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Mass Mailing To Worldmark Owners

ouaifer

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Judy said:
Philip,
I support your effort to get an independent owner elected to the Worldmark BOD. I wish that you would publicly answer the criticisms/questions that have been posted. I think it would give you more credibility and improve your chances of success.


Judy,
This is not a political forum and will not be turned in to one! If you have questions/personal concerns you feel need answering, please do it with PMs or e-mails. If this turns into a political forum, it will be closed.

ouaifer
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TUGBrian

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Re: Keep the discussion polite...but keep it going!

Steve said:
Indeed, I believe that this sort of discussion...the pros and cons of a developer controlled board vs. an independent owner controlled board...is the reason that TUG was started in the first place. Regardless of what side of the debate you are on, this is a very important topic for the present and future of timesharing.

Steve

:clap: I agree
 

roadsister

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ouaifer said:
Judy,
This is not a political forum and will not be turned in to one! If you have questions/personal concerns you feel need answering, please do it with PMs or e-mails. If this turns into a political forum, it will be closed.

ouaifer
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Many of us agree. Thank you.
 

boyblue

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I want to vouch for Philip

Having done business with Philip and also seeking his assistance on occasion over the years I believe I can attest to the character of the man.

PA is rock solid.

For those of you with opposing views I suggest you wait until we see the content of the mail out (he said he would post it) before you cast dispersions.
 

Robnsunny

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ouaifer said:
Judy,
This is not a political forum and will not be turned in to one! If you have questions/personal concerns you feel need answering, please do it with PMs or e-mails. If this turns into a political forum, it will be closed.

ouaifer
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ouaifer,
This is NOT politics. This is a TIMESHARE discussion of broad interest. If this thread is closed then TUG will have failed in one of it's primary purposes.
 

PA-

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Robnsunny said:
ouaifer,
This is NOT politics. This is a TIMESHARE discussion of broad interest. If this thread is closed then TUG will have failed in one of it's primary purposes.


pol·i·tics (pŏl'ĭ-tĭks)
n.

The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs.


I suppose, based on the def. above, some of the posts on this thread could be considered political.

I suppose, based on the def. above, every thread on TUG could be considered political.

I think what Ouifer means (correct me if I'm wrong), is that we don't want arguing or conflict amongst members. In other words, be nice and respect other's views. Is that right, O?
 

Carolinian

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There is also a thread on this subject on www.timeshareforums.com If this one is closed, the discussion can continue there.

The current attempt by Westgate's ''Mr. Seagull'' to take over Bluegreen, which has no member input on its board,really puts a spotlight on this issue.
 

PA-

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Carolinian said:
There is also a thread on this subject on www.timeshareforums.com If this one is closed, the discussion can continue there.

The current attempt by Westgate's ''Mr. Seagull'' to take over Bluegreen, which has no member input on its board,really puts a spotlight on this issue.

I didn't know about that attempt. That would indeed be unfortunate. He makes Trendwest seem like Santa in comparison.
 

BocaBum99

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Carolinian said:
There is also a thread on this subject on www.timeshareforums.com If this one is closed, the discussion can continue there.

The current attempt by Westgate's ''Mr. Seagull'' to take over Bluegreen, which has no member input on its board,really puts a spotlight on this issue.

I totally agree.
 

Steve

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Robnsunny said:
ouaifer,
This is NOT politics. This is a TIMESHARE discussion of broad interest. If this thread is closed then TUG will have failed in one of it's primary purposes.

I agree wholeheartedly.

This type of discussion is exactly what TUG is all about. There should be no need to go to another board to discuss this type of issue. If there is, then TUG risks becoming irrelevant...and other websites will overtake it as the premier source of independant timeshare information.

Steve
 
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PA-

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Steve said:
I agree wholeheartedly.

This type of discussion is exactly what TUG is all about. There should be no need to go to another board to discuss this type of issue. If there is, then TUG risks becoming irrelevant...and other websites will overtake it as the premier source of independant timeshare information.

Steve

It's what TUG used to be about. 2 - 3 years ago, nobody would have ever even imagined a reason for a different forum. TUG used to be it. Now...?
 

CaliDave

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Tug has turned into... no controversy, no disagreements, (especially with moderators) and everything should be love and harmony.

This type of situation will be the downfall of Tug. This is why many of the previous top posters on Tug, left and are more active on other sites.

by the way... I think PA is upstanding and is very ethical. If I owned Worldmark.. he would definately have my vote and support.

I question those who have very few posts. Look at the regualrs on Tug , they all know PA and what he is about.
 

RichM

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CaliDave said:
Tug has turned into... no controversy, no disagreements, (especially with moderators) and everything should be love and harmony.

This type of situation will be the downfall of Tug. This is why many of the previous top posters on Tug, left and are more active on other sites.

Sounds like the developer-run Trendwest forum.. which is why wmowners.com was created.


___________________
WorldMark Owners' Community -
WMLogo-sig.gif
- www.wmowners.com
 

TUGBrian

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Relax, the thread wont be closed unless the participants start getting catty or violent (in an online fashion).
 

cabobill

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CaliDave said:
Tug has turned into... no controversy, no disagreements, (especially with moderators) and everything should be love and harmony.

This type of situation will be the downfall of Tug. This is why many of the previous top posters on Tug, left and are more active on other sites.

by the way... I think PA is upstanding and is very ethical. If I owned Worldmark.. he would definately have my vote and support.

I question those who have very few posts. Look at the regualrs on Tug , they all know PA and what he is about.

I must respectfully disagree...

PA is using this BB and any other he can get on as a springboard for his political aspirations to control and/or overthrow the Worldmark the Club Board of Directors. He may keep his act pretty clean here, but he publicly calls our incumbents , (among other things) idiots, stupid, incompetent, and uninformed. Most of the Worldmark owners I'm acquainted with also know what Philip Abdouch is all about and YOU can have him! We'd just as soon have him meddle with your resort and stay away from the Worldmark Board. The majority of well-informed Worldmark Owners that have been around for more than two years are perfectly happy with how things are run around here.

Is this thread POLITICAL? By PA's definition above, you bet your sweet BIPPY it is!

With all due respect....
 

Carolinian

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The real problem is having a developer controlled BOD. No matter how competent and smart they may be, they have a huge conflict of interest.
The same is true of a management controlled BOD. The ONLY way that members are going to be protected and have their interests looked after is to achieve a member controlled BOD.
 

Kevin

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BocaBum99 said:
And which of these descriptors is false?

As a WM owner since 2001. I say... for the most part...

None of them!

JMHO.

Kevin
 

PA-

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cabobill said:
.... but he publicly calls our incumbents , (among other things) idiots, stupid, incompetent, and uninformed. ....

I'm not sure that I've ever used the words idiot or stupid to describe another person. Though if I ever did, I'm sure that someone will point it out. I don't believe that any of the board members are idiots or stupid. I do believe that most of them are uninformed, and plan to stay that way. And that necessarily makes them incompetent.

In describing some of the board's hard to understand positions, actions, and comments, you may have easily interpreted them to be stupid or idiotic, and you couldn't be blamed for doing so.
 
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normbailey

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cabobill said:
I must respectfully disagree...

PA is using this BB and any other he can get on as a springboard for his political aspirations to control and/or overthrow the Worldmark the Club Board of Directors. He may keep his act pretty clean here, but he publicly calls our incumbents , (among other things) idiots, stupid, incompetent, and uninformed. Most of the Worldmark owners I'm acquainted with also know what Philip Abdouch is all about and YOU can have him! We'd just as soon have him meddle with your resort and stay away from the Worldmark Board. The majority of well-informed Worldmark Owners that have been around for more than two years are perfectly happy with how things are run around here.

Is this thread POLITICAL? By PA's definition above, you bet your sweet BIPPY it is!

With all due respect....

Bill, you left out "worthless". Maybe all of us WorldMark owners, when we see the candidates' position statements, will be treated to not only the criticisms of the club, but the solutions they plan to implement.

After all, it doesn't take much more than a 2-digit IQ to stand up and say someone doesn't like the way things are and that something needs to be done. Unfortunately, that's where many complaints leave off. Personally, I've seen the club triple in the number of resorts in our system since I bought in just 9 years ago. That didn't happen by accident. It happened as a result of the efforts by the developer.

If the board is at fault for any of the current issues being tossed around, I'd love to see a candidate who has the vision, and the ability to clearly communicate, exactly what the member(s) of the board did or are doing wrong, and how they, the candidate, would do differently in order to change the results.
 

PA-

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normbailey said:
...Maybe all of us WorldMark owners, when we see the candidates' position statements, will be treated to not only the criticisms of the club, but the solutions they plan to implement.
.....

I didn't see anyone criticize the club. Just the board of directors. Feel free to disagree if you wish, but afford everyone the same right to understand the issues as you have. Not everybody hangs out on the internet, hence the mailing. If you feel that you could better educate the owners on the issues, be my guest.

As you say, anyone can criticize the actions of others.
 

PA-

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normbailey said:
......

If the board is at fault for any of the current issues being tossed around, I'd love to see a candidate who has the vision, and the ability to clearly communicate, exactly what the member(s) of the board did or are doing wrong, and how they, the candidate, would do differently in order to change the results.

I think I can clearly communicate the problem with the current board's way of running the club.

They allow Trendwest to decide where they will add a resort, how many credits it will be assigned, the seasonal calendar, and all other matters without the input of the board. Then, regardless of whether the board agrees or not, the board signs the documents taking the property and giving the credits to Trendwest. As a matter of fact, were you aware that the board allows Dave Herrick to sign conveyance docs for Worldmark? So he can sign as the Grantee and the Grantor, and the board wouldn't necessarily even know. I can show you conveyance docs that have been signed by Dave, if you don't believe me.

When I've asked the board why, they say they have no right to input on these issues. But that's not true, they can simply decline to sign until the differences are worked out. Trendwest can't FORCE them to accept a bad deal, Worldmark has to sign.

Further, the board hasn't even challenged Trendwest's assertion that they can take any unit at any resort away from Worldmark, and replace it with another WITHOUT THE BOARD'S APPROVAL. The governing docs clearly don't allow that, but our board refused to challenge that statement.

Now, what would I do differently? I would inform Dave that he can't sign for Worldmark. I would inform Trendwest that the board would be apprised of any upcoming locations, and would have to agree with them. If Trendwest can present a good case for adding in Iowa, and the board agreed, so be it. I would inform Trendwest that the criteria for credit assignments would be "relative use-value", as required by Worldmark's governing docs. If costs are higher, Trendwest can just increase the price per credit, not the number of credits. That formula worked pre-cendant, no reason it still can't. And I would come up with objective ways to set the calendar, either by using local hotel rates, or the II/RCI calendars or some other objective manner. No more monkeying with the calendar.

There's no reason the relationship couldn't be a win-win for both parties, just because they would have to treat us fairly, at arm's length. 99% of business is conducted at arm's length in this country, and it still gets done.
 

normbailey

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PA- said:
I think I can clearly communicate the problem with the current board's way of running the club.

They allow Trendwest to decide where they will add a resort, how many credits it will be assigned, the seasonal calendar, and all other matters without the input of the board. Then, regardless of whether the board agrees or not, the board signs the documents taking the property and giving the credits to Trendwest. As a matter of fact, were you aware that the board allows Dave Herrick to sign conveyance docs for Worldmark? So he can sign as the Grantee and the Grantor, and the board wouldn't necessarily even know. I can show you conveyance docs that have been signed by Dave, if you don't believe me.

When I've asked the board why, they say they have no right to input on these issues. But that's not true, they can simply decline to sign until the differences are worked out. Trendwest can't FORCE them to accept a bad deal, Worldmark has to sign.

Further, the board hasn't even challenged Trendwest's assertion that they can take any unit at any resort away from Worldmark, and replace it with another WITHOUT THE BOARD'S APPROVAL. The governing docs clearly don't allow that, but our board refused to challenge that statement.

Now, what would I do differently? I would inform Dave that he can't sign for Worldmark. I would inform Trendwest that the board would be apprised of any upcoming locations, and would have to agree with them. If Trendwest can present a good case for adding in Iowa, and the board agreed, so be it. I would inform Trendwest that the criteria for credit assignments would be "relative use-value", as required by Worldmark's governing docs. If costs are higher, Trendwest can just increase the price per credit, not the number of credits. That formula worked pre-cendant, no reason it still can't. And I would come up with objective ways to set the calendar, either by using local hotel rates, or the II/RCI calendars or some other objective manner. No more monkeying with the calendar.

There's no reason the relationship couldn't be a win-win for both parties, just because they would have to treat us fairly, at arm's length. 99% of business is conducted at arm's length in this country, and it still gets done.

Philip,

Thank you. That is exactly what I was hoping to see. And I hope the other candidates do as good a job of explaining their positions on their perceived issues and explicit steps they would take for resolution.

I agree with you that there's no reason the relationship between the developer and the BOD can't be win-win. It's not the "what" that you and I bump heads over, it's the "how". And when using the term win-win, one has to accept the fact that the opposition decides the definition for one of those "wins". Learning how to gain the opposition's trust is the biggest challenge to reaching a true win-win. That's where tact and the art of negotiation come into play. But I won't go into that again. I've hammered on that point many times before.

And as I've also said many times before, I still believe that the board NEEDS independent ownership among its members. Active, effective, and dynamic. But, as history has proven, an effective independent board member has to be non-threatening or they'll get no response from the developer. And, as you've pointed out, if they're too easily steamrolled, they run the same risk of being ineffectual as someone who is too threatening to the current board.
 

rickandcindy23

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If you want to get down to the "nitty gritty" for wanting an owner-controlled board, or at least a few active owners on the board, since some former members have failed to be effective, the reason for doing that is clear to me.

Some independent resorts have great HOA's that actually "manage" everything, from the choice of toilet paper that will be in the units, to the decisions on which roofing company to use. I am personally going to help choose furniture as a board member, at the resort I own. It is a job that I have wanted since I saw the pink chairs in the living rooms. :rolleyes: We can also fire and hire whatever management company we choose and can give limited or limitless power to that company, depending on how involved we want to be as an owner-controlled board.

Worldmark issues are of a much bigger scale and would require lots more time and work, but if an owner is willing to step forward, then that owner should be applauded for caring enough to want the job.

It is not that the developer is not continuing to provide a good product, it is about building an equitable system where the developer does not control everything. Our founding fathers 230 years ago saw a need to create a "checks and balances" system that keeps each branch of the government in check. It is a perfect system and can be loosely applied to timeshares, even when the developers are still building.

I am waiting for a great outcome with the effort, for my own personal reasons. PAHIO has been increasing our fees exponentially every year. In 2003 our fees were $674, now they are $822 for 2006. The board is made up of all developer-chosen people. I would like to think that someone like PA would come forward and try to change that for our resorts. Who is watching the purse strings at PAHIO and what can we do about the rising costs? They can send a statement, outlying exactly why the fees are increasing, but who am I to question the costs? I would support anyone who wanted to analyze the financials.

Worldmark owners should be applauding PA's efforts. I wonder how many of these negative people really are so naive as to believe that the developer is going to be offended with a few more owners on the board? They will work fine with whatever candidate the proxies support, whether it is PA or someone else. But unless you band together, the board will be "stacked" by the developer again. It is about cooperation. I guess I don't understand all the negativity, it seems detrimental to keeping Worldmark the great system it is.

I have met with PA in person, we own at one of the same resorts. He is a nice guy, laid back, not what you are picturing at all. He has the best of intentions with this effort. Clearly, having owners on a board for the owners makes more sense than having developers control it. After all, it is the HOA.
 
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PA-

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Cindy, thanks for the support, but I don't think most of the posters here are negative or argumentative. Everyone has invested a lot in Worldmark in more ways than one, and everyone has their opinion. That's a good thing.

I really don't believe that anyone is taking this personally, many of the people that disagree with me have my complete respect. I'd love to meet CaboBill, Norm and Fred in person. While those 3 are among the most out-spoken in disagreement of my methods or motives, they are also the most articulate about why, and their opinions are every bit as valid as mine. Somewhere between the picture they paint, and the one I paint, the truth is probably to be found. That's the positive aspect of this type of discussion.
 
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