Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) purchase of Interval Leisure Group (ILG) discussion!

[Steve Fatula]

Another way that some MVC resorts skim is by charging more points for a studio and 1BR separately than for the 2 BR. I notice that MCV takes advantage of this opportunity, especially for the Spring weeks. They make an additional 10-20% on DC points reservations for the 1BR plus studio vs 2BR. I assume other MVC resorts also profit from this type of 'skim'.

Yes, I can see my home resort has an approximately 2% higher points cost for a 2BR. Of course, they do have a slightly higher cost for 2 reservations vs 1, 2 housekeeping trips, 2 checkins/outs, etc. Not sure 2% is much of a profit given all of the added costs.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Thanks @SueDonJ et al lots of good MVC information to digest. From a quick glance comparing an enrolled week (since that is what Vistana/Hyatt will probably be offered) to the Hilton System (HGVC) - which is what I understand:

Enrollment: MVC DC = $2375 (but can be waived/grandfathered. Opt-in); HGVC = $599 mandatory for all new properties (Dev & resale)
Annual Dues (basic): MVC DC $195 (includes II fee); HGVC = $159 (includes RCI fee)
Reservations: MVC DC = free; HGVC $65
Borrow Points: MVC DC = Free; HGVC = Free
Save Points: MVC DC = Free; HGVC = $109
SKIM MVC DC = 1 night ; HGVC = None
Lock-off Fee: MVC DC = Free ; HGVC = n/a (points based system)
Exchange Program: MVC DC = Free II ; HGVC = Free (internal system)
(within system) (Marriott preference);
Exchange Program MVC Legacy = $189?/exchange (II); HGVC $239/exchange + Fixed Points (RCI) + resort fees.
(external)

[Updated]
The enrollment difference is 2375 - 599 = 1776. But while there is a $65 reservation fee, there is also cheaper annual dues amount ($36 cheaper) which need to be taken in account.
So for a once a year reservation, it's 1776 / 29 (65-36) = 61 years. (of course for 2 reservations a year 1776 / 94 (65 + 65 - 36) = 18 years - for 3 reservations a year, 1776 / 159 (65 + 65 + 65 -36) = 11 years.)

Of course a waiver improves the break-even.

This does not factor implicit fees such as skim.

I am too new to Vistana to do a similar comparison. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could take a crack at this.

Edited to clarify/add updates from post below.

 

[GregT]

The sales folks at Newport Coast just gave us free enrollment for our Grande Vista 2BR gold week (purchased in 2006), along with $75. You may want to agree to a presentation on your next visit to MVCI.

Always love to hear the stories about free enrollment.

I do think we will see a post-2010 week enrollment amnesty program at some point - 10 year anniversary would make sense. That also gives them two years to sell points to Starwood owners - and I think these sales will put additional inventory pressure on Marriott, and they will want the post 2010 weeks available (my opinion).

Interesting to speculate and will be curious to, in the future, look back to see what was correct and what missed.

Best,

Greg

 

[Steve Fatula]

Thanks @SueDonJ et al lots of good information to digest. From a quick glance comparing an enrolled week:

Enrollment: MVC DC $2375 (but can be waived/grandfathered. Opt-in); HGVC = $599 mandatory for all new properties (sale & resale)
Annual Dues (basic): MVC DC $195 (includes II fee); HGVC = $159 (includes RCI fee)
Reservations: MVC DC = free; HGVC $65
Borrow Points: MVC DC = Free?; HGVC = Free
Save Points: MVC DC = Free?; HGVC = $109
SKIM MVC = 1 night ; HGVC = None

If one wasn't given a waiver/grandfathered, it would take 27 reservations in HGVC to break even with the enrollment fee difference. If one makes 2 reservations a year that is almost 14 years or 9 years if you make 3 a year. Of course a waiver changes this equation. The annual dues are in the ballpark with each other. This does not factor in the other fees. I

I am too new to Vistana to do a similar comparison. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could take a crack at this.

Skim does not apply to points really (other than a token one as pointed out by Superchief above and only in that use case). It applies to enrolled legacy weeks, and only if you elect to convert them that year to points. Borrow points is indeed "free" with MVC, and is save (bank) points. To add to your chart, trading in II to another Marriott is $0 for a legacy week (not points), included in that Annual Dues. As is locking off your unit. For this reason, your chart is misleading. At least I think so.

 

[Superchief]

Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?

There may be weeks available in that season for fewer than the allocated points. However, in my experience there are significantly more weeks costing more points than fewer points. If we plan to use one of our home resorts in season, we would never convert it to VC points. However, we have converted several of our home resort weeks to points in situations that we only plan to use 1BR or fewer nights. Avoiding a Friday or Saturday night stay typically saves significant points and minimizes the impact of skim. We can also use a Gold season 2BR week points for a Platinum season 1BR, so this works in our favor in the VC points system.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Skim does not apply to points really (other than a token one as pointed out by Superchief above and only in that use case). It applies to enrolled legacy weeks, and only if you elect to convert them that year to points. Borrow points is indeed "free" with MVC, and is save (bank) points. To add to your chart, trading in II to another Marriott is $0 for a legacy week (not points), included in that Annual Dues. As is locking off your unit. For this reason, your chart is misleading. At least I think so.

Thanks. I will edit the chart with your additions.

 

[JIMinNC]

Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?

I do know that in the Maui resorts - and I suspect the other Hawaii resorts as well, but I haven't verified - there are some weeks that have little or no "skim". Maui weeks were all sold as Platinum season, so all weeks of the same view/size get the same point allocation. But with DC Points, there are TWO seasons - peak season which tends to be winter whale season and summer, and a second tier season which tends to be spring and fall, plus the period right after the Holidays in early-to-late January, There is significant skim in the peak seasons, but for the second-tier season, there is little to no skim. For example:

A 2BR OV unit at Maui Ocean Club is assigned 5825 points for every use year. To book that same unit costs 6700 points during the high points season, but only 5850 points during the second tier season. Similarly, a 1BR OF is assigned 4175 DC points, but costs 4125 to book during the lower tier points season, but 4875 during high points season.

There could be other similar situations in the system, but this is the only one I am specifically familiar with. I think it tends to occur when the points seasons differ from the weeks seasons.

 

[chemteach]

Star options booking is at 8 months.
And there are additional housekeeping fees if you book more stays than your annual allotment.
I get one housekeeping credit per timeshare unit per year. If I reserve more than that, I think the current charge is $30; might have gone up to $35.
Housekeeping credits do not rollover into the next calendar year.

I have never heard of, or experienced this.

 

[chemteach]

I do know that in the Maui resorts - and I suspect the other Hawaii resorts as well, but I haven't verified - there are some weeks that have little or no "skim". Maui weeks were all sold as Platinum season,
A 2BR OV unit at Maui Ocean Club is assigned 5825 points for every use year. To book that same unit costs 6700 points during the high points season, but only 5850 points during the second tier season. Similarly, a 1BR OF is assigned 4175 DC points, but costs 4125 to book during the lower tier points season, but 4875 during high points season..

The "skim" in the DC Trust sounds really bad. It seems you are defacto getting downgraded if you deposit your week into the trust on any particular year. It seems trading in II is a better option - of course, you can only get a week that has been deposited in II in order to use II. I own in several systems, and have only ever exchanged up in value. The idea of depositing my week for something less than what would allow me to get back into my home resort system seems counter-intuitive to me. I suppose if someone has a low cost per point ratio, it would make sense because you could trade into a nicer place if you deposit several units into the Trust. It will be very interesting to see what VAC ultimately does with Vistana, Marriott, and Hyatt. At this point, I'm just happy to own in both Vistana, which gets me amazing trades to great places with StarOptions, and Marriott, where I should be able to trade my units for great places via II. It will be a sad day if/when VAC decides to take away the Marriott preference in II. What would be REALLY nice is if VAC decided to create a mega-system preference period in II for Hyatt, Vistana, and Marriott weeks. Upside for VAC is they would get exchange fee money, downside for VAC is that people buying resale would have the same opportunity in II as people who purchased through the developer, so it wouldn't help developer direct purchases.

 

[dioxide45]

Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?

It definitely isn't zero sum. I am actually amazed that this link still works, but this was a document created by @DanCali back around DC inception that showed the average number of DC points across the entire year for your season, view, resort, unit. You have to compare those values to what they actually assigned your week in DC points. You can see that in this document maintained by @StevenTing.

Adding an example: The average number of points needed to book in to book a 2BR OV at Maui Ocean Cub is 6,935 DC points, but they only give an owner 5,825.

 

[dioxide45]

With StarOptions, you can book fewer than 7 nights at a specific timeframe - I can't recall whether it is 8 months, 6 months, etc. I believe there is no "housekeeping fee" even if you were to book 7 single nights at different resorts within Vistana using StarOptions.

Star options booking is at 8 months.
And there are additional housekeeping fees if you book more stays than your annual allotment.
I get one housekeeping credit per timeshare unit per year. If I reserve more than that, I think the current charge is $30; might have gone up to $35.
Housekeeping credits do not rollover into the next calendar year.

I don't mind the nickel and dime for what I do use up front in HGVC. A one time larger fee benefits most the people who make a lot of reservations and changes. I admit I do like in Vistana being able to make and cancel a reservation without charge. Marriott's fees just seem higher than HGVC and Vistana overall

I've owned Vistana (Starwood) since 2007 and I've never heard anything about this housekeeping credit per timeshare unit per year. Have you ever been charged this? And exactly what is the "annual allotment"?

I have never heard of, or experienced this.

We recently ran in to the VSN housekeeping fee. It is actually $56 for a 2BR unit. From what I understand, you get one free credit for every week you own. You get a free housekeeping for each week. So if you own two weeks, you get two credits. The crappy part is if you own a 2BR and you reserve a 1BR premium and 1BR deluxe, you have to pay the housekeeping fee for the second reservation even though your MF covers a 2BR. I don't know if this works differently for 2BR lock off owners, but that is how it is for our SVV 2BR dedicated unit.

We owned two weeks this year when I made three reservations. We own a 1BR EOY and an annual 2BR. The third reservation had a $56 fee for a 2BR. The other reservations were for a 2BR for one night and a 1BR for two nights. When I added a third week ownership a couple weeks ago, I remade the third reservation and the new reservation didn't note the housekeeping fee. I then cancelled the reservation that had the fee.

 

[gsb]

Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?

I expect it all depends on the resort and the week. For example, at KoOlina our 2BROV nets us 4950 points if we turn it in. That won’t do a great deal for me if we want to go during a holiday period, or during most of February, March, June, July, or August. There are several months when I could reserve a 2BROV for 4925 points per week.

Of course that is one resort, but perhaps there are others that work the same way.

 

[controller1]

We recently ran in to the VSN housekeeping fee. It is actually $56 for a 2BR unit. From what I understand, you get one free credit for every week you own. You get a free housekeeping for each week. So if you own two weeks, you get two credits. The crappy part is if you own a 2BR and you reserve a 1BR premium and 1BR deluxe, you have to pay the housekeeping fee for the second reservation even though your MF covers a 2BR. I don't know if this works differently for 2BR lock off owners, but that is how it is for our SVV 2BR dedicated unit.

We owned two weeks this year when I made three reservations. We own a 1BR EOY and an annual 2BR. The third reservation had a $56 fee for a 2BR. The other reservations were for a 2BR for one night and a 1BR for two nights. When I added a third week ownership a couple weeks ago, I remade the third reservation and the new reservation didn't note the housekeeping fee. I then cancelled the reservation that had the fee.

As far as a 2BR lockoff, we have stayed two weeks moving from one side to the other and have never been charged a housekeeping fee at WKORV-N.

 

[mjm1]

I have never heard of, or experienced this.

We will incur a fee of $38 IIRC as we used some SO’s in January and will use the rest of them in December. We will have to pay the fee in December during our stay.

Mike

 

[Dean]

Thanks. Wow that sucks. There is no notion of "skimming" in Hilton or Staroption systems. We will frequently stay at our home Hilton resort but use the points to upgrade to a larger unit, view, or fewer days - no skim - points are points. As long as you pay your MF you are entitled to use them anywhere in the system.

Why do they do this? Why do they care?

Systems that were started as a points system or have been in place for a long time growing up with the points, build the "skim" into the system. They must all account for orphaned days, unexpected daily events and maintenance so as to not be overbooked with the number of points sold. So they create their points charts accordingly and they don't sell 100% of the points they potentially could. With DVC they don't sell 2-4% of the potential points AND if the lockoff's are split, the sum of the points to reserve that unit are more than reserving it as a 2BR. With full weeks you can more easily predict the needs of the system for lost inventory. So a certain volume of skim is reasonable. 8 years ago there was a lot of discussion about the % of the skim and my recollection is it was higher than I would have expected based on the issues I raise. But here's the other portion. NO ONE lost anything they had before that was contractual. They can still reserve and use their week with no loss. While I would have preferred a smaller differential, having the additional choices and benefits of being enrolled is worth it to me.

 

[TravelTime]

As I have been reading all of this speculation, one thought that occurred to me is for the last 8 years, Marriott owners have been talking about pre-June 2010 and post-June 2010. Those who were owners pre-6/2010 have a huge advantage with regards to ease of enrollment in the DC compared to those of us who came in after 6/2010. It seems at some point we may have a new before/after date - the point at which Marriott Vacations Worldwide announces any kind of specific program to allow cross-program bookings. Those who are on board before that point, may be grandfathered or otherwise benefit from that status. For example, if point levels needed for Executive, Presidential, etc rise due to the influx of owners with interests in both systems (not sure how significant that might be), folks already at that level might be grandfathered. There also could be some other option that is grandfathered like the pre-June 2010 weeks were.

Our goal has been to find a reasonable way to get to at least Executive status (so far haven't made the jump), and since Westin and Hyatt have a lot of locations I think we would like to try, our meager point total would be even more inadequate than it is now should some sort of an expanded program emerge. This all at least has me thinking about whether we should approach things with a little more sense of urgency to get to a higher level before plans are announced. I suspect that any before/after date would not be until the specific changes/programs were actually announced, so that will clearly take some time, so hopefully we'll find a way to better our status before that day comes.

I agree with JIMinNC. This is what I was trying to describe in one of my early posts but I could not find the right words. I think there will be a new pre/post enrollment date for a new “mega” program. I suspect Marriott will be fair to current owners and give all of us (Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt owners) some reasonable options to enroll in the new program. I assume there may be a cost associated but I do not know, of course. BTW, JIMinNC, I like your posts. I always read what you write. You sound like a knowledgeable, reasonable and respectful Tugger!

 

[AJCts411]

As far as a 2BR lockoff, we have stayed two weeks moving from one side to the other and have never been charged a housekeeping fee at WKORV-N.

Been following this thread since the acquisition announcement. (Hyatt owner) I can not see why since you paid for cleaning on a two bedroom lock off unit in your fees, why a honest company would try to gouge you for more dollars when you lock a door. Two bedrooms need to be cleaned, no extra people, nothing changes but for a extra key program. Hyatt charges a guest certificate fee for the separate lock off use, ($30) nothing else. Interesting topic, the merger, can't decide if this will be a gold rush or lead balloon in the end for current owners. With all the lawyers circling, really don't have any concern.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Thanks @SueDonJ et al lots of good information to digest. From a quick glance comparing an enrolled week (since that is what Vistana/Hyatt will probably be offered):

Enrollment: MVC DC = $2375 (but can be waived/grandfathered. Opt-in); HGVC = $599 mandatory for all new properties (Dev & resale)
Annual Dues (basic): MVC DC $195 (includes II fee); HGVC = $159 (includes RCI fee)
Reservations: MVC DC = free; HGVC $65
Borrow Points: MVC DC = Free; HGVC = Free
Save Points: MVC DC = Free; HGVC = $109
SKIM MVC DC = 1 night ; HGVC = None
Lock-off Fee: MVC DC = Free ; HGVC = n/a (points based system)
Exchange Program: MVC DC = Free II ; HGVC = Free (internal system)
(within system) (Marriott preference);
Exchange Program MVC Legacy = $189?/exchange (II); HGVC $239/exchange + Fixed Points (RCI) + resort fees.
(external)


It would take 27 reservations in HGVC to break even with the enrollment fee difference. If one makes 2 reservations a year that is almost 14 years or 9 years if you make 3 a year. Of course a waiver improves the break even. The annual dues are in the ballpark with each other. This does not factor in the other fees such as skim. I am a newbie so perhaps I did not get this right.

I am too new to Vistana to do a similar comparison. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could take a crack at this.

Edited to clarify/add updates from post below.

CalGalTraveler, here are some more considerations for your comparison.

Inventory Allocation
Marriott inventory allocation between points system and existing legacy (non enrolled) weeks - black box (nobody outside of Marriott itself knows how this is done)
HGVC - All properties have a window for weeks owners to reserve their home week(s), if the owners choose to reserve their home resort, before the remaining unreserved weeks are made available for booking via points. (Yes, this makes points users "second class" citizens.)

Point Acquisition
Marriott - Direct purchase of points; or conversion of legacy weeks (pre 6/2010) to point - with "skim" (roughly 15% of value)
HGVC - No direct purchase of points; all point tied to week ownership.

Disposition/transfer fees.
Marriott legacy weeks- normal closing costs; but loses access to point conversion (except package deals directly though Marriott)
Marriott points - normal closing costs, plus a $2 USD per point tariff for the exchange(s). (Applies for every exchange, subject to being raised, and it has been since initial inception.)
HGVC - normal closing costs, new owner joins points system as part of purchase. (There are some exceptions, where joining is voluntary, but the opportunity to join is always available at the standard transfer fee.)

 

[VacationForever]

Junk fees is now $3.00 per point as of April 2018.

 

[TravelTime]

Yep, got that in February. I take the points. Points guy values then at .9 cents each, meaning, $270. When used wisely, they are worth more.

I agree Steve. We are using 40,000 points per night for 3 nights to stay at the Ritz Carlton later this year. Based on the internet price of about $500 per night for a basic room, it seems like a great use of Rewards points. Plus, based on our owner status at Executive level, we may get lucky and get a room upgrade. So I would also take the 30,000 points over $200. BTW, Steve, you are someone I also follow and enjoy reading your posts. You are factual and objective in a nice way. I am learning a lot from your posts and many other Tuggers.

 

[SueDonJ]

But in exchange for the skim, they do not charge fees for most transactions, which most non-skim systems do.

Don't misunderstand, there is only skim if you trade your week for DC points. If you occupy, no skim. If you trade in II, no skim. So, it only applies for enrolled weeks that elect to trade for DC points.

... NO ONE lost anything they had before that was contractual. They can still reserve and use their week with no loss. While I would have preferred a smaller differential, having the additional choices and benefits of being enrolled is worth it to me.

All very good points but I'd challenge the one about "no skim in II." For some highest-demand Weeks there has always been a "skim" factor when exchanging via II. Comparing the actual exchange history of my 3BR non-lockoff high-season Weeks, taking into account all the II Accommodation Certificate and Two-For-One extras that were made available to me at the time, I could get exactly the same exchanges in the DC that I got in II AND it would leave me with a surplus of DC Points. That's more exchange value from the DC than from II, in real practice. Granted, there are few 3BR non-lockoffs in the MVW portfolio and most TUGgers are experts at uptrading when playing the II game, but this is still a point worth making in the overall conversation.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Thanks @SueDonJ et al lots of good information to digest. From a quick glance comparing an enrolled week (since that is what Vistana/Hyatt will probably be offered):

Enrollment: MVC DC = $2375 (but can be waived/grandfathered. Opt-in); HGVC = $599 mandatory for all new properties (Dev & resale)
Annual Dues (basic): MVC DC $195 (includes II fee); HGVC = $159 (includes RCI fee)
Reservations: MVC DC = free; HGVC $65
Borrow Points: MVC DC = Free; HGVC = Free
Save Points: MVC DC = Free; HGVC = $109
SKIM MVC DC = 1 night ; HGVC = None
Lock-off Fee: MVC DC = Free ; HGVC = n/a (points based system)
Exchange Program: MVC DC = Free II ; HGVC = Free (internal system)
(within system) (Marriott preference);
Exchange Program MVC Legacy = $189?/exchange (II); HGVC $239/exchange + Fixed Points (RCI) + resort fees.
(external)


It would take 27 reservations in HGVC to break even with the enrollment fee difference. If one makes 2 reservations a year that is almost 14 years or 9 years if you make 3 a year. Of course a waiver improves the break even. The annual dues are in the ballpark with each other. This does not factor in the other fees such as skim. I am a newbie so perhaps I did not get this right.

I am too new to Vistana to do a similar comparison. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could take a crack at this.

Edited to clarify/add updates from post below.

I politely disagree with your math on reservations. The enrolment difference is 2375 - 599 = 1776. But while there is a $65 reservation fee, there is also cheaper annual dues amount ($36 cheaper) which need to be taken in account.
So for a once a year reservation, it's 1776 / 29 (65-36) = 61 years. (of course for 2 reservations a year 1776 / 94 (65 + 65 - 36) = 18 years - for 3 reservations a year, 1776 / 159 (65 + 65 + 65 -36) = 11 years.)

 

[TravelTime]

Marriott told me that if I buy an enrolled deeded week from them, they count how many points it is worth in addition to how many actual DC Trust Points I own, and then I would qualify for the member level of the total combination, even if I never convert. For example, let’s say I have 7000 DC points and I own an enrolled MKO week (using MKO just as an example), which is worth a little under 5000 points. The combination would be approximately 12,000 points and push me from Executive Level to Presidential Level, even if I never convert MKO to points. I have not actually bought an enrolled deeded week from Marriott so I am wondering if others have been able to achieve a higher membership level in this way?

 

[VacationForever]

Marriott told me that if I buy a deeded week from them, they count how many points it is worth in addition to how many actual DC Trust Points I own, and then I would qualify for the member level of the total combination, even if I never convert. For example, let’s say I have 7000 DC points and I own MKO which is worth a little under 5000 points. The combination would be 12,000 points and push me from Executive Level to Presidential Level, even if I never convert MKO to points. I have not actually bought a convertible deeded week from Marriott so I am wondering if others have been able to achieve a higher membership level in this way?

Any post June 2010 resale week bought through Marriott will not be counted in the status level nor convertible into points. If it is bought in conjunction with points, aka hybrid or combo, then the week can be enrolled and counted.

 

[Fasttr]

Any post June 2010 resale week bought through Marriott will not be counted in the status level nor convertible into points. If it is bought in conjunction with points, aka hybrid or combo, then the week can be enrolled and counted.

I believe there are a few exceptions to that, where MVC is still selling enrollable weeks without the need to purchase points in a hybrid combo. Aruba and Spain come to mind as examples I have seen posted about.