Point request restriction

I have been trying to reserve a week in June at crystal shore. I had some 2012 points that were banked(4600) from 2011 that I was trying to use for the reservation. Some were points I bought and some were from my week I choice points. So I called back today to check if there was any inventory. I was told yes but the type unit it was I could only use the purchased points and not the part from my weeks units. Greet so I am still waiting and still have to call back each week to see if any unit shows up that won't be restricted. I am planing on banking my 2012 points. I don't want to use those with my 2011 banked points. Cause then I am stuck with trying to use the points from my week which isn't a full amount. The advisor told me she thought it would work out later. So guess all points are not equal.

...and buying point doesn't cure the problem.

All I can say is wow. Only with Marriott do owners have this issue or are treated this way. You have enough points, there's a unit available but, someone on Marriott's end can't manage to get the two "buckets" of points together so that you can have the reservation. I know of know other system that has this sort of an issue.

So much for making your legacy weeks point "legitimate" like the sale weasels say in their owners update.

In the end, I think many of the problems we're seeing in the early years is exceptionally poor training of Marriott employee's. Marriott decided to make the system more complicated than it needed to be, IMHO, our of greed and want for as much control as possible. As a result unsatisfactory outcomes will occur more often.

Makes me wonder...

dougp26364 said:

...So much for making your legacy weeks point "legitimate"

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One of the assurances they told me was:

"...If this new system doesn't work out, can I simply opt back out and go back to just owning and using my week?"

I was assured that I could. Now I'm wondering just what the "opt back out" process is?

..Mark

KauaiMark said:

One of the assurances they told me was:

"...If this new system doesn't work out, can I simply opt back out and go back to just owning and using my week?"

I was assured that I could. Now I'm wondering just what the "opt back out" process is?

..Mark

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With legacy weeks, unless you opt to convert to points, it's still the same minus the ala carte fee's and plus the yearly memership dues. So far I've had no problems making weekly exchanges as a member of the DC.

Right now, the issue seems to be that not all Marriott VC's are equal. Some seem to be able to comprehend an overly complex system and can meld the legacy points and trust points together. Others, not so much.

I wonder if the OP called back and talked with a different VC, maybe the next VC would be able to get the two "buckets" together. I know I've seen posts from others that indicate legacy points and trust points haven't been an issue when mixing them for one reservation.

Good afternoon

Every time I have heard of one of these tales, I have called for giggles and have had no problem with availability...

Think the VOA would be better off telling customer ,sorry nothing available as contrasted by "sorry, you need good points for this reservation". The VOA cannot tell the OP if you bought some Trust points it would be good, as the OP already did purchase some points...

Actually the advisor contacted the manager and they told her they couldnt meld the point pots together. I believe they will be able to combine them together in a couple of weeks when they have more deposits. Before you would have to call first thing at 9:00 am either 12 months or 13 months out to get your unit. Now it seems they don't have units available that far out if you are using a blend of points. They need to wait until they get more deposits in to make the reservation. So I will keep calling back. I think I will get the reservation adventurely it just a different way of booking then before.

kdorward said:

Actually the advisor contacted the manager and they told her they couldnt meld the point pots together. . . .

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Every reservation I have made with points so far has resulted from combining my Trust points and my elected points. Combining the points is not the issue.

I suspect the issue most likely is that they have not yet dumped any of the Crystal Shores weeks into the exchange inventory. All Trust inventory is "owned" by Trust owners. Most of it is excess due to there being so much more inventory than points sold. I suspect that at least some of the excess Crystal Shores inventory will end up in the exchange inventory, but probably not at 12 or 13 months out. What is there now for next June and July (if anything) is likely not from the Trust.

I don't know how Marriott can change its system to allow quicker access to the excess Trust inventory. Perhaps, they might over time develop better statistics which would allow them to predict what Trust inventory will not be reserved by Trust owners. It might be easier even now for them to predict Hawaii usage than Florida usage due to a Hawaii week being so much more expensive in terms of points. Most Trust owners cannot get a Hawaii week even if they want it; but Florida weeks might be more within reach.

kdorward said:

Actually the advisor contacted the manager and they told her they couldnt meld the point pots together. I believe they will be able to combine them together in a couple of weeks when they have more deposits. Before you would have to call first thing at 9:00 am either 12 months or 13 months out to get your unit. Now it seems they don't have units available that far out if you are using a blend of points. They need to wait until they get more deposits in to make the reservation. So I will keep calling back. I think I will get the reservation adventurely it just a different way of booking then before.

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I really hate myself for saying this but, if you didn't talk to a supervisor, then I don't think the VC did either. There have been to many tuggers post successful exchanges using both trust and legacy week points.

On the other hand, if this is the way Marroitt is going to run this thing, then legacy week owners are getting the short end of the stick all the way around. It would be a shame to believe that Marriott would stoop to such a low level as to devalue what they've already sold owners as a ploy to force them to buy more, just to keep the value promised them when they coughed up those thousands of dollars for developer priced weeks.

I have been told the same thing almost every day for weeks. I called at the 13 month point to get a points reservation to Hawaii and I was told that although I have enough total points to get the reservation I want and its available but I don't have enough trust points to make the reservation because its trust inventory and I should call back around 12 months because by then there will be more weeks deposited and more exchange inventory. I was finally able to make a reservation for a Ko Olina 2 bdrm Mt View but we really want ocean view and we would like a 3 bdrm. I have politely told each VOA I've spoken with that the system defeats the concept of "Premier" status.

I really do not see why points are not points!

Yes I have called originally called at 13 months for Crystal Shores and haven't enough trust points to make the trade. I have enough total points that I banked from 2011 into 2012(4600(2600 exchange and 2000 trust points)). They only had the unit available fortrust points. They said I could borrow my 2012 points. I don't want to do that, I want to use my 2011 banked points so I don't lose them. They said to call back at twelve months that they should have more inventory. So I did and another 90 minutes on the phone this time I demanded to talk to a supervisor. So now at 12 months out there is still no reservation available with both types of points but they told me if I call back at twelve months I could be put on a wait list for my request. Now I was told by the supervisor that I couldnt be put on a wait list because because the request would be fulfilled with 2011, 2012 and some of my 2013 trust points. The system would automatically fullfill the request with just the trust points, that I can't even go on the wait list for the request. So I can only keep calling back trying to get the request with my mixed bag of points. This point program gets worse and worse. I think you are at a disadvantage trying to use mixed points. I have spent a total of over 4 hours trying to get this one request and I am sure at another few hours will be spent.

So, as it is now, if you're a multiple week legacy owner your essentially get hossed on the so called premier status in favor of someone that buys points today. Converting my weeks to points in order to make points based reservations is becoming less attractive all the time.

10 months for less than 1 week

Is it possible that the combination of points is possible at the 10 month point because then you can make a reservation of days instead of a week? Maybe you can use enrolled points for several days and purchased points for the remaining days to make your reservation. It may explain why some folks have "combined" their points when in fact it may have been separate short week reservations. Just wondering......

kdorward said:

Yes I have called originally called at 13 months for Crystal Shores and haven't enough trust points to make the trade. I have enough total points that I banked from 2011 into 2012(4600(2600 exchange and 2000 trust points)). They only had the unit available fortrust points. They said I could borrow my 2012 points. I don't want to do that, I want to use my 2011 banked points so I don't lose them. They said to call back at twelve months that they should have more inventory. So I did and another 90 minutes on the phone this time I demanded to talk to a supervisor. So now at 12 months out there is still no reservation available with both types of points but they told me if I call back at twelve months I could be put on a wait list for my request. Now I was told by the supervisor that I couldnt be put on a wait list because because the request would be fulfilled with 2011, 2012 and some of my 2013 trust points. The system would automatically fullfill the request with just the trust points, that I can't even go on the wait list for the request. So I can only keep calling back trying to get the request with my mixed bag of points. This point program gets worse and worse. I think you are at a disadvantage trying to use mixed points. I have spent a total of over 4 hours trying to get this one request and I am sure at another few hours will be spent.

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Did you ask if you could reserve the number of nights that could be covered by your 2011-12 trust points, and then request to be waitlisted for the nights you plan to use enrolled points? Hopefully it will be possible to split the reservation request to accommodate your plan. You definitely don't want them to borrow your 2013 trust points because they will then have to be used in 2012.

I'm not planning on participating in the DC in any way, and these reports confirm that I have made the right decision.

Even if they tried, I'm not sure Marriott could have constructed a more cumbersome and confusing points system.

The DC is doomed unless significant changes are made. I predict that Spinco will go down in flames if stories like this prevail.

The problem is that they have backed themselves into a legal corner with these separate inventory pools, and there may not be a way out.

What a fiasco - way to go Marriott!

I had a superviser try everything. They tried to split the week up but there wasn't any legacy points to cover the days needed. They couldn't waitlist me even spliting up the reservation. What is really scary was when I originally went to book the week the advisor said the week was available and was booking it. If I wouldnt of asked alot of questions it would of got booked with my future trust points. They weren't even going to tell me they weren't going to use my banked points for the reservation. I still think and hope I will get my reservation later but its very disappointing with the program. The premium priority is useless if you have a mixed group of points especially for resorts that are mostly trust points.

dougp26364 said:

So, as it is now, if you're a multiple week legacy owner your essentially get hossed on the so called premier status in favor of someone that buys points today. Converting my weeks to points in order to make points based reservations is becoming less attractive all the time.

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I believe you are correct. I just sat through a sales presentation at a Marriott Resort last weekend a drilled the sales person on this very issue. They were pushing me to buy "trust points"--I already own two full weeks in the system (Hawaii, Arizona)--why would I want to pump thousands of dollars more into more points? Why? So you will have access to the "trust" inventory bucket, that you CANNOT ACCESS by converting your existing properties into "legacy points".

The bottom line, from where I sit, is this:

The economy tanked, timeshare sales have fallen WAY off, and Marriott has deceided to reinvent the wheel, screwing the very people who made their program a success UP TO THIS POINT. I bought all my timeshares directly from Marriott (mistake, but that's another story) and was told of the world of exchange oppertunities I would have. Now, in 2011, I am told that "world of exchange oppertunities" can only be accessed if I buy "trust points". If I pay the $695 fee to join the program, my existing weeks give me legacy points, which will not get you the trust points inventory--an inventory that, apparently, will only be available to those who are 1) joining for the first time and are buying TRUST points, or 2) existing owners who pony up for MORE POINTS! Exchanging my weeks for legacy points does not even give me enough points to book the very week I am trading in. I though perhaps the point system would come in handy in booking a three/four night stay vs. having to take an entire week. Look VERY carefully at their point charts: some weekends (Fri-Sat) cost as many points as you are getting for a entire week! ...and for this, you get to pay $696 (multiple weeks) to join the system and then $199/year .

Wow.

snackyx said:

If I pay the $695 fee to join the program, my existing weeks give me legacy points, which will not get you the trust points inventory--an inventory that, apparently, will only be available to those who are 1) joining for the first time and are buying TRUST points, or 2) existing owners who pony up for MORE POINTS!

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It's true that there are two pools on DC points inventory. Unfortunately, Marriott Vacation Club has not done a good job explaining the difference, or how the difference affects owners in each category, or why there has to be difference for the program to be fair and legal.

Despite what some Marriott salespeople have told Legacy owners in an effort to sell Trust Points to them (according to reports on this forum), "existing owners who pony up for MORE POINTS" do not suddenly gain access to Trust inventory with their Legacy ownership, only with their new Trust Points

Also, if a Marriott salesperson claims that enrolled owners have no access to Trust inventory, that's technically correct, but it's misleading. Enrolled owners do have access to Trust inventory that's swapped into the Legacy exchange pool. Without such swaps, Trust owners would have no access to older properties.

Instead of thinking of Trust Points and Legacy Points, think of them as two pools of inventory represented by Trust Points and Legacy Exchange Points.

The good news is that inventory can move back and forth between the two pools. However, the move must be initiated from the Trust side. At first glance, that may seem like preferential treatment for Trust owners at the expense of Legacy owners. But it really has to do with what kind of ownership each pool represents and who has access to it.

The owned inventory in the Trust is sort of a real estate "mutual fund." The Trust DC point owners can do things with Trust inventory, proportionate to their ownership interest. Among other things, they can use it, trade through II, trade for Marriott Reward points, or trade through the legacy owner exchange pool.

The Legacy Exchange Pool is specifically set up to for trading. In a way, it's Marriott's own version of Interval International, except that the metric for exchanges involves DC points, not weeks. The only inventory in this pool comes from Legacy owners who opt for points for a particular year rather than using their week in a traditional way (occupy, exchange through II, rent out, etc.).

Someone who does not own a piece of the Trust cannot simply grab something out of the Trust, even if they provide something of value in return. It's not exchange inventory; it's Trust inventory.

If I, as a Legacy owner, opt for DC points instead of using my week to stay where I own, I've effectively deposited that week into the exchange pool with the expectation that it will be used for exchanges.

I think that explains why moving inventory out of the Trust can be initiated by Trust owners, but not by legacy owners. However, in the end, Trust inventory does get into the legacy owner exchange pool whenever a Trust owner initiates such as swap.

In the long run, the success of Marriott Vacation Club depends on Marriott's ability to keep owners satisfied. That includes not only running excellent timeshare resorts, but now also running an excellent, points-based reservation and exchange system for Trust owners and Legacy owners.

Three disclaimers/comments: (1) I am not a lawyer. (2) My understanding is that the explanation above is correct, but it's a bit more complicated (including Marriott's ability to swap inventory with II), and I could be missing something. (3) This reply is partially edited from some of my replies in this thread: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145119

Excellent explanation/clarification - thanks Werner.

So reading Werners response above I have to ask a question. Lets say a resort is sold our or near sold out to legacy owners. Lets say resort X. Lets say both Bob and Phil opt to elect points for their usage year thus releasing their weeks at resort X to the trust. Lets say David comes along and wants to check in Wednesday to Wednesday. Will that be permitted? Would that not suck up two weeks of legacy inventory for an owner that owns about a weeks worth of points? Do we then think that his basic weeks worth of points will be at some point converted to a week and deposited in to the legacy pool for legacy trading? If so where would Bob and Phil get two weeks back to use if only one week from the trust was sent over to legacy?

OR do they simply tell David that the days he wants to check in are not available and only Fri, Sat and Sun are available for check in thus preserving the two weeks by not allowing David to straddle two weeks?

I think a college degree is required for this system.

mkahanek said:

Lets say a resort is sold our or near sold out to legacy owners. Lets say resort X. Lets say both Bob and Phil opt to elect points for their usage year thus releasing their weeks at resort X to the trust. Lets say David comes along and wants to check in Wednesday to Wednesday. Will that be permitted? Would that not suck up two weeks of legacy inventory for an owner that owns about a weeks worth of points? Do we then think that his basic weeks worth of points will be at some point converted to a week and deposited in to the legacy pool for legacy trading? If so where would Bob and Phil get two weeks back to use if only one week from the trust was sent over to legacy?

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Bob and Phil, in this example, are not "releasing their weeks at resort X to the trust." As enrolled owners, they are each depositing 7 nights into the DC Legacy Exchange Pool (not into the Trust).

If hundreds of other enrolled Legacy owners (not just Bob and Phil) at resort X opt for DC points, there will be a sizable amount of inventory for resort X in the DC Legacy Exchange Pool. It becomes meaningless that some deposited weeks began on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. They back up against each other, so stays can begin and end on any day of the week.

Other enrolled Legacy owners can book those nights with their points, or Trust owners can book with their points (in which case Marriott Vacation Club will move over Trust inventory into the Legacy Exchange pool, corresponding to the same number of points. (That Trust inventory is then in the DC Legacy Exchange Pool, where it's available just like any other inventory in the DC Legacy Exchange Pool.)

Because of the flexibility of vacations beginning and ending of any day on the week and being of any length, there will be some percentage of "orphan" nights that go unused. Surprisingly, Marriott Vacation Club has never used this fact to explain why the so-called "skim" is justifiable as a necessity to make the system stay "whole."

mkahanek said:

I think a college degree is required for this system.

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Yes, it is complicated if you look below the surface. The people who run Marriott Vacation Club have chosen to hide the complexity as much as possible. Instead, they're promoting the benefits of "greater flexibility, further personalization and more experience opportunities."

To the extent that inventory flows between the two inventory categories and Trust owners and enrolled Legacy owners get the vacations they want, hiding some of the complexity is fine. However, it puts Vacation Ownership Advisors in a difficult position of having to tell enrolled Legacy owners that there's currently no availability at newer resorts such as Crystal Shores for 12-13 months out, even though there's plenty of availability in the Trust — but if they waitlist, they might get it.

Werner provides an excellent explanation of the system, but what I think is missing is that currently Marriott is the single largest owner of Trust Points. As a result there will likely be insufficient reservation requests from Trust Points owners for Legacy Points properties to balance against requests from Legacy Points owners. Accordingly, in this early stage Marriott as the largest owner of Trust Points should be doing sufficient inventory management to fulfill Legacy Points reservation requests. Once a large portion of the Trust Points are sold, there will be larger requests from Trust Point owners to trade in to the Legacy Point pool - hopefully balancing the system a bit better.

Bottom line is that at this stage, Marriott holds much of the Trust Points power and they seem to have failed to adequately plan for and address the above described imbalance or have chosen not to (as it's not entirely clear how strong their incentive to address this issue is).

ocdb8r said:

. . . Bottom line is that at this stage, Marriott holds much of the Trust Points power and they seem to have failed to adequately plan for and address the above described imbalance or have chosen not to (as it's not entirely clear how strong their incentive to address this issue is).

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I agree with what you have said here. Since Marriott controls the vast majority of the weeks in the Trust, there is no reason for them to not be more agressive in moving inventory into their exchange pool. Some of the issues would, I believe, go away if they primed their exchange pool with some of the excess Trust inventory at 13 months.

I also think that people might not fully understand the concept of a real estate land trust. My understanding of a land trust is that it is community real estate that it titled to and managed by a trustee on behalf of the beneficiaries which are its real owners. If you are not an beneficiary, you would not normally receive any benefit. So, the more of the trust one owns, the greater his benefit.

What is wrong with the Marriott model is that Marriott itself owns most of the Trust, and they are not readily sharing what they own with their weeks customers who joined the DC program.

As noted, when Trust owners exchange their points, some of that Trust inventory should in theory be moved into the exchange inventory. However, at this time, there are probably not enough Trust owners to get much of that inventory into the exchange pool early enough for weeks owners who are used to exchanging at 12 or 13 months.

If over time, Marriott sells enough points to stay afloat (which I am not at all optimistic about), we should see more and more Trust inventory in the exchange inventory because of Trust owner exchanges.

The problem with 13 month availability to trust inventory is a flaw with how the program is designed. Trust inventory can't move in to the exchange company until a trust owner makes a reservation that uses legacy inventory. The problem is that the earliest a trust owner can make a reservation is 13 months. Pure trust owners are also points poor, meaning there are very few that own enough points to make 13 month reservations.

Another issue is that many legacy owners aren't used to making a decision what to do with their weeks until the 13 month mark. So other than those that have borrowed points from a future year, how many people have bothered to call and convert their weeks to points between months 25 and 13? Probably not many.