Marriott / Vistana / Westin merger

[DavidnRobin]

Think…
By law, the vistana contracts cannot be changed unless 100% of all owners agree to do so.

I have a Lotto Ticket to the next drawing that is guaranteed to win.


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[sail27bill]

I sat for a presentation at Oceana Palms 2 weeks ago and was told by a salesperson that Marriott was not going to offer Vistana owners a cheap buy-in cost but that they would have to buy a minimum number of points in order to play in the Marriott sandbox (1500 points I believe, but the number was not finalized as of yet). The reasoning was that Marriott paid a lot to acquire Vistana and they felt that eventually the cost of points would skyrocket and Marriott would make loads of profit. I am in the wait and see approach as I own both Vistana weeks and Marriott points. Besides, situations and policies are constantly being updated so I believe it is better to wait for the official announcement than be left upside down or disappointed.

 

[daviator]

As someone else pointed out, it was my understanding that pretty much all of Vistana's remaining inventory (much of it is kind of the dregs of locations and weeks) was put into the various Flex trusts. Presumably a lot of those are still unsold, but they’re owned by the trusts now.

Can MVC take weeks OUT of those trusts? I’m thinking they probably can, but I don’t know with certainty. They’d have to leave enough inventory to cover all of the Flex points that have been sold to owners, of course, but if they pulled out weeks to put into this new program, it could significantly impact reservation availability for Flex owners. (It would essentially be like every Flex point had been sold, and it would become really challenging to get the location and dates you want to reserve.)

Personally, I have little interest in the MVC properties and don’t see value in paying for access to them, especially if it’s true that our ownerships would be severely undervalued in the new scheme. But if these latest rumors – yes, they’re just rumors – are true, I can look forward to several years of owner updates that are really easy to walk away from with wallet intact. Plus my mom owns in the MVC program and I’ll probably end up inheriting that at some point, so I’ll get into it that way.

 

[ocdb8r]

I sat for a presentation at Oceana Palms 2 weeks ago and was told by a salesperson that Marriott was not going to offer Vistana owners a cheap buy-in cost but that they would have to buy a minimum number of points in order to play in the Marriott sandbox (1500 points I believe, but the number was not finalized as of yet).

This is effectively the same "offer" available to current Marriott resale week owners (MVC regularly permits reslae owners to "enroll" their resale week if they purchase a minimum number of points). I would be surprised if they don't do ANYthing different to incentivize Vistana owners to participate. There are several permutations MVC could do here....when DP launched there was an "enrollment" fee for direct purchasers and a higher fee for resale owners. They could do the same with Vistana owners. They could also tier it three ways - one fee for direct purchasers, one for resale mandatory resorts and one for resale voluntary resorts. Of course I could be wrong, but I still think MVC NEEDS Vistana owners to participate to make any "integration" successful.

Can MVC take weeks OUT of those trusts? I’m thinking they probably can, but I don’t know with certainty.

Yes, there is a mechanism for weeks to be pulled out of the trust, but I don't think there is meaningful inventory except at those few resorts designated as pure trust from the beginning (Westin Cabo, Westin Cancun, Nanea and part of St. John). I also think Nanea has quite a high percentage sold so there would be limited inventory to pull from there). I just don't think it's sufficient to create meaningful "integration".

 

[CalGalTraveler]

IDK...I purchased Vistana deeded HI OF without access to MVC. No expectation beyond this value.

We only use our HI week and dont trade.

I doubt MVC has anything to offer in trade that I cannot get via RCI or SOs.

When I want short stays I will use my SOs or resale HGVC points for *free* without enrollment or additional MF. HGVC are (or will be) in many of the same locations with Diamond acquisition.

Unless they offer super cheap enrollment e.g. $500 there is no point. Renting out the unit is a moneymaker not a money taker and we can use the money to go anywhere.

Bottomline: no value prop for us.

 

[kozykritter]

Had an owners update today at Sheraton Steamboat. Bottom line is they didn't have any official information about the upcoming combination/integration and said to ignore all the speculation here ;-) The manager did say that Vistana will receive equanimity when it comes to integration with MVC (vague enough?) and scoffed at the 1:32 ratio that has frequently been mentioned here. Their emphasis was on buying more Vistana to ensure 12 to 8 month priority access regardless of what happens. Since all my ownership is Sheraton Flex, that meant Westin Flex was offered and declined. Without official information, I'm not ready to invest any money that might actually end up being in the wrong direction for how I travel and then have to invest more money to fix it once everything is announced.

 

[ocdb8r]

IDK...I purchased Vistana deeded HI OF without access to MVC. No expectation beyond this value.

We only use our HI week and dont trade.

I doubt MVC has anything to offer in trade that I cannot get via RCI or SOs.

When I want short stays I will use my SOs or resale HGVC points for *free* without enrollment or additional MF. HGVC are (or will be) in many of the same locations with Diamond acquisition.

Unless they offer super cheap enrollment e.g. $500 there is no point. Renting out the unit is a moneymaker not a money taker and we can use the money to go anywhere.

Bottomline: no value prop for us.

Totally get where you are coming from and for your type of ownership, all makes complete sense. I would just keep a couple of things in mind:

1) most owners are not like Tuggers; the idea of renting their unit to take the cash and then use it for an alternative vacation is intimidating to many. I have some family friends who bought several Vistana units direct before I got ahold of them (and shook them vigorously) and even with me by their side offering help, they struggle to do much more than just trade in the internal system (and so for people like them, MVC might be able to sell them on enrolling to open a new world of potential resorts to trade into - and I think the direct trading offers much more ease and certainty than II or RCI);

2) we have no idea how they will integrate Vistana. When the MVC DP program was launched, owners of weeks like yours (OF Hawaii, OF Aruba...etc) found themselves in a VERY strong position. They went from their primary MVC trading option being week for week in II (with possibly an upgrade in size for the additional trade strength of their weeks) to being able to convert their valuable weeks into sufficient DPs to get multiple weeks in other MVC resorts. Just don't be so sure there's no value proposition - your preference for renting your valuable weeks has been driven by the fact the Vistana points system basically values your weeks the same as (a prime week) in Palm Dessert or Orlando (with the exception of the recent bump afforded you for the view). It's possible the DP value of your week in the integrated system is such you might find some (occasional) value there.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Totally get where you are coming from and for your type of ownership, all makes complete sense. I would just keep a couple of things in mind:

1) most owners are not like Tuggers; the idea of renting their unit to take the cash and then use it for an alternative vacation is intimidating to many. I have some family friends who bought several Vistana units direct before I got ahold of them (and shook them vigorously) and even with me by their side offering help, they struggle to do much more than just trade in the internal system (and so for people like them, MVC might be able to sell them on enrolling to open a new world of potential resorts to trade into - and I think the direct trading offers much more ease and certainty than II or RCI);

2) we have no idea how they will integrate Vistana. When the MVC DP program was launched, owners of weeks like yours (OF Hawaii, OF Aruba...etc) found themselves in a VERY strong position. They went from their primary MVC trading option being week for week in II (with possibly an upgrade in size for the additional trade strength of their weeks) to being able to convert their valuable weeks into sufficient DPs to get multiple weeks in other MVC resorts. Just don't be so sure there's no value proposition - your preference for renting your valuable weeks has been driven by the fact the Vistana points system basically values your weeks the same as (a prime week) in Palm Dessert or Orlando (with the exception of the recent bump afforded you for the view). It's possible the DP value of your week in the integrated system is such you might find some (occasional) value there.

You raise some great points. Will have to see what the value prop is - but it would have to be strong. The DP program apparently wasn't strong enough to attract a significant number of MOC Oceanfront and other high value properties. Sadly, members of the DP program have no access to such unenrolled high value units. It has been reported that after 10 years only 60% of units have been enrolled in the DP program. The remaining 40% are independent weeks where the owners use, trade in II RCI or rent.

 

[Ken555]

Gosh, wouldn’t it be nice to get…facts?


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[dioxide45]

Gosh, wouldn’t it be nice to get…facts?


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It would, but no one from Marriott is giving out that info...

 

[Ken555]

It would, but no one from Marriott is giving out that info...

Let the fantasies continue! Where’s my popcorn…


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[CalGalTraveler]

The 10 year MVC DC 60/40% enrollment is a fact that was shared in a financial disclosure. Helpful to know how the dog behaves as they would need to justify their program to existing MVC owners to demonstrate fairness.

Would love to be surprised but I am not holding my breath.

 

[mjm1]

You raise some great points. Will have to see what the value prop is - but it would have to be strong. The DP program apparently wasn't strong enough to attract a significant number of MOC Oceanfront and other high value properties. Sadly, members of the DP program have no access to such unenrolled high value units. It has been reported that after 10 years only 60% of units have been enrolled in the DP program. The remaining 40% are independent weeks where the owners use, trade in RCI or rent.

We enrolled our MOC OF unit and I know at least one other Tugger who enrolled several OF units. Not sure of the total, but I know we have been able to reserve OF units using points. While our first preference is to use our unit, we like having the additional flexibility of electing points for a given year and using them elsewhere. Especially in times like these where travel conditions are not ideal. If the cost to enroll Vistana units is not too great it is definitely worth consideration.

As a point of clarification, most MVC resorts trade through II. There are some that have dual affiliation with II and RCI. We like the fact that both MVC and Vistana are aligned with II.

Best regards.

Mike

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Oops yes II. I edited my original post.

It all depends on one's travel objectives and alternatives. If I didn't have short stay alternatives with SOs or HGVC I probably would consider enrolling because it's easy. An MOC OF owner could have easily rented out their unit this year. Even if they didn't want to rent, they could have deposited in II to trade for something close to home.

IMHO...I don't consider 60% enrollment after 10 years of trying a success. Perhaps they may try something different with Vistana.

 

[dioxide45]

IMHO...I don't consider 60% enrollment after 10 years of trying a success. Perhaps they may try something different with Vistana.

For a long time the number fluctuate around 40%-45%. I don't think it was until they started offering "free" enrollment that they were able to bring that number up. One can now pretty much enroll for free by taking a tour or webinar.

 

[daviator]

i agree with @Ken555 that this is popcorn-worthy, but I enjoy reading the speculation, though that's all it is. If anyone is spending money based on the speculation, they’re making me think of the old adage about fools and their money.

It seems like, if nothing else, MVCI is going to create an even bigger inventory control nightmare, with usage rights mixed up in so many buckets of ownerships, trusts, possibly-overlapping points programs, etc… I don’t even think this would have been possible until recently, because it’s going to be too complicated for anything but a computer and sophisticated software to keep track of. Those of us who elect to hang on to deeded weeks and not enroll them in anything will find ourselves swimming in a smaller and smaller pool of deeded ownerships as time goes on, but so long as we’re only competing with each other, at least during the Home Resort Reservation Period, I guess that’s ok. It’s a little less clear what happens at 8 months with all the addition of Marriott owners and new overlay programs, we will have to wait and see. A “merger” at some level doesn’t really work unless they equalize or balance demand.

To me, our Vistana resorts are (mostly) a superior product to most or all of the MVC properties. So I can see plenty of MVC owners wanting to get into Vistana resorts without corresponding demand to go the other way. I do not have an overarching desire to get into any of the MVC properties, but I also have spent much time exploring their list, I know they have a lot of them.

At the 1:32 point conversion ratio that’s been suggested, I feel like nearly all the demand would come from the Marriott side. But I think it probably won’t be that simple. MVCI will have to do something more nuanced that assigns different values to different resorts and room types. But then there’s the VSN where the points relationships between the Vistana properties are already well-established. It just seems like it‘s going to be very complex and confusing, and maybe that’s part of what they want. I think a confusing and complex program leads to more unused rooms which MVCI can monetize, while still selling all of the benefits of their complex program – benefits which are real, for those who can figure it all out. So TUG becomes even more important to help people get value out of their ownerships.

 

[mjm1]

Oops yes II. I edited my original post.

It all depends on one's travel objectives and alternatives. If I didn't have short stay alternatives with SOs or HGVC I probably would consider enrolling because it's easy. An MOC OF owner could have easily rented out their unit this year. Even if they didn't want to rent, they could have deposited in II to trade for something close to home.

IMHO...I don't consider 60% enrollment after 10 years of trying a success. Perhaps they may try something different with Vistana.

If a MOC owner has the option I believe most would elect points for a given year rather than deposit their unit into II because their MF’s are much higher than other mainland resorts. However, if they lock off their unit they could get two trades in II, which may help balance things out. It really depends on the person and what they feel most comfortable with.

Best regards.

Mike

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@mjm1 Good point. I forgot about the lock-off alternative. Depends on what people are most comfortable with and how they can derive most value. Some may view their 1 week 2 bdrm as 2 weeks because they could book back to back stays in a lock-off.

 

[dioxide45]

Best that I can find. Marriott is not creating a new trust for a combined program. They also haven't conveyed any Vistana inventory to their existing MVC Trust that they use for the DC program. They actually last conveyed some Marriott inventory to their trust on 7/9/2021. So it would seem a combined program won't include a new trust, unless those plans are still in the works.

 

[SueDonJ]

Oops yes II. I edited my original post.

It all depends on one's travel objectives and alternatives. If I didn't have short stay alternatives with SOs or HGVC I probably would consider enrolling because it's easy. An MOC OF owner could have easily rented out their unit this year. Even if they didn't want to rent, they could have deposited in II to trade for something close to home.

IMHO...I don't consider 60% enrollment after 10 years of trying a success. Perhaps they may try something different with Vistana.

The 10 year MVC DC 60/40% enrollment is a fact that was shared in a financial disclosure. Helpful to know how the dog behaves as they would need to justify their program to existing MVC owners to demonstrate fairness.

Would love to be surprised but I am not holding my breath.

I think 60/40% is actually an indicator of success, considering that the overwhelming majority of purchases are direct and many of the highest-demand intervals are bought with the express purpose of using their weeks in season at their home resort, i.e. essentially to guarantee that the usage they want is the one that they'll get. Plus we never are told how many sold intervals go un-used every year although there are various indicators that say it's not an insubstantial number (by TUG standards anyway, where getting the absolute least value is unheard of.) Certainly Marriott doesn't need as high as 60% playing in the DC sandbox to fuel the engine that is the DC Exchange Company, not when it's taken into consideration that they can and do manipulate other inventory in-and-out of that company.

 

[lmnanea]

We enrolled our MOC OF unit and I know at least one other Tugger who enrolled several OF units. Not sure of the total, but I know we have been able to reserve OF units using points. While our first preference is to use our unit, we like having the additional flexibility of electing points for a given year and using them elsewhere. Especially in times like these where travel conditions are not ideal. If the cost to enroll Vistana units is not too great it is definitely worth consideration.

As a point of clarification, most MVC resorts trade through II. There are some that have dual affiliation with II and RCI. We like the fact that both MVC and Vistana are aligned with II.

Best regards.

Mike

Our rescind cutoff is in couple days. The question we have is based on your experience, how would you rate MvC points program ex: how easy is it to get the size, unit, view, property of choice off season? We are purchasing 2K+one deeded resale week. Thx Mike.

 

[mjm1]

Our rescind cutoff is in couple days. The question we have is based on your experience, how would you rate MvC points program ex: how easy is it to get the size, unit, view, property of choice off season? We are purchasing 2K+one deeded resale week. Thx Mike.

We have had success with using points, but the amount needed for high seasons and views can be very high. 2k points is not a lot to work with on their own depending what you are trying to do. It isn’t clear if you are somehow enrolling the resale week as part of a bundle purchase. If you are that can provide additional points if you make that election on an annual basis. Otherwise, you can reserve your deeded week and use it or trade it in II, and then add additional nights using your points, assuming the additional nights are available. Or you can use the points for shorter stays. We have used points for 5 night stays from Sunday to Friday on some trips, since those 5 nights may require the same points as just a Friday and Saturday night stay. It’s a good way to stretch your points.

Without knowing exactly what you are buying and the cost it is hard to say if what you are considering is a good deal. A resale purchase of points may be worth considering as an alternative.

Best regards.

Mike

 

[lmnanea]

We have had success with using points, but the amount needed for high seasons and views can be very high. 2k points is not a lot to work with on their own depending what you are trying to do. It isn’t clear if you are somehow enrolling the resale week as part of a bundle purchase. If you are that can provide additional points if you make that election on an annual basis. Otherwise, you can reserve your deeded week and use it or trade it in II, and then add additional nights using your points, assuming the additional nights are available. Or you can use the points for shorter stays. We have used points for 5 night stays from Sunday to Friday on some trips, since those 5 nights may require the same points as just a Friday and Saturday night stay. It’s a good way to stretch your points.

Without knowing exactly what you are buying and the cost it is hard to say if what you are considering is a good deal. A resale purchase of points may be worth considering as an alternative.

Best regards.

Mike

Mike, appreciate response. Yes, helpful.

we are getting bundle 2k pts plus gold NCV. We are verifying if indeed its easy to deposit NCV (was told worth 2775 pts) combine with 2K DC points to get a 1 week 1Bdr or 2 bdr off season (Marc-Nov).

 

[remowidget]

Best that I can find. Marriott is not creating a new trust for a combined program. They also haven't conveyed any Vistana inventory to their existing MVC Trust that they use for the DC program. They actually last conveyed some Marriott inventory to their trust on 7/9/2021. So it would seem a combined program won't include a new trust, unless those plans are still in the works.

My pie in the sky prediction is that they will pull Vistana properties under the MVC banner and Vistana will be no more. They will also create a trading program for everyone in the new program. Then they will spin off ILG, which would still contain Hyatt...

This would make them a much simpler straight forward company. They would lose the complexity and expense of II for Marriott week owners. They would also dramatically cut the overhead of Vistana. I think they have already been cutting Vistana overhead with call centers.

Full disclosure about my prediction ability. I was in an Apple store in the mid 80's with a friend who was in awe over their paint program. My opinion was why would anyone want one of these. Lol