" too low. Even without payroll taxes taken out that's still less than $3K a month. That doesn't cover both rent and food. Let alone anything else.

$18/hr would have made sense 20 years ago. But today? It's not enough for one person to live without roommates and a lot of side-hustling. Inflation just keeps chugging along. So when that increase finally happens, it's already too late.

And here's the thing, as the old uncles and aunties pass away, their property is largely being sold, not handed down. That means investors grab up more and more. Investors offer cash and more than list price -- it's a bad financial move not to sell to them.

I don't disagree that $18/hour is still too low to live on in Hawaii. However, everything needs to be put in perspective. The minimum wage was I beleive about $10/hour before! The Federal minimum wage is about $7/hour. So this is progress even though it may not be enough. Furthermore, that minimum wage is usually for unskilled uneducated workers. We should be striving for the future generation to NOT be in that working category.

That brings me back to my education thinking that I put forth before. Hawaii needs to be placing a greater emphasis on getting its youth to get more education. Good education where there is a need. Doctors, Nurses, Medical Technicans, Teachers, Technologists, Skilled Tradesworkers. Parents shouldn't let their children settle on a minimum wage job. That is OK while your going to school but the focus and goal should be to get the education to fill a needed job at a much higher salary level. Furthermore, to retain those skilled workers the salaries for those positions should be better than the other states since the cost of living is higher than the other states.
 

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Doctors, Nurses, Medical Technicans, Teachers, Technologists, Skilled Tradesworkers. Parents shouldn't let their children settle on a minimum wage job. That is OK while your going to school but the focus and goal should be to get the education to fill a needed job at a much higher salary level.

Not everyone is capable of passing organic chemistry to become physicians, or can install a roof. Teachers is a particularly bad example because they need to obtain a master's degree and then get paid bupkis.

The minimum wage needs to be enough that a person can scratch out an existence -- it's not just for teenagers working their first job. That's the kind of thinking that got us into this position in the first place.
 

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This article calls Hawaii's tourism recession proof. I don't know if I agree with that. I thought past recessions had slow downs.

 

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Tamaradarann

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Not everyone is capable of passing organic chemistry to become physicians, or can install a roof. Teachers is a particularly bad example because they need to obtain a master's degree and then get paid bupkis.

The minimum wage needs to be enough that a person can scratch out an existence -- it's not just for teenagers working their first job. That's the kind of thinking that got us into this position in the first place.
I agree not everyone can pass organic chemistry or install a roof. However, there are many other needed trades other than roofing. Furthermore, there are many jobs like home health aid or home care aid that are desparately needed and don't take a degree or skilled labor but they are poorly paid. Those desparately needed jobs need to pay significatnly more than minimum wage to get people to take those jobs rather than the easier more glamorous jobs that people may take to just "scratch out an existence". Scratching out an existence sounds like one step above being homeless. Parents need to guide the children to strive to do better than just "Scratch out an existence." Better teachers in addition to good parental guidance is needed for our youth.

I think that teachers are a partiuclarly good example of a very needed job that should be paid more to keep good people doing it in Hawaii. You don't have to convince me that teachers are poorly paid in Hawaii I made that assertion earlier in this discussion and others critisized me for wanting their salaries to be higher.
 

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I agree not everyone can pass organic chemistry or install a roof. However, there are many other needed trades other than roofing. Furthermore, there are many jobs like home health aid or home care aid that are desparately needed and don't take a degree or skilled labor but they are poorly paid. Those desparately needed jobs need to pay significatnly more than minimum wage to get people to take those jobs rather than the easier more glamorous jobs that people may take to just "scratch out an existence". Scratching out an existence sounds like one step above being homeless. Parents need to guide the children to strive to do better than just "Scratch out an existence." Better teachers in addition to good parental guidance is needed for our youth.

I think that teachers are a partiuclarly good example of a very needed job that should be paid more to keep good people doing it in Hawaii. You don't have to convince me that teachers are poorly paid in Hawaii I made that assertion earlier in this discussion and others critisized me for wanting their salaries to be higher.
You weren't criticized for wanting their salaries to be higher. You were criticized for wanting their salaries to be higher at the expense of everybody else.
 

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You weren't criticized for wanting their salaries to be higher. You were criticized for wanting their salaries to be higher at the expense of everybody else.
The first issue is should the salaries for teachers be higher. I feel they should be and so does ScoopKona. Then by definition when you raise salaries for some group of people and others don't get the same raise then you are advantaging some group and placing others are at a realative disadvantage. Since the Governor is not going to pay teachers more out of his own pocket, the only way to get more funding to raise teacher's salaries is tax increases. The property tax in Hawaii is so low compared to other areas of the United States that pay their teachers better so you could raise the property tax to pay teachers better. You could raise other taxes to pay for the higher teacher salaries but.....

Those taught by teachers in a location are residents of that location. Therefore, the logical place to fund schools is the property tax. Hawaii doesn't fund education thru the property tax. Furthermore, there is an elitist class system that Hawaii has in their overall education system which is detrimental to lower income residents and in particular Native Hawaiians. The higher income people can pay for and send their children to private schools. Therefore, those that attend public schools are only the lower income people of which is made up of a significant number of Native Hawaiians. Since the higher income people don't send their children to public schools they don't care if public schools are well funded and the teachers salaries are adaquate to retain good teachers. They care about private schools.
 

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The first issue is should the salaries for teachers be higher. I feel they should be and so does ScoopKona. Then by definition when you raise salaries for some group of people and others don't get the same raise then you are advantaging some group and placing others are at a realative disadvantage. Since the Governor is not going to pay teachers more out of his own pocket, the only way to get more funding to raise teacher's salaries is tax increases. The property tax in Hawaii is so low compared to other areas of the United States that pay their teachers better so you could raise the property tax to pay teachers better. You could raise other taxes to pay for the higher teacher salaries but.....

Those taught by teachers in a location are residents of that location. Therefore, the logical place to fund schools is the property tax. Hawaii doesn't fund education thru the property tax. Furthermore, there is an elitist class system that Hawaii has in their overall education system which is detrimental to lower income residents and in particular Native Hawaiians. The higher income people can pay for and send their children to private schools. Therefore, those that attend public schools are only the lower income people of which is made up of a significant number of Native Hawaiians. Since the higher income people don't send their children to public schools they don't care if public schools are well funded and the teachers salaries are adaquate to retain good teachers. They care about private schools.
I've been in Hawaii before when teachers went on strike and ended up winning large pay raises. Did they do a better job teaching? No, everything was the same. Did the people they serve end up having better lives? No. So while what teachers do is an important job that I appreciate, I don't think it merits advantaging them by taking even more from other Hawaii residents. The way to make teachers lives better is to find ways to improve all Hawaii residents lives. That means finding ways to make housing and other goods as affordable as possible, or by finding revenue from non-Hawaii residents.
 

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That means finding ways to make housing and other goods as affordable as possible, or by finding revenue from non-Hawaii residents.

We're in 100% agreement on this point. Hawaii isn't Hawaii without Hawaiians. And they should be able to live here, regardless of what they want to do as a career.

My wife and I were just talking about this as we drive around California on vacation -- Hawaii is what happens when "the reservation" is the nicest land in the country. I think the only way forward is to build a lot more housing -- either housing that investors don't want; or are absolutely forbidden to ever own. An affordable place to live is the biggest problem. Solving that takes care of many other problems at a stroke.
 

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We're in 100% agreement on this point. Hawaii isn't Hawaii without Hawaiians. And they should be able to live here, regardless of what they want to do as a career.

My wife and I were just talking about this as we drive around California on vacation -- Hawaii is what happens when "the reservation" is the nicest land in the country. I think the only way forward is to build a lot more housing -- either housing that investors don't want; or are absolutely forbidden to ever own. An affordable place to live is the biggest problem. Solving that takes care of many other problems at a stroke.
You seem to be advocating for a tailored form of socialism. Definitely a "plan of attack" that is far removed from the burdens of capitalism.

Your first line begs the question. What if they don't want a career, or even to work hard? Where do you draw the (arbitrary) lines? You, over there, good, you're working hard enough to deserve "affordable" housing... but you, on the left, you're not working hard enough. Is that how it would work?
 

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slip

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Back to the original issue for a moment. It seems that mother nature may have a say in handling tourism in Maui all by herself, without touching taxes at all....


This realtor on Maui just put out a video on it yesterday. He walks right up to where the sidewalk stops.

 

Tamaradarann

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I've been in Hawaii before when teachers went on strike and ended up winning large pay raises. Did they do a better job teaching? No, everything was the same. Did the people they serve end up having better lives? No. So while what teachers do is an important job that I appreciate, I don't think it merits advantaging them by taking even more from other Hawaii residents. The way to make teachers lives better is to find ways to improve all Hawaii residents lives. That means finding ways to make housing and other goods as affordable as possible, or by finding revenue from non-Hawaii residents.
I DON'T AGREE.
 

Tamaradarann

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We're in 100% agreement on this point. Hawaii isn't Hawaii without Hawaiians. And they should be able to live here, regardless of what they want to do as a career.

My wife and I were just talking about this as we drive around California on vacation -- Hawaii is what happens when "the reservation" is the nicest land in the country. I think the only way forward is to build a lot more housing -- either housing that investors don't want; or are absolutely forbidden to ever own. An affordable place to live is the biggest problem. Solving that takes care of many other problems at a stroke.

On the issue of Housing and a related topic of Hawaii Homelands I totally agree with you. Hawaiian Homeland grants seem to take forever. Generations that have applied for grants have died and their children have died waiting for the land. Building affordable housing instead of multimillion dollar house and condos is another initative that I have very much in favor of. Scaling the real estate taxes not only on property value but on income is another thing that I favor to enable people with lower incomes to buy and stay in homes.

Raising the property taxes, with the tax safe guards of lower property values and lower income that I stated above. on high priced real estate, investment real estate, absentee out of state owners, high income people will help in these initiative while raising more income.

The comment that they should be able to live here, regardless of what they want to do as a career opens up so many questions and qualifications. What is a career? Is it enough to work part time? Our son is a consultant. At times he is busy. At times he is not. Is working once in a while enough of a career? Is it Ok to be a artist but never sell a painting or sell one once a year? How about a surf instructor who gets a client once in a while? In an extreme case, my husband wanted to be the manager of the NY Mets when he was young. He never made it. If he was to wait for that opportunity instead of becoming an Engineer would that have made the qualtification of what he wanted to do as a career? Who is the judge?

On the expenditure side, does one have a family to support or want a family? It is much financially feasible to live in Hawaii as a single person in a room or a studio rather than a 3 or more bedroom house or condo. Perhaps that may need to be influential in career decision making.
 

Tamaradarann

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I've been in Hawaii before when teachers went on strike and ended up winning large pay raises. Did they do a better job teaching? No, everything was the same. Did the people they serve end up having better lives? No. So while what teachers do is an important job that I appreciate, I don't think it merits advantaging them by taking even more from other Hawaii residents. The way to make teachers lives better is to find ways to improve all Hawaii residents lives. That means finding ways to make housing and other goods as affordable as possible, or by finding revenue from non-Hawaii residents.

After the teacher's strike they were not given sufficient pay raises and they have to pay a significant amount for their health insurance. Teachers on Long Island make about twice what teachers make in Hawaii and their health insurance is free while they are working and if they retire in the system. Also, teacher's retirement is based on their income, so after teachers retire their income continues to be low even though they gave the best part of their lives to teaching the youth of our future.
 

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After the teacher's strike they were not given sufficient pay raises and they have to pay a significant amount for their health insurance. Teachers on Long Island make about twice what teachers make in Hawaii and their health insurance is free while they are working and if they retire in the system. Also, teacher's retirement is based on their income, so after teachers retire their income continues to be low even though they gave the best part of their lives to teaching the youth of our future.
You cannot keep using Long Island as a benchmark for teacher salaries. If you want to be fair, compare each state with cost of living and you will see an entirely different picture compared to other professions:


In comparisons to other states, Hawaii teacher compensation is ranked in the top third:

 

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absentee out of state owners
That would be unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment. States cannot treat residents of other states differently or otherwise burden the right to travel freely among the states.
 

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That would be unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment. States cannot treat residents of other states differently or otherwise burden the right to travel freely among the states.
It all depends on how the statute is written.

A flat tax on non-Hawaii tourists such as the $50/pp suggested could be seen as affecting the right of a non-Hawaii resident to travel to Hawaii and therefore violate our constitutional right to travel (yes, the U.S. Constitution protects mainlanders' right to travel to Hawaii).

A differential property tax, however (such as taxing second homes at a much higher rate) would not have the same result because it is possible (and likely) that Honolulu residents have second homes on one of the outer islands. Ergo, it would not be discriminatory against out-of-state residents because it applies to all second homes.
 

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It all depends on how the statute is written.

A flat tax on non-Hawaii tourists such as the $50/pp suggested could be seen as affecting the right of a non-Hawaii resident to travel to Hawaii and therefore violate our constitutional right to travel (yes, the U.S. Constitution protects mainlanders' right to travel to Hawaii).

A differential property tax, however (such as taxing second homes at a much higher rate) would not have the same result because it is possible (and likely) that Honolulu residents have second homes on one of the outer islands. Ergo, it would not be discriminatory against out-of-state residents because it applies to all second homes.
That would be unworkable. What’s a ”second home?” How do you police that?

It also reminds me of the many attempts to sidestep illegal discrimination by giving it an appearance of non-discrimination purpose or language that appears no–discriminatory on its face knowing fully that it will have a discriminatory effect. Attempts are made all the time to do that to cover for race, gender, and age discrimination. Doesn’t work.

Of course there is also the pragmatic problem — who do you think donates more money to politicians in Hawaii, the wealthy (that can afford a second home on another island) or hourly wage workers?

The regulatory power Hawaii has in its toolbox that would not be hard to use, if they were wanted to use it, is zoning. They don’t HAVE to approve building new hotels (like the one they just approved at HHV) or expanding exiting facilities. They can also control density. And, apart from taxes, they can impose FEES on facilities that are central to tourism, which will be passed on to those tourists. But these things all have adverse consequences on employment and governmental revenue.
 

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That would be unworkable. What’s a ”second home?” How do you police that?

Easy. Jack property taxes through the roof. And then use the homestead exemption and low-income housing exemption to bring them back to Earth. Watch how many people get Hawaii drivers licenses and register to vote if that happens.
Both exemptions already exist.
 

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After the teacher's strike they were not given sufficient pay raises and they have to pay a significant amount for their health insurance. Teachers on Long Island make about twice what teachers make in Hawaii and their health insurance is free while they are working and if they retire in the system. Also, teacher's retirement is based on their income, so after teachers retire their income continues to be low even though they gave the best part of their lives to teaching the youth of our future.
It was sufficient enough to put them a fair amount above the average income in the state at that time.
 

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That would be unworkable. What’s a ”second home?” How do you police that?

It also reminds me of the many attempts to sidestep illegal discrimination by giving it an appearance of non-discrimination purpose or language that appears no–discriminatory on its face knowing fully that it will have a discriminatory effect. Attempts are made all the time to do that to cover for race, gender, and age discrimination. Doesn’t work.

Of course there is also the pragmatic problem — who do you think donates more money to politicians in Hawaii, the wealthy (that can afford a second home on another island) or hourly wage workers?

The regulatory power Hawaii has in its toolbox that would not be hard to use, if they were wanted to use it, is zoning. They don’t HAVE to approve building new hotels (like the one they just approved at HHV) or expanding exiting facilities. They can also control density. And, apart from taxes, they can impose FEES on facilities that are central to tourism, which will be passed on to those tourists. But these things all have adverse consequences on employment and governmental revenue.
Your getting into drafting issues; the answer has to do with where one lives for more than 183 days/year. And in many ways, it is self-policing. Anyone who claims their Hawaii vacation home to be their primary residence will get to pay Hawaii income taxes (and may also get to pay income taxes where they really live; high income tax states like California and NY make it their business to track high income people who claim to have moved out of state to verify that they actually did relinquish their former residence).
 

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Your getting into drafting issues; the answer has to do with where one lives for more than 183 days/year. And in many ways, it is self-policing. Anyone who claims their Hawaii vacation home to be their primary residence will get to pay Hawaii income taxes (and may also get to pay income taxes where they really live; high income tax states like California and NY make it their business to track high income people who claim to have moved out of state to verify that they actually did relinquish their former residence).
Still would not work. I am getting into “drafting issues” because you cannot draft a law whose purpose or effect is to place an obstacle or burden on the right to interstate travel or that favors one set of property owners or residents over another set based on their travel or residence in another state. You COULD do it with respect to foreign travel or residents, but not American. Those are always thrown out by the courts and have been for decades.

That aside, it is not the owner of a second home that comes to Hawaii 3-4 times a year, or spends the winter at their resort home in Kona, that is the “tourist” problem you’re trying to address. I have four friends with $5M+ homes at Kohanaiki. They spend Nov-March over there, They play golf, go out to dinner, go to Costco, etc. They don’t do any tourist stuff. They pay hefty taxes on those grossly overpriced homes, and crazy dues for their CC. They pay for their pool service and gardening year round. That is who you WANT supporting your economy and employing your residents.
 
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