- Joined
- Jul 19, 2007
- Messages
- 7,128
- Reaction score
- 1,886
- Location
- Carlsbad, CA
- Resorts Owned
- Marriott: Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas (3BRx5), Ko Olina, Shadow Ridge II, Willow Ridge, Aruba Ocean Club, DC Points HGVC: Flamingo, Sea World, I-Drive, Starwood Bella (x4), SDO, TradeWinds, Worldmark
All,
I have some additional information that I’ve gathered through a conversation with a Marriott executive in Customer Advocacy. The information is interesting, and helps explain some of what we’ve seen recently. Some TUGgers may have already figured this out, so I apologize if there is repetition here. It won’t necessarily make us happy or sad, I just think it may help manage our expectations about the Marriott system.
The purpose of the call was to try and understand how some of the reservations experiences reported previously (kedler and kdorward) and to clarify if Legacy Point owners might be restricted in any future expansion of DClub, as we’ve learned on recent Sales Tours (GregT).
The following is what I learned, some of which is not novel:
1) Inventory for reservations is present in two “buckets”, Exchange Inventory and Trust Inventory
2) Reservations can only be booked using Points where the underlying week is present (either Trust Points for Trust Inventory and Legacy Points/Exchange Points for Exchange Inventory)
3) Only Trust Point owners have direct access to Trust Inventory
4) Legacy Point owners may be aware that Trust Inventory exists and a week is available for reservation to Trust Point owners (such as Crystal Shores) but the Legacy Point owner isn’t able to book it with Legacy Points (see kdorward)
5) Trust Point owners (who also own Legacy Points) may see Trust Inventory available using their Trust Points, but can’t use their Legacy Points to book it (see kedler).
My fundamental question was trying to understand how Marriott would (actively) manage its inventory to fulfill reservations requests, which should have prevented #4 and #5 from occurring.
As explained to me, it is reasonable to think of Trust Inventory – all of those weeks in the Trust -- as “Home Resort Inventory” (my term). Someone who owns Trust Points can book any available Home Resort Inventory with their Trust Points. Marriott will manage the Home Resort Inventory (opaquely) and will decide when excess Home Resort Inventory exists that therefore is available to be matched against a Legacy Point owners waitlist request. Accordingly, it is likely that it will require passage of time (of unknown length before check-in) before Marriott is comfortable actively managing the Trust Inventory and making it available to meet Legacy Point waitlist requests. It may be a couple days or it may be months from the date of Waitlist Request.
The concept of a “Home Resort Inventory” is not dissimilar from what I have in Wyndham, Hilton and Starwood. In each system, there is a Home Resort Advantage where people who specifically own that property can book their home property (and only those specific owners can book their home property). And then at a designated time (Wyndham: 10 months before check-in, Hilton: 9 months before check-in, Starwood: 8 months before check-in), then the remaining available inventory (if any) is opened up to the owners of points from other properties. So if I own at HGVC Sea World but want to visit HGVC Kings Land, I have to wait until 9 months before check-in and then hope that there is HGVC Kings Land property available for me to book with my HGVC points.
With these other systems, there is a guaranteed time/month where the remaining available inventory (if any) opens up – with Marriott, they will make it available to match waitlist requests when Inventory Control believes based upon usage patterns and projected demand, that they have excess inventory. In this manner, it is conceivable that there could be no wait at all – someone could be confirmed 12 ½ months ahead of check-in if they are trying to book something that is considered excessive in its quantity needed. The example comes to mind if the Trust is deep in Ko Olina and Ko Olina’s low season is October, a Legacy Point user could conceivably be confirmed in September 2011 for a reservation in October 2012 (but would have to Waitlist if requesting a July 2012 reservation). It’s a novel and unusual (to me) approach, and requires confidence in Marriott’s inventory control procedure and trust (no pun intended) in its desire to fairly match reservation requests for all of its owners, irrespective of Legacy or Trust points.
He did assure me that future expansion properties, which will only be present in the Trust, will be available to Legacy Point users. However, he also acknowledged the reality that it won’t be clear how quickly that inventory will be considered “excess” for purposes of matching Legacy Point users Waitlist Requests, because it may be very modest in its quantities. Despite this disclaimer, I’d rather know that there is at least a possibility of inventory becoming available, even if over time the rare properties become predominantly reserved by Trust Point owners due to their scarcity (which effectively requires Trust Point ownership to book that scarce week).
He took great pains to emphasize the fairness of the decisions that Marriott is making and mentioned more than once that Marriott is in the business of making sure all of their owners have a fair and equal opportunity to make their reservations. This also came up when I asked if we would ever be able to waitlist at 13-months (unlikely) and the reason was concerns over possibly disenfranchising certain owners (non-Premier and Premier Plus) owners to the benefit of the other owners (Premier and Premier-Plus). Marriott is clearly trying to avoid this, to the extreme that currently there is little practical advantage to being Premier or Premier Plus.
So, in summary:
1) Legacy Points should have access to system expansion in the future
2) Using Legacy Points to reserve properties in the Trust has its best chance for success using the Waitlist
3) Marriott will conduct active inventory control to match Legacy Point Waitlist Requests, but will wait until it is sure there is excess inventory (more than Trust Point owners want)
4) This potential delay in matching a Waitlist Request will be of unknown length – and may complicate other competing travel needs (airfare, reservation in an adjoining week, etc)
5) Owners of both Trust Points and Legacy Points must understand these points don’t mix seamlessly, and the Point Owner must decide between booking a Trust Points reservation today (out of the Trust, and perhaps borrowing next years Trust Points to secure the reservation) or Waitlisting for a reservation that may not match until 2/4/8 weeks later using their Legacy Points (or some combination of Trust/Legacy)
6) He mentioned more than once that Marriott wants to actively match reservation requests for both Legacy and Trust Points, because they need to establish a pattern of successful point utilization to ensure future participation using points and on-going customer referrals to the program.
It’s a very complicated system – both sophisticated points users and newbies will struggle with the usage of the system, but they will understand it over time. I note that Worldmark introduced a second type of point (for use only with Wyndham properties – an affiliated system. ) The introduction of the second type of point caused a great deal of excitement/consternation for owners for awhile, but now we just understand that this is just another type of point that has additional features because of its ability to access the affiliated resorts – so now I have WM points and I also have WM+A points and I manage them both and am aware of the capabilities of each.
One other comment he made – I mentioned that I expected ROFR to become more frequent in the future, as Marriott began to sell thru its existing Trust Points and needed replenishment inventory. He agreed that it was likely at that some point in the future they would begin to exercise ROFR, but most likely based upon the needs of the Trust Inventory, ie, where the Trust was weak. He even offered that there have been situations recently where Marriott sees a “hole” in the Trust Inventory and has proactively approached a private seller that is listing a week for sale and offered to purchase the week for the Trust, using recent market data to support the price. I know Hilton has done this, where they contacted an existing owner about buying back a week, and find it interesting that Marriott has done this also. This seems like a Super ROFR, where Marriott is using the recent declining market prices (aided by no ROFR?) to their advantage, by finding sellers and making bids based upon the recent market conditions – which simultaneously builds the Trust and presumably keeps down the overall MF of the Trust (since I suspect they are only buying premium weeks with MFs below $0.40 per point)
I believe there are implications here for all of us – and as others have wisely noted, they are primarily long term implications (except for the obvious short term need of figuring out how exactly to book the damn reservation). I believe in the short and medium term, enrolled Legacy Week owners who wish to use Legacy Points will continue to make reservations with relative ease and exploit the Legacy 53 properties (and any expansion properties) effectively. Long term, if you care to think XX years down the road, those years will be spent by Marriott actively ROFRing prime weeks and adding them to the Trust (and expanding to other properties if possible) --- all while simultaneously selling Trust Points that have a Home Resort Inventory booking advantage over the Legacy Point owner to that expanded Trust Inventory. This presents a different challenge for the pure Legacy Points owner and I don’t have a prediction of what will transpire then.
I was satisfied with the conversation but only time will tell if reservations are actually made that support and match this understanding. I hope this has been helpful and instructive – it certainly was to me. I apologize if much of this is repetitive to other fine TUGgers posts, but I needed to hear it for myself. I think it will be important to see how often TUGgers get their reservation requests filled, especially from Waitlist requests. I’ll probe that one of these days when possible.
Best to all,
Greg
I have some additional information that I’ve gathered through a conversation with a Marriott executive in Customer Advocacy. The information is interesting, and helps explain some of what we’ve seen recently. Some TUGgers may have already figured this out, so I apologize if there is repetition here. It won’t necessarily make us happy or sad, I just think it may help manage our expectations about the Marriott system.
The purpose of the call was to try and understand how some of the reservations experiences reported previously (kedler and kdorward) and to clarify if Legacy Point owners might be restricted in any future expansion of DClub, as we’ve learned on recent Sales Tours (GregT).
The following is what I learned, some of which is not novel:
1) Inventory for reservations is present in two “buckets”, Exchange Inventory and Trust Inventory
2) Reservations can only be booked using Points where the underlying week is present (either Trust Points for Trust Inventory and Legacy Points/Exchange Points for Exchange Inventory)
3) Only Trust Point owners have direct access to Trust Inventory
4) Legacy Point owners may be aware that Trust Inventory exists and a week is available for reservation to Trust Point owners (such as Crystal Shores) but the Legacy Point owner isn’t able to book it with Legacy Points (see kdorward)
5) Trust Point owners (who also own Legacy Points) may see Trust Inventory available using their Trust Points, but can’t use their Legacy Points to book it (see kedler).
My fundamental question was trying to understand how Marriott would (actively) manage its inventory to fulfill reservations requests, which should have prevented #4 and #5 from occurring.
As explained to me, it is reasonable to think of Trust Inventory – all of those weeks in the Trust -- as “Home Resort Inventory” (my term). Someone who owns Trust Points can book any available Home Resort Inventory with their Trust Points. Marriott will manage the Home Resort Inventory (opaquely) and will decide when excess Home Resort Inventory exists that therefore is available to be matched against a Legacy Point owners waitlist request. Accordingly, it is likely that it will require passage of time (of unknown length before check-in) before Marriott is comfortable actively managing the Trust Inventory and making it available to meet Legacy Point waitlist requests. It may be a couple days or it may be months from the date of Waitlist Request.
The concept of a “Home Resort Inventory” is not dissimilar from what I have in Wyndham, Hilton and Starwood. In each system, there is a Home Resort Advantage where people who specifically own that property can book their home property (and only those specific owners can book their home property). And then at a designated time (Wyndham: 10 months before check-in, Hilton: 9 months before check-in, Starwood: 8 months before check-in), then the remaining available inventory (if any) is opened up to the owners of points from other properties. So if I own at HGVC Sea World but want to visit HGVC Kings Land, I have to wait until 9 months before check-in and then hope that there is HGVC Kings Land property available for me to book with my HGVC points.
With these other systems, there is a guaranteed time/month where the remaining available inventory (if any) opens up – with Marriott, they will make it available to match waitlist requests when Inventory Control believes based upon usage patterns and projected demand, that they have excess inventory. In this manner, it is conceivable that there could be no wait at all – someone could be confirmed 12 ½ months ahead of check-in if they are trying to book something that is considered excessive in its quantity needed. The example comes to mind if the Trust is deep in Ko Olina and Ko Olina’s low season is October, a Legacy Point user could conceivably be confirmed in September 2011 for a reservation in October 2012 (but would have to Waitlist if requesting a July 2012 reservation). It’s a novel and unusual (to me) approach, and requires confidence in Marriott’s inventory control procedure and trust (no pun intended) in its desire to fairly match reservation requests for all of its owners, irrespective of Legacy or Trust points.
He did assure me that future expansion properties, which will only be present in the Trust, will be available to Legacy Point users. However, he also acknowledged the reality that it won’t be clear how quickly that inventory will be considered “excess” for purposes of matching Legacy Point users Waitlist Requests, because it may be very modest in its quantities. Despite this disclaimer, I’d rather know that there is at least a possibility of inventory becoming available, even if over time the rare properties become predominantly reserved by Trust Point owners due to their scarcity (which effectively requires Trust Point ownership to book that scarce week).
He took great pains to emphasize the fairness of the decisions that Marriott is making and mentioned more than once that Marriott is in the business of making sure all of their owners have a fair and equal opportunity to make their reservations. This also came up when I asked if we would ever be able to waitlist at 13-months (unlikely) and the reason was concerns over possibly disenfranchising certain owners (non-Premier and Premier Plus) owners to the benefit of the other owners (Premier and Premier-Plus). Marriott is clearly trying to avoid this, to the extreme that currently there is little practical advantage to being Premier or Premier Plus.
So, in summary:
1) Legacy Points should have access to system expansion in the future
2) Using Legacy Points to reserve properties in the Trust has its best chance for success using the Waitlist
3) Marriott will conduct active inventory control to match Legacy Point Waitlist Requests, but will wait until it is sure there is excess inventory (more than Trust Point owners want)
4) This potential delay in matching a Waitlist Request will be of unknown length – and may complicate other competing travel needs (airfare, reservation in an adjoining week, etc)
5) Owners of both Trust Points and Legacy Points must understand these points don’t mix seamlessly, and the Point Owner must decide between booking a Trust Points reservation today (out of the Trust, and perhaps borrowing next years Trust Points to secure the reservation) or Waitlisting for a reservation that may not match until 2/4/8 weeks later using their Legacy Points (or some combination of Trust/Legacy)
6) He mentioned more than once that Marriott wants to actively match reservation requests for both Legacy and Trust Points, because they need to establish a pattern of successful point utilization to ensure future participation using points and on-going customer referrals to the program.
It’s a very complicated system – both sophisticated points users and newbies will struggle with the usage of the system, but they will understand it over time. I note that Worldmark introduced a second type of point (for use only with Wyndham properties – an affiliated system. ) The introduction of the second type of point caused a great deal of excitement/consternation for owners for awhile, but now we just understand that this is just another type of point that has additional features because of its ability to access the affiliated resorts – so now I have WM points and I also have WM+A points and I manage them both and am aware of the capabilities of each.
One other comment he made – I mentioned that I expected ROFR to become more frequent in the future, as Marriott began to sell thru its existing Trust Points and needed replenishment inventory. He agreed that it was likely at that some point in the future they would begin to exercise ROFR, but most likely based upon the needs of the Trust Inventory, ie, where the Trust was weak. He even offered that there have been situations recently where Marriott sees a “hole” in the Trust Inventory and has proactively approached a private seller that is listing a week for sale and offered to purchase the week for the Trust, using recent market data to support the price. I know Hilton has done this, where they contacted an existing owner about buying back a week, and find it interesting that Marriott has done this also. This seems like a Super ROFR, where Marriott is using the recent declining market prices (aided by no ROFR?) to their advantage, by finding sellers and making bids based upon the recent market conditions – which simultaneously builds the Trust and presumably keeps down the overall MF of the Trust (since I suspect they are only buying premium weeks with MFs below $0.40 per point)
I believe there are implications here for all of us – and as others have wisely noted, they are primarily long term implications (except for the obvious short term need of figuring out how exactly to book the damn reservation). I believe in the short and medium term, enrolled Legacy Week owners who wish to use Legacy Points will continue to make reservations with relative ease and exploit the Legacy 53 properties (and any expansion properties) effectively. Long term, if you care to think XX years down the road, those years will be spent by Marriott actively ROFRing prime weeks and adding them to the Trust (and expanding to other properties if possible) --- all while simultaneously selling Trust Points that have a Home Resort Inventory booking advantage over the Legacy Point owner to that expanded Trust Inventory. This presents a different challenge for the pure Legacy Points owner and I don’t have a prediction of what will transpire then.
I was satisfied with the conversation but only time will tell if reservations are actually made that support and match this understanding. I hope this has been helpful and instructive – it certainly was to me. I apologize if much of this is repetitive to other fine TUGgers posts, but I needed to hear it for myself. I think it will be important to see how often TUGgers get their reservation requests filled, especially from Waitlist requests. I’ll probe that one of these days when possible.
Best to all,
Greg
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