Combined Trust/Legacy Point Reservations

All,

I diverted this off of the Points Reservation thread because it seems worthy of its own thread.

The recent issues reported by kdorward and kedler (quoted below) suggest a real dysfunction in the reservation system, when trying to combine Trust and Legacy Points to make a reservation.

That is very troubling for owners of Trust Points, who were sold on the concept that the point buckets combine seamlessly. These recent posts suggests thats not the case -- which we thought was possible relatively painlessly?

But Kedler's experience (below) suggests otherwise.

kedler said:

Hi Dioxide,

The reservation is for 7 nights and I think its 4475? We bought 1750 trust points and we had 1100 (?) bonus points. I banked points from 2011 into 2012 and borrowed some from 2013 to get what I needed for the reservation - that's why I took Mt V not OC V as I couldn't get enough points that Marriott deemed "trust points" to make it. I'll keep calling for now as there is no waiting list until the 12 mth point and if I'm going to fly from NJ to Hawaii then I'd like an OC V - though we may chose to save the points for a weekend excursion to Fairway Villas.

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Kedler, can you please confirm the following is what happened:

1,750 -- 2011 Trust Points Banked
1,750 -- 2012 Trust Points Available
1,075 -- 2013 Trust Points Borrowed

4,575 -- Points required for 7 night Mountain View 2BR at Ko Olina

What is very puzzling about this situation is Marriott's recommendation that Kedler borrow the 1,075 points, when Kedler requested to redeem one of the legacy weeks for points (or use PlusPoints). It should have been possible for Marriott to carve out two mid-week days (at 575 apiece) and book 5 days with Trust Points and 2 days with Legacy Points -- leaving an orphan balance of Legacy Points (plus I believe there are still Plus Points out there?).

Or perhaps this was not recommended as it might have required three different reservations (Sat/Sun - Trust, Mon/Tues - Legacy, Wed/Thurs/Fri - Trust?).

Perhaps this is Mariott's position on why they don't recommend this -- however, if it becomes a pattern where future Trust Points must be borrowed in favor of converting a Legacy Week, then this is not good. Especially if the related reservation is one day canceled, and the Trust Points have now been (permanently) borrowed into a different year for usage and can't be returned.

Marriott needs to explain this (if Marriott even gets it??) to the Trust Point owner so they can appreciate the pros/cons of making the reservation at this time. I don't yet understand if there are implications for pure Legacy Point owners trying to book reservations (that might be sourced from Trust Weeks -- thus far it's simply been an Availabile/Not Available thing).

Thoughts?

Best,

Greg

It appears that they are refusing to move inventory over to the exchange pool from the Trust even though it is obvious that they have a ton of excess inventory in the Trust that cannot be reserved due to there being insufficient points sold.

This could be Marriott beginning to play hardball with the DC program. This is certainly far from surprising. After all, they have devalued MRP a number of times to the detriment of customers, and they are playing hardball with resales.

I have given them the benefit of the doubt many times. However, I have always considered Marriott to be a typical "me-first" company. I have never bought in to the philosophy that Marriott is or has ever been a customer-oriented company. They are a business, period.

That said, we should try to remember that the Trust is owned real estate. It might be that Trust owners only own a tiny fraction of each week, but the weeks are not unencumbered. It does not look like the vacation advisors are able to move inventory into the exchange pool. So, if the week you are seeking in not currently in the exchange pool, and you only have elected points, you are not going to get it even though it is sitting in the Trust completely unused (and will never be used).

I also don't buy into the anti-DC philosophy of enrolled points being less valuable than Trust points. Trust points are for Trust inventory and enrolled points are for exchange inventory. If the enrolled owner wants to reserve at his own resort, he can. If the Trust owner wants to reserve at a Trust resort, he can. If either wants to exchange his points, he can use his points for something in the exchange inventory. I guess you can claim that Trust points are more valuable. I would suggest that they are just different.

hotcoffee said:

I also don't buy into the anti-DC philosophy of enrolled points being less valuable than Trust points. Trust points are for Trust inventory and enrolled points are for exchange inventory. If the enrolled owner wants to reserve at his own resort, he can. If the Trust owner wants to reserve at a Trust resort, he can. If either wants to exchange his points, he can use his points for something in the exchange inventory. I guess you can claim that Trust points are more valuable. I would suggest that they are just different.

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I think when just comparing trust points to legacy points, trust > legacy. Trust owners truly have access to two pots of points inventory, the exchange company and the trust. Legacy owners can only access the exchange company inventory with points.

However, we always seem to forget that as legacy owners we have access to inventory at our home resorts in the weeks system. So we have access to a pool of inventory that trust owners don't. We are also guaranteed our home resort. Of course trust point owners are guaranteed a reservation within the trust resort pool, they also have far more resorts to select from within their group of owned resorts.

dioxide45 said:

I think when just comparing trust points to legacy points, trust > legacy. Trust owners truly have access to two pots of points inventory, the exchange company and the trust. Legacy owners can only access the exchange company inventory with points.

However, we always seem to forget that as legacy owners we have access to inventory at our home resorts in the weeks system. So we have access to a pool of inventory that trust owners don't. We are also guaranteed our home resort. Of course trust point owners are guaranteed a reservation within the trust resort pool, they also have far more resorts to select from within their group of owned resorts.

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I think it is more of a wash. Enrolled owners have access to MRP weeks plus any Marriott-owned weeks not in the Trust (and, of course, exchanged weeks). Also, since Trust owners are so relatively points-poor, we end up getting a lot of their inventory anyway. Our disadvantage is the lack of inventory at 13 and 12 months out. We are trying to reserve inventory before it gets dumped into the exchange pool. It is looking to me more-and-more that being able to exchange at 13 months offers little advantage over 12 months. And 12 months offers only a slight advantage over 10 months. Maybe after a few years, we will start seeing some advantages of early exchanges in DC, but there does not seem to be a lot of advantage right now. Worse, Marriott's disallowing waitlisting at 13 months means that if what you want is not there, you have no advantage at all over those who can exchange at 12 months.

I think the DC program needs some tweaking. Marriott needs to figure out a way of keeping resale weeks in the program. They need to expand their exchange options for legacy owners. And they need to figure out a better way to get Trust inventory into their exchange pool early enough to make it available to legacy owners when it is wanted.

Need certain % of Trust Points to make reservation

Hi Greg,

I'm still trying to get a OC V at Ko Olina so I'm calling each day. Today I the person I spoke with asked me if anyone explained how the percentages between trust and legacy points worked and I said no they hadn't. She explained that I needed a certain percentage of trust to legacy points to get the trust v. legacy week reservation. I had enough to get the Mt. V but not quite enough for the OC V. She did not give me the exact percentage just told me I was short by x number of points. She reiterated that if an OC V came along that originated from a legacy week I would be able to reserve that week. I was at work and needed to go so I couldn't get into as detailed a conversation as I would have liked but I'm going to ask these questions again.

Kedler

kedler said:

Hi Greg,

I'm still trying to get a OC V at Ko Olina so I'm calling each day. Today I the person I spoke with asked me if anyone explained how the percentages between trust and legacy points worked and I said no they hadn't. She explained that I needed a certain percentage of trust to legacy points to get the trust v. legacy week reservation. I had enough to get the Mt. V but not quite enough for the OC V. She did not give me the exact percentage just told me I was short by x number of points. She reiterated that if an OC V came along that originated from a legacy week I would be able to reserve that week. I was at work and needed to go so I couldn't get into as detailed a conversation as I would have liked but I'm going to ask these questions again.

Kedler

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Kedler,

Thank you -- sorry for making your situation a test case here, but its very interesting. I'm intrigued by the percentages comment -- Trust/Legacy -- please let us know if you hear more on this.

Best (and good luck!)

Greg

good morning...

This is very concerning indeed! The original explanation in the difference between Trust and Legacy buckets was that Trust owners had direct access to Trust inventory because they were owners whereas Legacy owners were "exchanging" in to Trust inventory. Now it appears that if you have a certain % of Trust points (not 100%) you can have direct access to Trust inventory.


I wonder if this is a mid game shift in position to

#1 Perpetuate the sales pitch of you need to purchase some goody points to make your legacy points better!!!

#2 An admission that many of the new Trust purchasers and Legacy enrollers just don't have enough Trust points to snag the good weeks. In Kedlars example, it was 3 years of borrowing and banking!

Hi Puckman,

After going back over my points and reservations from this year the Ko Olina reservation is made up of my some borrowed 2013 trust points (1150) and points I banked from 2011 to 2012 in anticipation of a bigger vacation (3425 - 1150 of which is trust I think).

I didn't call them yesterday as I was too busy at work but it looks like they want 50% or more of trust points to make the "trust" reservation.

I'll let you know when I find out more!

Can you not put in a "search" request in hopes of a legacy week being deposited?

Also, if a legacy only owner puts in a request at the same time a trust only owner puts in a request, and then a legacy week is deposited that matches both requests, who gets first dibs on the week?

kedler said:

. . . . I didn't call them yesterday as I was too busy at work but it looks like they want 50% or more of trust points to make the "trust" reservation. . . .

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This whole issue of basing access to the Trust to a percentage of points might be new. I have never even heard a hint of this before. I kind of like it, but also agree it might be a bone being thrown at enrolled members to encourage them to buy points (or, more points). Do you think the 50% would mean 50% of what you want to reserve, or 50% of your entire total of points?

It might possibly also signal the beginnings of some hardball by Marriott. It might signal that they plan to make the Trust inventory harder to reserve for someone who owns no Trust points at all. I can theorize that in this uncertain economy they might not be selling as many points as they had hoped. This is just a theory, of course, but the spinoff might think they can drain some more revenue from enrolled members by trying to strongly encourage us to buy points (or, more points). I hope this is not the case. But, it would not surprise me. If it were to be the case, I also would not be too surprised if they start trying to put the squeeze on non-enrolled weeks owners to get more of them into the program.

good evening...

The logic for the Trust v Legacy buckets was that Trust owners actually own the Trust wheras Legacy owners are exchangers! Thus the 2 buckets could not be merged! Now if you have whatever % of YTrust points, the Legacy points morph. This sounds a bit illegal if you believe the initial "ownership" thing!!!1

just curious!!!

sure wish we could get an official word from MVCD on this....

They are caught between a rock and a hard place here. They have to explain to newbies and Legacy owners why they should buy more points, but atthe same time explain to Legacy owners why they should enroll...

at KL I over heaard the sales rep explaining to newbies the superiority of Trust points over Legacy pts. It was a variation of the "you own everywhere shpiel" wheras those guys/gals are exchangers!!!

More confusion

Okay I took the time to ask more questions when I called today to see if I could change the view on my reservation. There is no waiting list at this point because I'm using my 13 month window (or trying anyway) to obtain the view, size unit, check-in date, etc., that we want.

The person who answered explained that the number of trust points required to make a reservation is dependent on the source of the reservation. Some reservations require 100% trust points (I could get what I want if I had enough trust points), other reservations require a mix of trust and legacy points and I guess others still require just legacy points.

She told me that my existing Ko Olina reservation originated from a mix of trust and legacy weeks so that is why I needed both trust and legacy points and why I had to borrow the 1150 from 2013 so I had enough points to make the reservation. I tried to extend it to 8 nights but even though I had enough trust points to cover the 8th night I needed a total of 2000 for the 8 night reservation and I only have 1750. Of course I have more than sufficient points total to do what I want but again I can't do it yet until there are more reservations originating from legacy points.

She acknowledged that it is a bit crazy and that owners do get frustrated by the current system but the reservations have to be made according to the original source of the available unit.

She also told me that it is her understanding that all of the trust inventory derives from unsold Marriott weeks.

l guess this method is how Marriott is assuring that the new points only owners have inventory to reserve.

I'll keep calling and asking questions and trying to get a better view!

Okay, here is my theory. What is happening is MVCI has set some internal policies and is probably empowering their VOAs to transfer inventory from the trust to the exchange company if an owner has a certain ratio of trust to legacy points. So if Kedler met the threshold of trust points to legacy points, the VOA would move the trust inventory that kelder needs to the exchange company and confirm the reservation. Since that threshold isn't met, the transfer can't happen. They may change this ratio threshold based on resort and/or the number of weeks for that resort/view still in the trust pool. Kedler may be able to get a reservation if a legacy owner comes along and deposits for points or if they change the ratio for that resort/view based on remaining unreserved trust obligations.

Marriott has made what should be a relatively painless and simple resrevation process FAR to complicated. This only hardens my stance on not converting my legacy weeks to points. In all other points based reservations systems I'm aware of, there comes a point in time where points are points and can reserve any available unit.

Marriott has decided to make their system more heavily weighted to new buyers if you want to get into the newer resorts. I suppose one could make the arguement that legacy weeks owners have the advantage at older resorts. Unfortunately, it's really hard to tell since Marriott appears to be doing a much better job of confusing owners and hiding value than either RCI or I.I. has ever done.

Marriott has moved to the bottom of the list as far as prefered systems for me. The resorts are great and we'll continue to enjoy our home resorts and make exchanges using the weeks based exchange system as we can. In the past I had considered increasing our Marriott ownership (because we enjoy the quality of resorts) and selling off some of our other ownership. At this point, I'm very glad we never acted on that impulse. I'm equally as glad that we rescinded two contracts we had signed to increase our ownership at Ocean Pointe and purchase a new week at Ocean Watch.

This should be a very simple system IMHO. There should be a "home resort" window for legacy week owners at their home resorts and trust owners for trust inventory. After that period of time, let's say two or three months, everything should be avaible via either points, legacy or trust shouldn't matter and legacy weeks exchanges. This should have been made clear from the begining and transparent to all owners. Marriott decided to go the route of guess what we'll do next, which creates misunderstand and distrust. Just a bad move by Marriott all around.

dougp26364 said:

Marriott has made what should be a relatively painless and simple resrevation. . . . This should be a very simple system IMHO. There should be a "home resort" window for legacy week owners at their home resorts and trust owners for trust inventory. After that period of time, let's say two or three months, everything should be avaible via either points, legacy or trust shouldn't matter and legacy weeks exchanges. . . . Just a bad move by Marriott all around.

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I agree the system is complicated. Remembering the deadline dates for everything almost requires a chart.

The issue of the "home resort" window though is a little problematical. In a sense, the Trust inventory I suspect will be like that now. Trust owners are relatively points-poor compared with legacy enrolled weeks owners. So, much of the Trust inventory will of necessity end up going to enrolled weeks owners (especially the Hawaiian inventory). However, most of us have gotten accustomed to reserving at 13 or 12 weeks out. When is the best time to reserve in the points system? It does not appear that 13 or 12 months is best anymore. So, how early should we reserve now if we elect points? I'd like to see better access to the Trust inventory. I think it would be better to just toss all inventory - exchanged legacy weeks, Trust weeks, MRP weeks, other Marriott-controlled weeks - into a single pot for everyone to grab beginning at 13 months.

I tried to follow and understand all this but I am left totally confused at this point. I only have legacy points. Are you saying that if I try to get a week at a partially sold out resort where they have changed over from selling deeded weeks to selling DC points that my ability to get that week will depend upon whether the source of the available week that I want is unsold Marriott inventory that is now in the trust or a deeded week that a owner turned in for either DC points, MR points or traded for another location. IF the source of the week is unsold Marriott inventory then I cannot get the week with my legacy points if that same week is also requested by a points only owner? I am so confused.

KathyPet said:

I tried to follow and understand all this but I am left totally confused at this point. I only have legacy points. Are you saying that if I try to get a week at a partially sold out resort where they have changed over from selling deeded weeks to selling DC points that my ability to get that week will depend upon whether the source of the available week that I want is unsold Marriott inventory that is now in the trust or a deeded week that a owner turned in for either DC points, MR points or traded for another location. IF the source of the week is unsold Marriott inventory then I cannot get the week with my legacy points if that same week is also requested by a points only owner? I am so confused.

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The way you described is exactly the way I understand it. The Trust is a real estate land trust under joint ownership of everyone owning points. So, even though it is a collection of many weeks at many resorts, it can be considered to be one giant resort for the purpose of reservations. Points owners have first crack at everything in the Trust. I assume that Marriott cannot just dump weeks from the Trust into either II or the DC exchange inventory until they are confident that no points owners will want it (or can get it). That is why I predict Marriott inventory in II will be less than in years past. Bulk II deposits will probably not make it there until Marriott is confident that 1) no Trust owners want it; 2) no enrolled weeks owners want it; 3) they cannot rent it.

While the program appears to have been set up to give an advantage to points buyers, I think enrolled weeks owners will end up with the biggest advantage. That is because they are the ones with enough points to get the best weeks at the best resorts. In reality, I do not see much value for points-only owners the way the program is currently configured.